Onslaught Six wrote:he's painting us with someone else's brush.
I don't think Dom was accusing any of
us of thinking that. Even though I don't sing the praises of Costa's run, I am at least honest on the fact that I never read it past the first issue, some previews and summaries, and I don't try to argue the plot stuff.
Dominic wrote: but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to read a book titled Transformers to have the title characters actually in it. And honestly, I think Costa took his own reaction towards the fans a bit too far.
There were Transformers in every issue of "Transformers". But, Costa had ideas that would work in books other than "Transformers". And, it paid off for him. Besides a regular gig on "Cobra", he has written for DC at least twice.
The problem Costa had with transfans is that they cannot handle something that is not "Transformers".
Onslaught, I point you to that comment right there. Dom is defining something as "transfans cannot handle..." and we're all Transfans technically, so to me that's painting us as much as anybody else.
I also think it's an entirely unfair and wrong-headed thing. Virtually every transfan we know reads other comics and has outside interests. The readers aren't isolated from the comics world, the title is isolated by those who aren't into it just as Archie or anything else not in the mainstream is, but that doesn't mean the readers are the cause. Costa's attitude of coming across a lot of unpleasant people in the brand sounds an awful lot like "if you come across an asshole in the morning, you've met one asshole; if you come across assholes all day, you're the asshole" - sounds like Costa has come across a whole lot of people who seem like assholes to him, and virtually nothing else.
Also, he's dead-ass wrong about the characters himself, he says of Transformers that they're hard to write because they're not humans, they don't have need for food or women or relationships, they're JUST toys - that's bullshit, RID and MTMTE are proving both things are short-sighted, that good writing can be found in those tales, that the ideas are far more deep and nuanced than "just toys". Maybe Mike Costa isn't as good a writer as you make him out to be if he had such a challenge getting inside the world of Transformers and those who inhabit it. Stop kissing his ass because he's got a job with the big boys, he's a tiny fish in a very isolated mid-sized pond.
That gets to the idea of Costa writing comics that happened to include a "Transformers" title rather than being a "Transformers" writer who happened to be writing comics.
The more I see you say this, the more I think it comes off as an excuse for generic stories instead of understanding the world that these specific characters inhabit.
Costa wrote intelligently. Costa had actual (wow!) ideas.
Costa didn't understand the world of the Transformers. Costa didn't understand how to write characters whose limitations and needs were different from his own. "Wow" indeed. Don't play this off like he's the only person who can write and has ideas, that's clearly not true.
CBG in the muthfath'in house! Judging an author based on his popularity? Check. Derogatory tone towards another writer for no reason? Check. Stated opinion as fact? Check. Making elitist arguments that are more of a turn-off to the very thing you're trying to promote? Double check.
Uh, really? You were the one who pointed out that Barber and Roberts are out-selling Costa.
I was pointing to Costa's actual body of work.
Uh, really, yes, you are the CBG in this situation. I wasn't comparing Barber and Roberts are out-selling ANYBODY, I simply said their titles sell well in a populated market. Let's follow that conversation back from the top...
Mako: I always take exception to your comment, that "Costa pitched a little too high for some of the fandom." It comes across as, "He was just too clever for those simpletons," to me, even if that's not what you're meaning to convey. Or alternately, "If only they were smarter, they'd learn to appreciate Costa."
Dom: That uh....kind of is what I am saying. [...] I agree with most of what Costa said in his interview with Kalimus Prime, especially the part about "Transformers" fans not being interested in comics, but just wanting comics with Transformers.
JT: Yeah, I knew that was what you're saying. You can be such a CBG sometimes.
[...] That sounds like shit of a horse. RID and MTMTE sell briskly in Los Angeles, they are compelling Transformers comics. If anything, it sounds like Police Action is trying to be a DC tale with Transformers in it.
Dom: Great, and indy crap sells briskly in Cambridge. Does that make indy crap good? [...] "Police Action" was good comics with Transformers in it. [...] And, lessee, Costa has actually gone on to write for DC (and by extension Warner Brothers). He got his own damned book published with "Smoke and Mirrors". Barber and Roberts....well, Roberts has written some fanfic and bulked up his resume' with more TF stuff..... Uh..... Barber has some "GI Joe", which is not much but it puts him ahead of Roberts. Costa= comics writer who has written Transformers. Barber and Roberts= Transformers writers who have written comics.
JT: It neither makes it good nor crap, but brisk sales in a large market such as this at least suggests that there is great appreciation for the titles, rather than the derision you promoted. [...] First, there are a jillion "good comics" in life, the medium is nearly a century old, I don't have time to read every "good comic." Second, your opinion is subjective and despite several requests to defend it, one that is poorly supported. You have done little to compel me to spending my money to trust your judgement over my own instincts on this matter. [...] CBG in the muthfath'in house! Judging an author based on his popularity? Check. Derogatory tone towards another writer for no reason? Check. Stated opinion as fact? Check. Making elitist arguments that are more of a turn-off to the very thing you're trying to promote? Double check.
