Advice re 2009-2011 Ongoing comics (should I buy?)

[BWprowl]

This all goes back to '86's explanation of the 'Big Sticks' theory, in that there are certain things you want from stories, and you want them specifically because of what they are. Transformers comics can have all the high concepts and idea-driven storytelling and everything that you want, but most people generally also want a certain amount of giant robots turning into trucks and smashing each other in the face. At the basic level, that's why a lot of us read Transformers to begin with. Just look at my misgivings about MTMTE: I like that it's got emotional development for a stable of characters who've almost never had any, and some of its world-building and dialogue-interaction are neat, but it seems to be going out of its way to not have the Transformers do their Transformerin', and that drives me insane, because, you know, I like to see Transformerin'!

It's like, I really like Kamen Rider, right? And despite being Sunday-morning Power-Rangers-level kids shows, some of the series can get pretty good about presenting concepts and having interesting story development and the like. But at some point in the proceedings, I still want to see a guy put on some armor and kick the shit out of rubber-suited monsters with cheesy special effects. Because that shit's awesome, and I can get it from watching Kamen Rider!

[JediTricks]

You know what's funny? This started because I said "[Dom] suggested Chaos: Police Action, but having read RID with Prowl's aftermath, I just don't think that story will carry over without its setup, and I can't say I'm as compelled by "Spike did what he had to do" and all of that Earth stuff without the background that I don't really want to get into." That couldn't be any more reasonable a statement, IMO, and yet it's created this giant fight and teardown of opinions.

The problem is that I don't care about either character enough to invest, and I'm not already invested in the characters enough to care. If I had read what came before, maybe I'd have been invested enough to care, but I didn't and I don't feel like looking backwards that far.

Why do you need to care about the characters? Why do you need to like or identify with a character to read something? (Seriously, we are adults and it is 2013.)

Because it's my money and my time, both are limited resources, so if I'm not invested in the characters what's to draw me to this story? Not the story itself, based on everything I've already seen. And it's not significantly connected to the stories I'm reading now either.

That is how the wiki made it seem when I was perusing for backstory on MTMTE and RID comics.

The wiki are more or less the types that Costa was (rightly) calling out. "We want twansfohmahs!" The stuff with Swindle makes sense if you (can) read the comcis.

The wiki supported no opinion whatsoever on this, that is an entirely specious argument.

Also, probably not wise to take a crack at someone's literacy when you misspell "comics" in the same sentence.

Great, and indy crap sells briskly in Cambridge. Does that make indy crap good?

It neither makes it good nor crap, but brisk sales in a large market such as this at least suggests that there is great appreciation for the titles, rather than the derision you promoted.

"Police Action" was good comics with Transformers in it.

First, there are a jillion "good comics" in life, the medium is nearly a century old, I don't have time to read every "good comic."

Second, your opinion is subjective and despite several requests to defend it, one that is poorly supported. You have done little to compel me to spending my money to trust your judgement over my own instincts on this matter.

And, lessee, Costa has actually gone on to write for DC (and by extension Warner Brothers). He got his own damned book published with "Smoke and Mirrors". Barber and Roberts....well, Roberts has written some fanfic and bulked up his resume' with more TF stuff..... Uh..... Barber has some "GI Joe", which is not much but it puts him ahead of Roberts. Costa= comics writer who has written Transformers. Barber and Roberts= Transformers writers who have written comics.

CBG in the muthfath'in house! Judging an author based on his popularity? Check. Derogatory tone towards another writer for no reason? Check. Stated opinion as fact? Check. Making elitist arguments that are more of a turn-off to the very thing you're trying to promote? Double check.

And, Costa can do that. He can write a sentence. He has ideas. He can plot out a story. But, he does not write "Transformers" like mid-90s fanfic or like it was in the 80s, so......

"Can do that" doesn't sound like he DOES do that here though. Moreover, this claim seems to take a pretty low shot at your fellow TFVers' opinions of his run on the tf comics, as well as the current state of the comics running since.

