Mastaaaaah Foce!

[Onslaught Six]

As I posted in the June Hauls thread, I received Shout Factory's Masterforce DVD in the mail as a gift, probably from my mother, and started watching it the other night. And I decided I'd do episode-by-episode thoughts!

Masterforce is, by far, the most interesting of the "Takara Trilogy" to me. It cleans the slate from Headmasters' ending and from the previous four years of TF cartoon continuity. While Headmasters dealt with all of the hanging threads from the US Season 3 and had the task of introducing all the Headmasters and Targetmasters, Masterforce's clean break makes it really easy for a newcomer to get into the series.

And that clean break is Masterforce's greatest strength and, so far, also its biggest falling. Part of the reason the break works is because Masterforce introduces some very fundamentally different ideas about Transformers--the main characters at the beginning are all Pretenders, and later, human Headmasters. One problem with introducing these kind of characters is that they can sometimes seem overpowered or too far removed from existing characters that they feel out of place, or it's difficult to use them efficiently. By cutting out previous characters, everything begins on a level playing field. The Pretenders don't seem out of place because, at the start of the series, 'all' of the Autobots are Pretenders, and they can all do this.

Unfortunately, it's also a huge drawback to the series, because while longtime fans like myself are ready to go with a new and different interpretation of TF (and have actually been reading about this series for years beforehand!), some casual fans might be turned off because there's no Optimus Prime, no Bumblebee, no Megatron, no Starscream. There's no built-in nostalgia fuel, there's no quick attachment. It's easy to get into Headmasters because the beginning has Optimus Prime and Galvatron and Hot Rod, characters who are familiar to people who've at least seen the American cartoon, or the animated movie. Starting over essentially from scratch means a lot is riding on these initial episodes to make a lasting impression that'll rope in new viewers. (The subtitles don't help, mind you, but hey.) Thankfully for Masterforce, I've been onboard for this series since I first discovered the Optimus Prime toy I had was actually a character named Ginrai in Japan in 2002.

Some more quick brief thoughts: The opening and ending, at least for the early episodes (I don't know if they change them as the show goes on) are just atrocious. Visually, they're not bad, but the songs are just...not good at all. I know that their fare is standard for anime of the 80s, but there are way better 80s anime themes. Why couldn't we have gotten something as good as the Saint Seiya theme, for example? I've resorted to skipping through the intro and ending of each episode.

You also might have heard there was some mild "Americanisation" of the names, and it's true, to a degree. But thankfully, it's not damaging in any way and seems to have been done in the interest of appeasing those who had the toys. Japanese exclusive characters like Ginrai and Metalhawk retain their names--there's no attempt to make Ginrai into "Powermaster Optimus Prime and Hi-Q," for example. On the other hand, more minor characters like Diver and Phoenix have had their names changed to their American versions (in this case, Waverider and Cloudburst). The Autobot Headmaster Juniours retain their Japanese names, probably because they're actually humans, but the Decepticon counterparts don't share the same luxury, so we get humans referred to as Fangry and Squeezeplay. (I'm only a few episodes into this, so I'm not sure if they have separate human names in the subs.) Hydra and Buster retain their Japanese names, probably because those two toys actually differ from their US releases as Dreadwind and Darkwing. I haven't gotten to Overlord's bits yet, but I'm guessing he's called Overlord there, as it should be. Honestly, this doesn't really bother me as much as you'd think it would. The major characters are all called by their proper names, and guys like Landmine and Waverider don't exactly have much American fiction to begin with to conflict with. It is a little jarring to clearly pick out a Japanese speaker saying "Diver" and see subtitles that say "Waverider," though, but I suspect this is a personal problem.

For simplicity's sake I won't be using certain Japanese terminology in these reviews. Cybertrons become Autobots, Destrons become Decepticons, Seibertron becomes Cybertron. As much as this is a reversal of my purity towards stuff like Ginrai and Metalhawk, these are the terms everyone here is familiar with, and more importantly, there's no actual difference between the two terms.

Anyway, enough BSing, and onto the actual episodes. Summaries exist on TFWiki, so I won't be giving a play-by-play of what happens, just noting things that interest me or stand out.