Nowhere did I compare Costa to Barber or Roberts on their sales, you're constantly comparing these 2 runs but I wasn't, I'm just saying the current run is good and not just a limited manchild book that Costa is making it out to be. You're drawing all the comparisons in this.
And, while you might think I am being unfair to Roberts and Barber, the fact is that I am right. Costa has written for two companies, across 5 properties, (including one he created if not owns). Costa has clear points of reference outside of "Transformers" as a property and its fans. Barber, as far as I know, has TF and some "GI Joe" (movie tie-in). Roberts....uh, only has TF as far as I know.
That doesn't prove anything, hence my reference to Liefeld. You're throwing around "oh, he's written for Blackhawks for DC and he's written for GI Joe" as if that's really impressive and I should bow down and kiss the ring, as if that in any way reflects upon the topic at hand - it doesn't. The work is what matters - I can't even find what Costa's currently working on that isn't the GI Joe title "Cobra", the most recent was Smoke & Mirrors for IDW which ended 10 months ago, and Blackhawks which ended a year ago, and then a few books here and there. EDIT: Wait, I found it, "Haunted Horror" for Yoe Books is his current other job, not really seeing anything worthy of worship there. So it's not like I'm going OH WOW YOU HAVE TOTALLY CONVINCED ME, HE'S THE FRANK MILLER AND ALAN MOORE OF OUR TIME with this argument, he's a working comic writer, that's not impressive, that's a creative job but it's the same one Roberts and Barber have... oh wait, no, I need to correct that, that's the job Roberts has, Barber has the dual task of being the writer on a series AND the editor on both his series and Roberts' series.
BTW, not sure why this is a cock-measuring contest between Costa and Barber, but Barber came into TF with hundreds of issues of Marvel under his belt, he also was the editor for Romita & Millar on the entire run of Kick-Ass. Mike Costa's Comic Vine page has 147 issues spanning 4 years, Barber's has 575 issues spanning 8 years. NONE of which has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but don't play like Mike Costa is the only guy who ever worked on Transformers that has had another job in the industry.
If stating fact makes me an elitist, then so be it.
Well, your facts are inaccurate and skewed, boosting Costa's reach and utterly ignoring Barber's, so you're not really using "facts", you're making fact-like arguments to sound as if Costa's point is the only one that could possibly be right because he's the only one who has had a job in the industry. But none of that is right. And those "fact-like arguments" are meant to downplay the fans of the brand and the work that has come since, so that's elitist, yes.
Was I shitting on Barber? Hardly. Hell, I am one of Barber's biggest boosters on this board. I would like to see him do some work on other books, maybe for other companies.
Costa has proven he can go outside of the franchise that he started with. The other two have not.
Better get a time machine, or just buy hundreds of back-issues from Marvel, because Barber's hands are all over the better part of the last decade of books there. You are saying their work only matters if their previous work mattered, but that's deeply flawed - their CURRENT work should stand on its own no matter where they've come from or where they're going.
And as for Barber proven going outside of the franchise he started with, Transformers *is* proof of that, Barber started with a mountain of Marvel work: Is Transformers a Wolverine Origins book, is Transformers actually Ultimate Fantastic Four, Astonishing Tales, Kick-Ass, X-Force, Squadron Supreme, etc.? No, but because they didn't somehow count in your mind, you took the CBG route of undervaluing his current work - that's how I define elitist, someone who is more interested in another person's background than that person standing in front of them. If James Roberts never writes another word of fiction, I'll still be damned impressed with his ability to tell the stories he told in the issues I have, from LSotW through MTMTE, it's compelling work and it's thoughtful work and it does what Costa himself said couldn't be done, it makes real personal issues, real "human" issues, important to these robots who live a million years and are "just toys".
You asked for recommendations, and I gave you one.
I know, and I appreciate your feedback and politely explained why I was going a different route. Then you and the others got into this pissing match about different opinions over it, and it got kinda ugly and bled into the rest of the conversation.
And, no, you do not have to read much of anything before "Police Action" (aside from *maybe* the Prowl "Spotlight" issue). All of the relevant details are mentioned in "Police Action". Unless you have some obessive need to see every little detail as originally show (rather than in flash-back), you will be fine just reading "Police Action".
You and I differ on viewpoints there. If you're still loaning me your copies of Police Action though, I'll let you know what I think of reading it dry before looking anything else up online.
(Figure it this way, when I picked up "Dark Avengers", I had no idea how Gargan got the Venom suit. I still do not know. Nor does it matter how he got ahold of the suit. He had it. I understood that much and did not worry over the stupid chicken-shit stuff.)
That was not one of the backstory things I needed, and said as much. I did need to know who Bob/The Sentry was, something about Ares and his son, who the Thunderbolts were and how Norman tied into them, more about the Secret Invasion events that ousted Tony Stark and SHIELD, Noh-Varr. All character stuff, all stuff that matters in the long run to the story, all foundational things to the run, and that's before the Siege complaints I had.