The problem is that I don't care about either character enough to invest, and I'm not already invested in the characters enough to care. If I had read what came before, maybe I'd have been invested enough to care, but I didn't and I don't feel like looking backwards that far.

Why do you need to care about the characters? Why do you need to like or identify with a character to read something? (Seriously, we are adults and it is 2013.)

Ok, you know darn well that this isn't about some fanwank "trekkie-esque" attachment to characters by someone who can't tell the difference between fiction and reality. You know that. Let's not go there again. It isn't about "caring" about characters in the sense of someone caring the same way they do about real life friends, it's in the way that like... um.. Ok, so I don't care about Pokemon. Just in general. I do care about Transformers and as such will have an interest in TF related things. I think what JT is saying is that he doesn't care enough about that part of TF to read it. It has nothing to do with liking or identifying with characters.

Shh, don't interrupt Dom's internet rage with logic, it'll cause him to trip over himself and go all movie Bonecrusher - just start hating at everything.

I don't know that I necessarily have to 'like' characters in something, I've read/watched and loved plenty of series with despicable characters, and enjoyed them for that (Watchmen, just as an example), and 'caring' about them is right out the window, since I know they're not real and anything that happens to them isn't real, so I'm not concerned with if they'll 'turn out alright' or whatever it is other people do. However, I do need to at least be INTERESTED in the characters and what they're doing, since nine times outta ten that's what's driving the story. So if the characters (and by extension, the situation of the story) don't appeal, I can see why you wouldn't want to be assed to get into a particular piece of fiction.

EDIT: One thing I'm trying to be on-point about here is that while, like Dom, I tend to prefer idea-driven fiction, that doesn't mean I think y'all who like character-driven fiction are 'worse' or any such nonsense. They're damn funny-books, read 'em for why you like 'em, and don't let me tell you otherwise.

I'm sure Sparky didn't mean I had to like them as people, but rather be engaged by the characters, to be invested, to care about them as literary constructs as storytelling vessels - good and bad - in an effort to justify their value to the story.

It was not really a "mystery". Prowl had comprelling reason to believe that Spike had deviated from the terms of the Autobot/Skywatch deal. Part of that was "no killing Transformers". This ties in with "For all Mankind" and the Prowl "Spotlight" issue (which was meant to be told in flashbacks in the main book until the fandom's whining compelled IDW to publish it on its own). The story was Prowl trying to play by the rules and no accuse an ally of mischief. Prowl gathered evidence for diplomatic and moral reasons. (Prowl more or less knew, but he wanted to have physical evidence.)

Why does that matter to me, though? It doesn't tie into the current series of comics I'm reading, it sounds like it is dependent on having read a significant amount of comics prior which I haven't and can't without expending a significantly larger amount of my resources than I'm interested in expending, and it apparently affects a relationship that I'm not remotely invested in.

*sigh*

But, the wiki says it is bad, right?

The wiki says no such thing, it presents the synopses of the issues.

It was stated in the "Spotlight" issue and (I think) "For all Mankind" that Spike's unit was using technology derived from Cybertronian tech. (The exo-suits and other armaments were not human designed/engineered.) "For all Mankind" specifically characterizes Swindle as being and opportunist. And, a huge theme in Costa's run was that TFs and humans can (and will) do business for mutual benefit despite a mutual lack of trust.

Remember how I sorta asked about comics that didn't require me buying even more comics to explain themselves? Does that sound like Police Action fits the bill? No.

Costa's run relied on people being interested in ideas and having frames of reference beyond "big wobuts is awshum". And, that got him in trouble with the people do want "comics with Transformers" more than "comics".

What a complete dick comment to make, just shitty and thoughtless. No consideration for the current run, which has been seen as smart and unique and clever and deeply philosophical beyond the thin shell of Earth's atmosphere into the true "human condition" of all beings; just chalk up anybody who disagrees with you as a childish fanboy who just wants to see transforming robots punching each other. Kind of stale and pathetic argument tactic, and it surely damns your opinions for Costa's work rather than promoting it. When "Transformers" is the title of the comic, it should be a given that people are there to read comics with Transformers - interesting stories starring and affecting the Transformers - imagine that!