Episode 1: Rise Up!! Pretenders
Aaaaand it begins. The Decepticons make themselves known, the Autobots stop them. We get basic explanations of the Pretenders and how they've been on Earth for ages. I can't remember how much of the specifics are told in this episode, but according to Metalhawk, the Autobot ship containing "the Autobots" crashed onto Earth as a result of a space battle millions of years ago, when "cavemen still ruled." They disguised themsleves as humans and the Decepticons disguised themselves as "demons" to terrorize humans. Apparently they sealed the Decepticons (of which there are three at the beginning--Bomb-Burst, Submarauder and Skullgrin) in different places on Earth. Recently there was a cosmic event and they all escaped, forcing the Autobots to come out of hiding. Pretty basic stuff. Sets the tone for the series. Good start.

Episode 2: Terror! The Decepticons' Manhunt
This episode introduces Cab, a wild boy from some island. I've been calling him Mowgli, because Cab is a dumb name and this is a dumb character. Unfortunately, we're gonna be stuck with him for a long time. He's not really 'that' annoying, mind, and this is a series that revolves almost entirely around the idea of humans becoming Transformers--so I came prepared. Besides, anime has a tendency to make these kind of characters work over the long run.

Shuta's dad dies in a Decepticon attack and they move to a new Autobot base. This is a major thing because it quickly establishes that Characters Can Die in this series. When my girlfriend saw this, she was a little impressed. This episode has a lot more action than the previous. It keeps the momentum going.

Episode 3: Kidnapping!? The Targeted Jumbo Jet
In the last episode, the Decepticons started turning people into zombies using mysterious powers. This is apparently a major plot element, because in this episode, they're trying to find a scientist whose biological experiments would help them control the zombies better. The Autobots investigate, and Shuta and Mowgli befriend a young girl, Minerva, who decides to go to their school and live with them...because the plot demands it.

Obviously the show is moving pieces around so they can be used later, since there's absolutely no reason for Minerva to transfer there. (Also, I keep writing her name as Minverva. So I'm probably just going to call her that.) In Mowgli's intro episode, his grandfather/butler/whatever says he received a letter from the "International School of Japan" inviting him to attend. So he has an excuse. Minverva just up and decides she should go to that school and live in Japan also. Because the team needs a girl.

Episode 4: Birth! Headmaster Jrs
This is where the show starts to get good--or at least, it starts to focus on what the plot is actually going to be about. Metalhawk reveals that Shuta, Mowgli and Minverva are all going to get the famous Masterforce Bracelets and the ability to become Headmasters, with Transtectors and everything. The explanation given is that the Autobots knew the Decepticons (who seem to be just these three dudes and the Seacons, who have shown up periodically across the last few eps) would show up again, and invented a way for humans to help them fight alongside Autobots. So, for as much crap as I give the kids, the Autobots have at least recruited them and made them full-fledged Transformer bodies so they can fight alongside them. Metalhawk says they're only a rescue team for now, though--when they're ready, they can take on Decepticons. Metalhawk received the Transtectors from Chromedome, who makes a cameo appearance and says that the Decepticon war in space is escalating so he doesn't have many resources.

Meanwhile, the Decepticons have recruited a biker gang that I'm going to call Crash And The Boys. "I'm Crash, and these are the Boys." "Is that girl a boy too?" "Yes." (Upon some quick research, it turns out Cancer/Squeezeplay isn't a girl at all. Whoops! Now my joke sucks.)

I guess they used to be in charge of a bosozoku (Japanese motorcycle gang; note, I am not a weeaboo) until some dude who looks like Kuwabara from Yu Yu Hakusho kicked their asses and became the new leader. The Decepticons stole some of Chromedome's shipment of Transtectors which they either rebuilt, or are inexplicably shaped like monsters, and give them to Crash and The Boys. Why? Because the plot demands it. (Early episodes, I'm giving you a pass, and also by this point I was kind of fading out of it. I'm coming down with a cold, can you blame me?)

Anyway, Crash and the Boys take their new Transtectors (who are Fangry, Squeezeplay and Horri-Bull) and start wrecking shit. The Autobots head out and take the kid trio with them, who are doing a rescue mission when Crash and The Boys start beating the crap out of them. And then Metalhawk shows up and they run away.

This is good, though. It's obvious that Crash And The Boys aren't horrible people, and are probably going to have a redeeming arc. But right now, they serve as great foil to the Headmaster Juniours.

Episode 5: Rage!! Little Devils with No Need for Rules
The Juniours head to America to hang out with Waverider who's going to train them to be awesome in their robot suits. Shuta and Mowgli get the hang of this thing pretty quick but Minverva is having issues, because she's a girl and afraid of things. Later, Decepticons attack, and Minverva witnesses Crash and The Boys kill a little girl's puppy, which inspires her to kick some ass. It's a standard tale about Believing In Yourself. We get to see Crash and The Boys kill a dog though! That's fucked up.

And I fell asleep during the next episode. So, there you go, the first five episodes of Masterforce, briefly talked about. Yes, I'm obviously not taking this very seriously, because it's early going on and I have to keep myself entertained while this setup happens. In a few episodes, we get Buster and Hydra and Ginrai, so that's when things will kickstart.

[andersonh1]

I've been looking for this on DVD since finishing Headmasters last fall, but hadn't seen it online or anywhere. Time to start looking again I see, I'd love to watch it.

[BWprowl]

You titled this topic exactly what I would have called it.

Alright, I’m so ordering this off Amazon once I get home (along with the second Marvel UK compilation, I’ve been needing that thing), but I’ve actually already seen like the first ten episodes or so of Masterforce, so hey!

Quick question first: If you haven’t gotten to the episodes they’re in yet, how do you know Buster, Hydra, and Ginrai are still called that in the subtitles? The schizophrenic naming choices for this thing are already kind of bugging me, and I haven’t even watched it (they should really just go one way or the other between Eastern and Western names, rather than trying to go both ways about it. What criteria are they even using to decide who keeps which names?)

Screw you, Cab is awesome. I actually find his and Shuta’s antics more entertaining than Minerva’s (dang, you’re right, her name is tough to type properly) business, despite the fact that I love all the Headmaster Juniors to some degree (with the exception of Bullhorn, who I really don’t care about that much). I’m also genuinely surprised that you thought Cancer was a girl, he never struck me as terribly feminine. How long have you been under this impression?

Really, the most fucked-up part of the murdered puppy episode (besides the fact that the dog’s name was Piss) was the way Minerva cheered the little girl up at the end by promising to replace her dead puppy with a new one who was exactly the same! That’s just…what?

I had honestly forgotten about Shuta’s dad getting killed in the second episode, damn. I’ll tear through all of these again once I get the set, it’s been a couple years.

The most annoying part is the way watching this is going to make me want to drop a ton of cash on old, hard-to-come-by toys. And I’ve already really wanted a God Ginrai for years!

So…how human *are* the Pretenders, anyway? I mean, what does Lander DO with those women once he gets them home? (For that matter, he also collects and presumably drinks wines, and I’m pretty sure we see Diver at a table eating dinner at one point. What the hell?)

[Tigermegatron]

I've seen all three Takara Japanese G-1 Exclusive cartoon series. Headmasters I loved the best. Masterforce was awesome due to it's violence & awesome fighting art. TF Victory was pure awful,booring & it felt like it was aimed for toddlers viewers.

[Onslaught Six]

I've been looking for this on DVD since finishing Headmasters last fall, but hadn't seen it online or anywhere. Time to start looking again I see, I'd love to watch it.

It's on Amazon. It came out at the beginning of May.

You titled this topic exactly what I would have called it.

Alright, I’m so ordering this off Amazon once I get home (along with the second Marvel UK compilation, I’ve been needing that thing), but I’ve actually already seen like the first ten episodes or so of Masterforce, so hey!

Bonus!