And, yeah, Costa was right to shit on the fandom towards the end.

Sounds like he threw a fit because he wasn't appreciate for his self-aggrandized genius. Anybody who shits on the people who buy his comics and thus pay his bills is not mature enough to warrant consideration, and should go sit in the corner with Rob Liefeld. You are doing Mike Costa no favors with your defense here, you're making him sound like a whiny, self-important cunt and I highly doubt that's actually the case.

People who want comics with Transformers more than comics? I understand your meaning here Dom, about having ideas beyond just big robots, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to read a book titled Transformers to have the title characters actually in it. And honestly, I think Costa took his own reaction towards the fans a bit too far.

Sounds like it.

That's what Dom is exactly getting at, though.

Sounds like Dom is bringing a fight here that nobody had started though, he's fighting an issue we weren't discussing, he's painting us with someone else's brush.

[Onslaught Six]

he's painting us with someone else's brush.

I don't think Dom was accusing any of us of thinking that. Even though I don't sing the praises of Costa's run, I am at least honest on the fact that I never read it past the first issue, some previews and summaries, and I don't try to argue the plot stuff.

[Mako Crab]

Well there's a point. You should really read a story for yourself, not just peruse a snarky, biased wiki's summaries, before you just shit all over it.

I had already given IDW and Mike Costa a year + worth of chances and my money to tell some good stories, and came away unimpressed. The wiki did not spoon-feed me an opinion. But you're right. I should've cited one of the issues I had read instead of one I had only read about.

[Dominic]

but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to read a book titled Transformers to have the title characters actually in it. And honestly, I think Costa took his own reaction towards the fans a bit too far.

There were Transformers in every issue of "Transformers". But, Costa had ideas that would work in books other than "Transformers". And, it paid off for him. Besides a regular gig on "Cobra", he has written for DC at least twice.

The problem Costa had with transfans is that they cannot handle something that is not "Transformers".

As I have said before, Costa was mostly right in his interview with Kalimus. His comments comparing early Hama issues of "GI Joe" to "Transformers" were a little out of bounds. But, that was mostly because he should not have been the one to say it (and to a less degree, because Joe is a relatively moribund property at the moment).

But, his comments to/about the fandom were spot on, as uncomfortable as that might be to admit. He was calling out Transfans from being drooling fanboys who jus wunt twansfarmuhs. They want space robots, not something with an idea that is not exclusively space robots, even if Costa was using space robots.

In this case, Costa had Transformers in the book. But, the book was about more than big wobuts fwom spays.

When "Transformers" is the title of the comic, it should be a given that people are there to read comics with Transformers -

Because maybe they might want *good* comics that happen to have Transformers in them?

That gets to the idea of Costa writing comics that happened to include a "Transformers" title rather than being a "Transformers" writer who happened to be writing comics.

(Of course, the high mark would be a guy like Peter David, a self-described "writer of stuff" who happened to write comics along with a good many other things.)

but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to read a book titled Transformers to have the title characters actually in it. And honestly, I think Costa took his own reaction towards the fans a bit too far.

How about "Costa addressing that change is necessary if difficult"? How about "Costa intelligently considering the differences between a warrior and a soldier"? (Costa's phrasing on the second point was different, but I do not have his stuff in front of me at the moment.) Costa wrote intelligently. Costa had actual (wow!) ideas.

CBG in the muthfath'in house! Judging an author based on his popularity? Check. Derogatory tone towards another writer for no reason? Check. Stated opinion as fact? Check. Making elitist arguments that are more of a turn-off to the very thing you're trying to promote? Double check.

Uh, really? You were the one who pointed out that Barber and Roberts are out-selling Costa.

I was pointing to Costa's actual body of work.

And, while you might think I am being unfair to Roberts and Barber, the fact is that I am right. Costa has written for two companies, across 5 properties, (including one he created if not owns). Costa has clear points of reference outside of "Transformers" as a property and its fans. Barber, as far as I know, has TF and some "GI Joe" (movie tie-in). Roberts....uh, only has TF as far as I know.