Quick question first: If you haven’t gotten to the episodes they’re in yet, how do you know Buster, Hydra, and Ginrai are still called that in the subtitles? The schizophrenic naming choices for this thing are already kind of bugging me, and I haven’t even watched it (they should really just go one way or the other between Eastern and Western names, rather than trying to go both ways about it. What criteria are they even using to decide who keeps which names?)

TFWiki. Their analysis (and I'd agree with it) seems to be that they went with American names for any character whose toy was available in the US, largely unchanged. Darkwind and Dreadwing are both really recognizable US characters and their toys are different from Buster and Hydra. Landmine's toy was identical, and he wasn't important in the comics or anything.

Also, calling Ginrai "Hi-Q" wouldn't make any sense anyway since they don't even have that trademark anymore. They even called him Ginrai in their own reissue!

Screw you, Cab is awesome. I actually find his and Shuta’s antics more entertaining than Minerva’s (dang, you’re right, her name is tough to type properly) business, despite the fact that I love all the Headmaster Juniors to some degree (with the exception of Bullhorn, who I really don’t care about that much). I’m also genuinely surprised that you thought Cancer was a girl, he never struck me as terribly feminine. How long have you been under this impression?

Since the first time Cancer showed up onscreen. The voice and the hair!

Despite wanting to see Masterforce for years, I've tried to remain blissfully unaware of things that actually happen in it. Because, you know, spoilers, I guess. I figured when I got the series, I'd want to know.

Really, the most fucked-up part of the murdered puppy episode (besides the fact that the dog’s name was Piss) was the way Minerva cheered the little girl up at the end by promising to replace her dead puppy with a new one who was exactly the same! That’s just…what?

Yeah I don't know. And her name is clearly supposed to be Peace! They're Asians, they don't know how to pronounce things.

The most annoying part is the way watching this is going to make me want to drop a ton of cash on old, hard-to-come-by toys. And I’ve already really wanted a God Ginrai for years!

Tell me about it!

So…how human *are* the Pretenders, anyway? I mean, what does Lander DO with those women once he gets them home? (For that matter, he also collects and presumably drinks wines, and I’m pretty sure we see Diver at a table eating dinner at one point. What the hell?)

I...don't know. They could, presumably, fake digesting food and such. As for the other thing...I dunno.

[BWprowl]

Alright, I actually started watching the show! I’ve actually already seen all these episodes already, but whatever!

Yeah, the theme song is…not great. It’s relaxed, too lighthearted. I’m tempted to find a ‘cooler’ j-rock song and overlay it over the Masterforce opening animation just to prove a cooler intro can be made. Not all the music’s bad though, that song that plays over the ending of the first couple episodes (including that BADASS scene of all the Autobot Pretenders WALKING AWAY FROM THE SUNSET DRAMATICALLY) is pretty cool.

The subs are…kind of all over the place and not particularly great, especially when it comes to names. The Autobot Headmaster Jrs keep their Japanese names, but the Decepticon ones get their American ones, what? Things are especially weird in the case of Cancer: The boss subtitles he gets when he first changes to robot mode label him ‘Squeezeplay’, but then the one time someone calls his name it’s rendered as ‘Plague’, which I guess *could* be a really weird alternate interpretation of ‘Cancer’. And looking at the titles of episodes inside the case, they keep right on using ‘Cancer’ as a name. Huh, I guess we’ll see. Other than that, the subs are inconsistent about even rendering translations for callouts like ‘Transform’ and ‘Head On!’, and I’m pretty sure they were just discussing ‘Energy’ not ‘Energon’ in that bit about the three kinds. On the other hand, the subs actually rendering the Decepticons’ mystical nonsense language as they speak it is patently hilarious. As a side note, the back of the box makes it seem like they’re going to be going with the ‘Cybertron’ and ‘Destron’ faction names, only to end up just going with the Western labels in the actual subs. Whatevs, onto thoughts on individual episodes:

1. Rise up!! Pretenders
One thing I like about this beginning is that it establishes that Hawk and Shuta the Shota have been friends for a while. It gives Shuta an actual reason to want to hang out with the Autobots once they’re revealed, as opposed to the ‘robots are cool and I’m the kid-identification character’ that so many other human sidekicks pull in TF series. It also lets them get some decent mileage out of the older brother relationship Shuta has with Hawk, making it seem more believable that Shuta could end up on the same team ‘working’ for him. But that all happens later, so. Shuta’s pretty cool, for an obligatory squishy sidekick. He’s got some serious skills on that bike of his, and while yes, the kid getting overexcited and rushing into the battle zone to be endangered is practically its own TF-specific cliché, but again it works here because we know Shuta is actually close with Hawk and can be genuinely concerned about him. Other than that, a decent first episode showcasing most of the other Pretenders and their abilities, if not their personalities (though there is a fun bit with Lander/Landmine having to leave his date, and the squabbling between Dauros/Skullgrin and Blood/Bomb-Burst that makes it seem like even though the latter is technically the leader, that Gilmer/Submarauder is the one who really has a handle on the team. It’ll be interesting to see if they go anywhere else with that later.)

It’s kind of annoyingly tricky to tell which Decepticon Pretenders are which when they’re all in their similarly-shaped robot modes, particularly since none of their robot mode colors correspond to their shells.

Lander totally wears his glasses when he’s got his Pretender armor on! That amuses me for some reason!

2. Terror! Stupid zombie plots were being shoehorned into everything even in the late eighties!
Things move forward a bit here, introducing Cab. Six, forget Mowgli, Cab is clearly Ma-Ti. A hardcore Ma-Ti who can ninja flash-step across tree tops and will SLIT YOUR FUCKING THROAT if you piss him off. It’s kind of funny seeing him understandably freak out when some dudes show up in power armor and morph into robots to trash his forest, and then those same dudes show up to attempt diplomatic negotiations or whatever. And then he runs away in panic just before Phoenix/Cloudburst/Friggin’ Wolverine shows up, himself in full power armor, in a situation that might have necessitated the explanation that Cab really needed to hear right then. But everything works out. Well, kind of, Shuta’s dad still dies, in a startling display of good planning on Blood’s part (lure the Autobots away so he can take out the base where they and their scientist buddies have been giving them trouble from), but this’ll give Shuta and the other kids motivation/reasoning for joining the fight against the Decepticons in the coming episodes, so it works.

The Decepticon Pretenders seem to have shrunk in the wash in this episode. They were portrayed as fairly large in their shells in the first episode, but can all fit comfortably in a hospital morgue here. Their size will continue to fluctuate as things continue.

3. Get the door, it’s Minerva time
Holy shit, Cab continues to get more awesome. Did you see this bangin’ treehouse he apparently built himself? This thing is larger and nicer than my apartment! Kid does nothing halfway. This episode has the kind of hilarious context of something mysterious/evil happening and the Autobots not being sure if it’s the Decepticons or not. Of course it is, it’s a Transformers cartoon! So they go to investigate some plane disappearances, but since there are two kids now, they can’t just ride inside of Hawk, so Cab and Shuta have to catch an actual civilian plane to get to the plot locale, which I find funny for some reason. There they meet Minerva, who really seems to be trying to get into Shuta and/or Cab’s pants, with her coy teasing remarks and declarations of how hot she is (adolescent hormones, I tell ya). Of course, it seems like it may all be teasing anyway, since she disses on them at the end of this episode and Hawk makes fun of the boys for lacking mojo, but whatever. Anyway, Minerva also turns out to be a huge weeaboo, wanting to go to Japan and learn their glorious superior dancing. Another good point here was the Autobots thinking to send the two guys who can fly on a mission to protect a plane.