If stating fact makes me an elitist, then so be it.

Was I shitting on Barber? Hardly. Hell, I am one of Barber's biggest boosters on this board. I would like to see him do some work on other books, maybe for other companies. But, if somebody asks me why I like John Barber, and if it has anything to do with something other than TF, I cannot honestly say yes. I have read and liked a fair amount of Roberts' work as well. But, again, that only applies to one property at one company.

Costa has proven he can go outside of the franchise that he started with. The other two have not.

Why does that matter to me, though? It doesn't tie into the current series of comics I'm reading, it sounds like it is dependent on having read a significant amount of comics prior which I haven't and can't without expending a significantly larger amount of my resources than I'm interested in expending, and it apparently affects a relationship that I'm not remotely invested in.

You asked for recommendations, and I gave you one.

And, no, you do not have to read much of anything before "Police Action" (aside from *maybe* the Prowl "Spotlight" issue). All of the relevant details are mentioned in "Police Action". Unless you have some obessive need to see every little detail as originally show (rather than in flash-back), you will be fine just reading "Police Action".

(Figure it this way, when I picked up "Dark Avengers", I had no idea how Gargan got the Venom suit. I still do not know. Nor does it matter how he got ahold of the suit. He had it. I understood that much and did not worry over the stupid chicken-shit stuff.)


-Dom Decree.....

[Sparky Prime]

There were Transformers in every issue of "Transformers". But, Costa had ideas that would work in books other than "Transformers". And, it paid off for him. Besides a regular gig on "Cobra", he has written for DC at least twice.

Clearly that did not pay off for his run on Transformers, considering it did not last for very long. As you said, the problem many fans had with Costa's writing was that it was "comics" not "comics with Transformers". Transformers may have been in it, but they were not the stars of the show, so to speak. That's a big difference between his run on "Cobra" and other works. Idea's that works other books is not any way to tell a good story for a particular franchise Dom. You have to keep in mind a lot more than that, like the storyline and characters.

But, his comments to/about the fandom were spot on, as uncomfortable as that might be to admit. He was calling out Transfans from being drooling fanboys who jus wunt twansfarmuhs. They want space robots, not something with an idea that is not exclusively space robots, even if Costa was using space robots.

In this case, Costa had Transformers in the book. But, the book was about more than big wobuts fwom spays.

I totally disagree with you on this. Not all Transfans simply want "big wobuts fwom spays" fighting each other. Again, look at the fans receptions of RiD and MTMTE. Both books have a lot more to them than robots fighting each other. A lot more. The difference is those books are actually about the Transformers not just ideas that happens to have Transformers in it. Even a lot of the criticisms I've seen about the live action movies is that the story plots are pretty weak while the focus is primarily on the action.

Because maybe they might want *good* comics that happen to have Transformers in them?

If you're reading a "Transformers" comic, then it shouldn't just happen to have Transformers in them, they SHOULD have Transformers in them. Ideas that could just as easily be in another book doesn't make a good comic.

How about "Costa addressing that change is necessary if difficult"? How about "Costa intelligently considering the differences between a warrior and a soldier"? (Costa's phrasing on the second point was different, but I do not have his stuff in front of me at the moment.) Costa wrote intelligently. Costa had actual (wow!) ideas.

But he didn't write a good story that kept his audience interested. Again, simply having ideas isn't enough to make something good. There is a lot more to telling a good story than that.

[JediTricks]

he's painting us with someone else's brush.

I don't think Dom was accusing any of us of thinking that. Even though I don't sing the praises of Costa's run, I am at least honest on the fact that I never read it past the first issue, some previews and summaries, and I don't try to argue the plot stuff.

but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to read a book titled Transformers to have the title characters actually in it. And honestly, I think Costa took his own reaction towards the fans a bit too far.

There were Transformers in every issue of "Transformers". But, Costa had ideas that would work in books other than "Transformers". And, it paid off for him. Besides a regular gig on "Cobra", he has written for DC at least twice.

The problem Costa had with transfans is that they cannot handle something that is not "Transformers".