4. The reason the Pretenders got so little development so far! Headmaster Jrs
Even by Transformers anime standards, these establishing episodes have been heavy on the human sidekick focus, and here we find out why: These kids really are the main characters, and here they’re going to become Headmasters so they can carry that role as proper Transformers. It’s a pretty bold shift; a radically different thing for a TF show to do that I don’t think has been replicated since. This episode is rather light on story content, instead focusing on what the Headmaster Jrs are, how they work, and where these powers came from. It also makes a point of showing that just because a main character gets put in a fancy new toy, they aren’t going to be an instant expert at Cybertronian warfare. The Decepticon Headmasters are used mainly as diversionary berserkers (Blood’s crew rightfully not trusting some punk kids to do ‘real’ Decepticon work) while Shuta, Cab, and Minerva start out as a lightly tasked rescue force. One thing I want to say right away is that I really like the Headmaster suit designs. They’re deliciously 80’s superhero anime-style with a mecha flair, the visors in particular calling Gatchaman/Battle for the Planet to mind. Notably, the Autobot Headmasters all have open-face eye-visors, while the Decepticon guys all have full face-screens. It’s also worth noting just how much the Decepticon Headmasters do not fuck around. They trash a good chunk of the city, knocking in buildings and tossing cars around, and while none is shows, it makes me wonder how many victims are involved. It drives home a point that despite being humans that were potentially manipulated into joining the Decepticons, these guys are not even remotely nice guys. They nearly killed a baby! Dude! Speaking of which, it’s nice to see Shuta nearly fail at something like that, and having to learn that there will be consequences to engaging in a war like this…until he promptly forgets his lesson for the next episodes.

5. Dead Puppy
What the hell is up with that title card with Shuta and Cab in the sparkly suits no seriously?!

The animation in this episode is kind of…not great. I mean, it’s a kids’ anime in the eighties, I hardly expect gorgeous artwork, but things seem even more down here, including some mix-ups involving some Seacons, particularly which ones are out and how many there are. Some weird bits in this episode: The kids spend the episode in America training with Diver/Waverider, where they end up running into Wilder/Fangry, as he and the gang he used to command are apparently from here. This brings up the always tricky subject of language. Is Wilder American? So why can he speak Japanese and communicate with the Autobot Headmasters easily enough? To say nothing of the little girl Minerva saves who she talks to just fine (though considering Minerva’s foreign, and a diplomat’s daughter besides, she could be explained as being multilingual). These things’ll get more confusing in the next episode, which also takes place in America.

I maintain the ending of this one is still supremely messed up. The little girl’s dog dies, Minerva tells her to cheer up because she’ll buy her a new dog to replace the old one, then Shuta says everything turned out just fine (despite the whole dog dying thing) and he, Cab, and Diver all laugh about it AT THE DOG’S FUNERAL. What the hell?

That said, ‘The Cool Guys’ is such a hilariously awesome name for a motorcycle gang that I can’t help but at least enjoy that about this episode.

6. Shuta Fucks Up Again! Mary Chris-mas!
It’s a better episode than the previous one! Still in America, the kids run into the sister of a guy who used to be in Wilder’s gang, but decided he wanted out when the evil alien robots got involved (can’t imagine why). So they go to save him, and we get a little development for Wilder on why he’s such a bastard (because ADULTS ARE MEAN AND HAVE RULES!) and Shuta gets to learn AGAIN that maybe charging in and trying to fight three stronger Decepticons when lives are at stake is a bad idea, not sure if this lesson is ever going to stick. At least Minerva’s learned to be pretty effective in combat, particularly with how effective her weapon can be when used right. She’s got her shit together at this point, doing a decent job of coordinating Chris’s rescue and helping everyone get out of there at the right time, and these are traits I appreciate in characters. They’re at least showing growth with the Headmaster Jrs, this episode being good about that, what with going into Wilder’s character a little bit and showing Shuta learning what a fuckup he still is. It’ll be interesting to see how much of this continues.

And that’s where I left off for the night. Overall thoughts: I do really like how seriously different a TF series this is. It’s interesting they set up the first episode to seem like Metalhawk and the Pretenders will be the Autobots we follow, only to turn around about as Shuta’s dad dies and start focusing on he and the other kids’ development into ‘true’ Autobot heroes, and how Cybertronians on both sides effectively conscripting humans into their ranks would change the way these things work. It solidifies the idea that the majority of the ‘real’ Cybertronian forces are off fighting the war in space, and the sides left on Earth have to make creative use of resources to hold the planet. It’s also nice to have human characters in a TF series that really DO something, rather than sit on the sidelines and spout encouragement. Shuta, Cab, and Minerva are clearly the main characters of the show, and them actually getting to be Transformers in their own right means they can do so without being obtrusive to the focal point of the franchise. Stuff like this is what makes Masterforce stand out, and made guys like me interested in seeing it for so long.

I almost never see anyone talk about it, but I wonder how some of the more…less open to change and new stuff branches of the fandom feel about Masterforce.

Hawk has some seriously fly taste in suits.

Also, goddamn are there a lot of panty shots of Cab so far in this show.

[Dominic]

I only saw a couple of episodes of "Master Force" years ago. There were on a bootlegged tape that either myself of Honey Bear had purchased.

I really did not think much of this or "Zone". The "Master Force" episodes were *really* badly dubbed. They felt like late 70s, early 80s dubs more than even mid to late 80s dubs. (The fact that I was watching them circa 2000 did not help much.)

Besides the bad dubbing, I was not much liking the series itself. The kids were better than other human characters in TF during the 80s. But, there was still not good in-story reasoning for children to be involved in an interplanetary war.

I do recall being struck by the violence of the series, particularly the number of human civilians that shown to have been injured or killed. G1 had a few episodes like that, ("Megatron's Master Plan" comes to mind). But, I got the general impression that "Master Force" was much bloodier, which was particularly jarring given that I would also have been watching boot-legged BW2 at the time.

As for the specific question of "being open to change", I am assuming you mean "how do people feel about TF withoug Prime, Megatron and such".

From what I recall in the late 90s, (conversations on ATT and at BotCon '98 and '99), the fans were okay with it. I think that it was a function of "Master Force" being Japanese (and thus "awshum") as well as it being part of that mysterious run of episodes that many of us only heard about in rumour and whisper when the US series was long in re-runs. (It was a *new* TF cartoon. Even without subbing/dubbing, that would have been enough to win over a good chunk of the early fandom.)

Seriously, you guys have no idea how lucky you are as fans to have missed that time.


Dom
-notes that the Japanese do not seem to think much of dogs in general.

[Onslaught Six]

[quote=This brings up the always tricky subject of language. Is Wilder American? So why can he speak Japanese and communicate with the Autobot Headmasters easily enough? To say nothing of the little girl Minerva saves who she talks to just fine (though considering Minerva’s foreign, and a diplomat’s daughter besides, she could be explained as being multilingual). These things’ll get more confusing in the next episode, which also takes place in America.[/quote]

Things are just going to get messier when Ginrai comes along, who is, from what I understand, either an American living in Japan or a Japanese guy living in America. Of anything else, I'm really interested in his character! Maybe it's just my own lack of research but I don't quite have a handle on 'who' Ginrai is. Is he reckless and stupid, like Hot Rod or Shuta? Or is he self-respecting and honourable, like...Optimus Prime? (Metalhawk seems to be in that role here, so.) Or is he like Big Convoy, in that he's a dick who doesn't want to do anything, but does because it's the Right Thing, and learns to be compassionate and a Good Leader throughout the series?

But yeah, language barriers are something that's rarely brought up in media. Any time a character is in a foreign setting, everyone just automatically speaks English for most of the movie. Why? Because! At least Johnny Mnemonic had a great bit of dialogue--the main bad guys are Yakuza corporation guys, right? One of the minions goes up to the head honcho guy (who is played by Takeshi Kitano, better known in the US for being the host of Takeshi's Castle which became SpikeTV's MXC!) and they trade some dialogue in Japanese until Takeshi goes, "Your Japanese is terrible! You disrespect the language. Speak to me in English."

I'm hoping to get back onto this tonight or tomorrow. Ginrai, man!

[BWprowl]

Besides the bad dubbing, I was not much liking the series itself. The kids were better than other human characters in TF during the 80s. But, there was still not good in-story reasoning for children to be involved in an interplanetary war.