Onslaught, I point you to that comment right there. Dom is defining something as "transfans cannot handle..." and we're all Transfans technically, so to me that's painting us as much as anybody else.

I also think it's an entirely unfair and wrong-headed thing. Virtually every transfan we know reads other comics and has outside interests. The readers aren't isolated from the comics world, the title is isolated by those who aren't into it just as Archie or anything else not in the mainstream is, but that doesn't mean the readers are the cause. Costa's attitude of coming across a lot of unpleasant people in the brand sounds an awful lot like "if you come across an asshole in the morning, you've met one asshole; if you come across assholes all day, you're the asshole" - sounds like Costa has come across a whole lot of people who seem like assholes to him, and virtually nothing else.

Also, he's dead-ass wrong about the characters himself, he says of Transformers that they're hard to write because they're not humans, they don't have need for food or women or relationships, they're JUST toys - that's bullshit, RID and MTMTE are proving both things are short-sighted, that good writing can be found in those tales, that the ideas are far more deep and nuanced than "just toys". Maybe Mike Costa isn't as good a writer as you make him out to be if he had such a challenge getting inside the world of Transformers and those who inhabit it. Stop kissing his ass because he's got a job with the big boys, he's a tiny fish in a very isolated mid-sized pond.

That gets to the idea of Costa writing comics that happened to include a "Transformers" title rather than being a "Transformers" writer who happened to be writing comics.

The more I see you say this, the more I think it comes off as an excuse for generic stories instead of understanding the world that these specific characters inhabit.

Costa wrote intelligently. Costa had actual (wow!) ideas.

Costa didn't understand the world of the Transformers. Costa didn't understand how to write characters whose limitations and needs were different from his own. "Wow" indeed. Don't play this off like he's the only person who can write and has ideas, that's clearly not true.

CBG in the muthfath'in house! Judging an author based on his popularity? Check. Derogatory tone towards another writer for no reason? Check. Stated opinion as fact? Check. Making elitist arguments that are more of a turn-off to the very thing you're trying to promote? Double check.

Uh, really? You were the one who pointed out that Barber and Roberts are out-selling Costa.

I was pointing to Costa's actual body of work.

Uh, really, yes, you are the CBG in this situation. I wasn't comparing Barber and Roberts are out-selling ANYBODY, I simply said their titles sell well in a populated market. Let's follow that conversation back from the top...

Mako: I always take exception to your comment, that "Costa pitched a little too high for some of the fandom." It comes across as, "He was just too clever for those simpletons," to me, even if that's not what you're meaning to convey. Or alternately, "If only they were smarter, they'd learn to appreciate Costa."

Dom: That uh....kind of is what I am saying. [...] I agree with most of what Costa said in his interview with Kalimus Prime, especially the part about "Transformers" fans not being interested in comics, but just wanting comics with Transformers.

JT: Yeah, I knew that was what you're saying. You can be such a CBG sometimes. [...] That sounds like shit of a horse. RID and MTMTE sell briskly in Los Angeles, they are compelling Transformers comics. If anything, it sounds like Police Action is trying to be a DC tale with Transformers in it.

Dom: Great, and indy crap sells briskly in Cambridge. Does that make indy crap good? [...] "Police Action" was good comics with Transformers in it. [...] And, lessee, Costa has actually gone on to write for DC (and by extension Warner Brothers). He got his own damned book published with "Smoke and Mirrors". Barber and Roberts....well, Roberts has written some fanfic and bulked up his resume' with more TF stuff..... Uh..... Barber has some "GI Joe", which is not much but it puts him ahead of Roberts. Costa= comics writer who has written Transformers. Barber and Roberts= Transformers writers who have written comics.

JT: It neither makes it good nor crap, but brisk sales in a large market such as this at least suggests that there is great appreciation for the titles, rather than the derision you promoted. [...] First, there are a jillion "good comics" in life, the medium is nearly a century old, I don't have time to read every "good comic." Second, your opinion is subjective and despite several requests to defend it, one that is poorly supported. You have done little to compel me to spending my money to trust your judgement over my own instincts on this matter. [...] CBG in the muthfath'in house! Judging an author based on his popularity? Check. Derogatory tone towards another writer for no reason? Check. Stated opinion as fact? Check. Making elitist arguments that are more of a turn-off to the very thing you're trying to promote? Double check.