Well, the idea is that the Autobots and Decepticons both need troops that their respective armies simply can't supply at the time, so they improvise with the Transtectors and any humans they can get to drive them. Shuta and the kids get involved because at that point the Autobots just need a rescue team, which would (theoretically) be out of the way of actual combat, and the kids are eager to help out anyway and hell, if they want to train humans to be able to defend themselves in the future, might as well start with a younger generation, right? With the Decepticons, I think it was more a case of stupid kids being easier to coerce into acting as their dumb muscle.

As for the specific question of "being open to change", I am assuming you mean "how do people feel about TF withoug Prime, Megatron and such".

I was actually mainly referring to the whole 'humans as Transformers' schtick. It's a HUGE departure from what Transformers traditionally 'are', making the series closer to a piloted mecha series than one about aliens fighting a civil war. Transfans already have this bizarre, knee-jerk pathological hatred of human characters (never understood it and it's actually mildly disturbing to me, honestly), so it seems like they *really* wouldn't take kindly to the humans being the main characters and the 'Transformers' of a given series.

Seriously, you guys have no idea how lucky you are as fans to have missed that time.

Hey, lots of people liked the G1 cartoon, and its American run ended somewhat less than satisfyingly. I can understand their excitement and enthusiasm at finding out there were effectively three extra seasons to it overseas.

Dom
-notes that the Japanese do not seem to think much of dogs in general.

Aw, what about Hachiko? That dog's got its own park over there. Not to mention crap like Dog Days, that series that came out a couple seasons ago about the parallel-world adventures of a bunch of cute dog-girls. Don't know where you'd get the idea from that they don't like them.

Of anything else, I'm really interested in his character! Maybe it's just my own lack of research but I don't quite have a handle on 'who' Ginrai is. Is he reckless and stupid, like Hot Rod or Shuta? Or is he self-respecting and honourable, like...Optimus Prime? (Metalhawk seems to be in that role here, so.) Or is he like Big Convoy, in that he's a dick who doesn't want to do anything, but does because it's the Right Thing, and learns to be compassionate and a Good Leader throughout the series?

I only saw one episode with Ginrai back when I was watching fansubs, but near as I can tell from his debut episode, he's a decently cool trucker guy who basically ends up drafted into the conflict with the Decepticons after they target him because the truck he ends up driving happens to be this long-lost super powerful Transtector. I'll probably get to his episodes if I watch more tonight, and we can really start digging in and following this guy.

[Dominic]

Well, the idea is that the Autobots and Decepticons both need troops that their respective armies simply can't supply at the time, so they improvise with the Transtectors and any humans they can get to drive them. Shuta and the kids get involved because at that point the Autobots just need a rescue team, which would (theoretically) be out of the way of actual combat, and the kids are eager to help out anyway and hell, if they want to train humans to be able to defend themselves in the future, might as well start with a younger generation, right? With the Decepticons, I think it was more a case of stupid kids being easier to coerce into acting as their dumb muscle.

That does make some sense actually. (Maybe I fogged out during the bad dub.) I actually like the concept, if not the execution in this case.

The hatred for human characters stems from a few things.

In some cases, it is people who "hate da oomies because oomies is weak". They are the guys who are probably misfits and malcontents. I dunno. Some of it is that these fans may feel insecure and want to see violence in their entertainment because it makes that entertainment more "grown-up". I dunno.

But, there is another, more sensible, reason to hate human characters. Most of them...kind of suck. They get set-piece action sequences and explication scenes that add nothing to the episode/series/franchise. Just look at G1 Spike and Chip. Daniel? The movie humans are the sort of people that you want to see get pushed in front of buses.

Aw, what about Hachiko? That dog's got its own park over there. Not to mention crap like Dog Days, that series that came out a couple seasons ago about the parallel-world adventures of a bunch of cute dog-girls. Don't know where you'd get the idea from that they don't like them.

I dunno, maybe I should say they seem to (very much) prefer cats. And, with dogs, they like seem to like uh...little pansy dogs. Yes, I know that Pis was a little sissy dog. But, killing him was probably to show how mean the Decepticons are. (And, just to make sure every gets this, I have met some small dogs that I have liked. But, I have also noticed that people who like small dogs tend to dislike and/or fear larger breeds.)


Dom
-would not mind seeing IDW use the Transector idea.