Nowhere did I compare Costa to Barber or Roberts on their sales, you're constantly comparing these 2 runs but I wasn't, I'm just saying the current run is good and not just a limited manchild book that Costa is making it out to be. You're drawing all the comparisons in this.

And, while you might think I am being unfair to Roberts and Barber, the fact is that I am right. Costa has written for two companies, across 5 properties, (including one he created if not owns). Costa has clear points of reference outside of "Transformers" as a property and its fans. Barber, as far as I know, has TF and some "GI Joe" (movie tie-in). Roberts....uh, only has TF as far as I know.

That doesn't prove anything, hence my reference to Liefeld. You're throwing around "oh, he's written for Blackhawks for DC and he's written for GI Joe" as if that's really impressive and I should bow down and kiss the ring, as if that in any way reflects upon the topic at hand - it doesn't. The work is what matters - I can't even find what Costa's currently working on that isn't the GI Joe title "Cobra", the most recent was Smoke & Mirrors for IDW which ended 10 months ago, and Blackhawks which ended a year ago, and then a few books here and there. EDIT: Wait, I found it, "Haunted Horror" for Yoe Books is his current other job, not really seeing anything worthy of worship there. So it's not like I'm going OH WOW YOU HAVE TOTALLY CONVINCED ME, HE'S THE FRANK MILLER AND ALAN MOORE OF OUR TIME with this argument, he's a working comic writer, that's not impressive, that's a creative job but it's the same one Roberts and Barber have... oh wait, no, I need to correct that, that's the job Roberts has, Barber has the dual task of being the writer on a series AND the editor on both his series and Roberts' series.

BTW, not sure why this is a cock-measuring contest between Costa and Barber, but Barber came into TF with hundreds of issues of Marvel under his belt, he also was the editor for Romita & Millar on the entire run of Kick-Ass. Mike Costa's Comic Vine page has 147 issues spanning 4 years, Barber's has 575 issues spanning 8 years. NONE of which has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but don't play like Mike Costa is the only guy who ever worked on Transformers that has had another job in the industry.

If stating fact makes me an elitist, then so be it.

Well, your facts are inaccurate and skewed, boosting Costa's reach and utterly ignoring Barber's, so you're not really using "facts", you're making fact-like arguments to sound as if Costa's point is the only one that could possibly be right because he's the only one who has had a job in the industry. But none of that is right. And those "fact-like arguments" are meant to downplay the fans of the brand and the work that has come since, so that's elitist, yes.

Was I shitting on Barber? Hardly. Hell, I am one of Barber's biggest boosters on this board. I would like to see him do some work on other books, maybe for other companies.

Costa has proven he can go outside of the franchise that he started with. The other two have not.

Better get a time machine, or just buy hundreds of back-issues from Marvel, because Barber's hands are all over the better part of the last decade of books there. You are saying their work only matters if their previous work mattered, but that's deeply flawed - their CURRENT work should stand on its own no matter where they've come from or where they're going.

And as for Barber proven going outside of the franchise he started with, Transformers *is* proof of that, Barber started with a mountain of Marvel work: Is Transformers a Wolverine Origins book, is Transformers actually Ultimate Fantastic Four, Astonishing Tales, Kick-Ass, X-Force, Squadron Supreme, etc.? No, but because they didn't somehow count in your mind, you took the CBG route of undervaluing his current work - that's how I define elitist, someone who is more interested in another person's background than that person standing in front of them. If James Roberts never writes another word of fiction, I'll still be damned impressed with his ability to tell the stories he told in the issues I have, from LSotW through MTMTE, it's compelling work and it's thoughtful work and it does what Costa himself said couldn't be done, it makes real personal issues, real "human" issues, important to these robots who live a million years and are "just toys".

You asked for recommendations, and I gave you one.

I know, and I appreciate your feedback and politely explained why I was going a different route. Then you and the others got into this pissing match about different opinions over it, and it got kinda ugly and bled into the rest of the conversation.

And, no, you do not have to read much of anything before "Police Action" (aside from *maybe* the Prowl "Spotlight" issue). All of the relevant details are mentioned in "Police Action". Unless you have some obessive need to see every little detail as originally show (rather than in flash-back), you will be fine just reading "Police Action".

You and I differ on viewpoints there. If you're still loaning me your copies of Police Action though, I'll let you know what I think of reading it dry before looking anything else up online.

(Figure it this way, when I picked up "Dark Avengers", I had no idea how Gargan got the Venom suit. I still do not know. Nor does it matter how he got ahold of the suit. He had it. I understood that much and did not worry over the stupid chicken-shit stuff.)

That was not one of the backstory things I needed, and said as much. I did need to know who Bob/The Sentry was, something about Ares and his son, who the Thunderbolts were and how Norman tied into them, more about the Secret Invasion events that ousted Tony Stark and SHIELD, Noh-Varr. All character stuff, all stuff that matters in the long run to the story, all foundational things to the run, and that's before the Siege complaints I had.

[Dominic]

I totally disagree with you on this. Not all Transfans simply want "big wobuts fwom spays" fighting each other. Again, look at the fans receptions of RiD and MTMTE. Both books have a lot more to them than robots fighting each other. A lot more. The difference is those books are actually about the Transformers not just ideas that happens to have Transformers in it. Even a lot of the criticisms I've seen about the live action movies is that the story plots are pretty weak while the focus is primarily on the action.

But, they want big robots from space before they consider the other stuff.

Hell, I can admit to being more likely to give a TF comic a pass than I am to give other comics a pass. If the TF "Infestation" cross-over was not a
"Transformers" book, I likely would not have followed Abnett over to "Hearts of Darkness". (In fact, I called out "Infestation" and "Hearts of Darkness" for screwing up the basics of being cross-overs and comics in general.) I would have given Abnett something of a pass (which I did) due to his known medical issues. But, I would not have followed him to a non-TF book.

But, I never once said that "Infestation" or "Hearts of Darkness" were good, even if they did have Transformers in them. Costa was calling out the fans who would give those books a pass on the basis of being "Transformers" comics.

Also, he's dead-ass wrong about the characters himself, he says of Transformers that they're hard to write because they're not humans, they don't have need for food or women or relationships, they're JUST toys - that's bullshit, RID and MTMTE are proving both things are short-sighted, that good writing can be found in those tales, that the ideas are far more deep and nuanced than "just toys". Maybe Mike Costa isn't as good a writer as you make him out to be if he had such a challenge getting inside the world of Transformers and those who inhabit it. Stop kissing his ass because he's got a job with the big boys, he's a tiny fish in a very isolated mid-sized pond.

Maybe Costa is thinking "hey if they the characters are not human, maybe they should not be written as human if they are interacting with humans". Roberts and Barber can get away with humanizing space robots because there are no people on the page.

And, given how important Spike's "I do not trust aliens because they are not human" angle was, it would make sense for Costa to want to focus on the fact that Transformers are aliens.

Nowhere did I compare Costa to Barber or Roberts on their sales, you're constantly comparing these 2 runs but I wasn't, I'm just saying the current run is good and not just a limited manchild book that Costa is making it out to be. You're drawing all the comparisons in this.

Costa was not shitting on Barber or Roberts. (Neither was I in this thread for that matter.) The Costa interview I was referencing happened so early in the Barber/Roberts run that it would have been difficult, if not imposible, for anyone to say much about their work.

Costa was shitting on the fans. He was shitting on the fans who are just reading for the book because it is "Transformers", regardless of the content or quality beyond that. And, yes, those fans exist. And, they were the fans that he heard more from.

Barber came into TF with hundreds of issues of Marvel under his belt, he also was the editor for Romita & Millar on the entire run of Kick-Ass. Mike Costa's Comic Vine page has 147 issues spanning 4 years, Barber's has 575 issues spanning 8 years. NONE of which has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but don't play like Mike Costa is the only guy who ever worked on Transformers that has had another job in the industry.

Not sure how I missed/forgot that about Barber. (I vaguely recall seeing it before. Ah well....) But, okay, yeah. I will concede, Barber has a significant body of work.

And those "fact-like arguments" are meant to downplay the fans of the brand and the work that has come since, so that's elitist, yes.

Uh, you do know that I am a huge fan of Barber's run, right? When did I shit on Barber? (I am not a huge fan of Roberts. But, even then, I have not been shitting on him since dropping his book.)

I can't even find what Costa's currently working on that isn't the GI Joe title "Cobra", the most recent was Smoke & Mirrors for IDW which ended 10 months ago

"Smoke and Mirrors" was made to be 5 issues. It ran its course.

You and I differ on viewpoints there. If you're still loaning me your copies of Police Action though, I'll let you know what I think of reading it dry before looking anything else up online.

It depends on if I still have the single issues. (I might have a spare copy of the "Spotlight", but that is much less likely.)

That was not one of the backstory things I needed, and said as much. I did need to know who Bob/The Sentry was, something about Ares and his son, who the Thunderbolts were and how Norman tied into them, more about the Secret Invasion events that ousted Tony Stark and SHIELD, Noh-Varr

All of this is in the first few issues:

-Sentry: over powered crazy ass who keeps his wife in semi-prison and his issues with figuring out who he is. And, he is potentially very dangerous.
-Ares: God of War who respects martial prowess. He is also a single father.
-Osborn is in charge of the Thunderbolts, a group of semi/barely-reformed criminals and lunatics.
-All you need to know is that Stark and Maria Hill dropped the ball on something serious, and they got canned for it.


-Debating Dom...

[Onslaught Six]

Clearly that did not pay off for his run on Transformers, considering it did not last for very long.

Costa wrote all of the Ongoing, right? His run lasted about 2 years. (I think he co-wrote a few of the last issues, through Chaos and such, but I didn't read those so I don't know.) That's longer than McCarthy's 1.5ish, and Furman's was, what, two yearsish too? Roberts and Barber are poised to have their runs be the longest on the series so far, if we assume MTMTE and RID are going to run for about 32 issues. (They have both said that their books have "seasons" which ended with Issue 16, which makes me believe that their second "season" will be about the same length.)

[Sparky Prime]

But, they want big robots from space before they consider the other stuff.

Because they are the main characters of the book? How shocking fans would want to see them be the main focus!

Hell, I can admit to being more likely to give a TF comic a pass than I am to give other comics a pass. If the TF "Infestation" cross-over was not a "Transformers" book, I likely would not have followed Abnett over to "Hearts of Darkness". (In fact, I called out "Infestation" and "Hearts of Darkness" for screwing up the basics of being cross-overs and comics in general.) I would have given Abnett something of a pass (which I did) due to his known medical issues. But, I would not have followed him to a non-TF book.

But, I never once said that "Infestation" or "Hearts of Darkness" were good, even if they did have Transformers in them. Costa was calling out the fans who would give those books a pass on the basis of being "Transformers" comics.

"Infestation" was a terrible zombie crossover. It doesn't deserve a pass just because Transformers were in it. And "Heart of Darkness" was just terrible and completely forgettable. I think you're talking about a minority of fans, if any, that would give such stories a pass here Dom. I don't know of anyone that called either of those stories good, which would go to show Costa was overreacting towards the general fan base.

Costa wrote all of the Ongoing, right? His run lasted about 2 years. (I think he co-wrote a few of the last issues, through Chaos and such, but I didn't read those so I don't know.)

No, he didn't write all of the Ongoing issues. There were a couple issues written by James Roberts and then the Chaos storyline was co-written by Costa and Roberts.

That's longer than McCarthy's 1.5ish, and Furman's was, what, two yearsish too?

Costa's run was certainly better than McCarthy's. Furman's run with the main IDW universe started in October 2005 (with Infiltration) and lasted until April 2009 (with Maximum Dinobots), so his was more like 3.5 years.