TF Views

I don't know that I necessarily have to 'like' characters in something, I've read/watched and loved plenty of series with despicable characters, and enjoyed them for that (Watchmen, just as an example), and 'caring' about them is right out the window, since I know they're not real and anything that happens to them isn't real, so I'm not concerned with if they'll 'turn out alright' or whatever it is other people do. However, I do need to at least be INTERESTED in the characters and what they're doing, since nine times outta ten that's what's driving the story. So if the characters (and by extension, the situation of the story) don't appeal, I can see why you wouldn't want to be assed to get into a particular piece of fiction.

EDIT: One thing I'm trying to be on-point about here is that while, like Dom, I tend to prefer idea-driven fiction, that doesn't mean I think y'all who like character-driven fiction are 'worse' or any such nonsense. They're damn funny-books, read 'em for why you like 'em, and don't let me tell you otherwise.

BWprowl wrote: He implicated Spike, and tried to call him out on what he did, but didn't have any proof.

The story presented an impass . . .

The reveal of Swindle facilitated the delivery of that proof: Swindle confirmed that Spike had worked with him to get gear to murder Cybertronians, including Scrapper. Spike was always the 'bad guy' of the arc, they just couldn't prove it until the Swindle reveal.

. . . So Swindle showed up to solve all their problems.

It really didn't come out of nowhere, Costa had been leading to Swindle and Spike and his hatred of Cybertronians overruling his alliance with the Autobots pretty much from day 1.

It sounded like a mystery story that didn't have any clues, and that Prowl couldn't solve until the villains simply admitted their guilt and how it was all done.

These are honest questions, since I never read Police Action:
What clues were there, that Spike was buying weapons from anyone?
What groundwork was laid to suggest that he was buying those weapons from Swindle specifically?
Could any other Transformer have stood in Swindle's place without affecting the story?
Did any of the bots ever question where SkyWatch got their technology prior to Police Action?
Did any of the humans ever question it?

In the 13 issues that I read, I don't recall SkyWatch's tech ever coming up as an issue. I remember once, someone saying that the humans were hunting Decepticons well enough on their own, but no one ever said, "Hey . . . that looks like our tech!" In fact, I seem to recall that the finale to All Hail Megatron hinged on the fact that the humans were using a reverse-engineered TF weapon, and that it was common knowledge to the Autobots after the fact. And they were okay with that.

It was not really a "mystery". Prowl had comprelling reason to believe that Spike had deviated from the terms of the Autobot/Skywatch deal. Part of that was "no killing Transformers". This ties in with "For all Mankind" and the Prowl "Spotlight" issue (which was meant to be told in flashbacks in the main book until the fandom's whining compelled IDW to publish it on its own). The story was Prowl trying to play by the rules and no accuse an ally of mischief. Prowl gathered evidence for diplomatic and moral reasons. (Prowl more or less knew, but he wanted to have physical evidence.)

These are honest questions, since I never read Police Action:

*sigh*

But, the wiki says it is bad, right?

What clues were there, that Spike was buying weapons from anyone?

It was stated in the "Spotlight" issue and (I think) "For all Mankind" that Spike's unit was using technology derived from Cybertronian tech. (The exo-suits and other armaments were not human designed/engineered.) "For all Mankind" specifically characterizes Swindle as being and opportunist. And, a huge theme in Costa's run was that TFs and humans can (and will) do business for mutual benefit despite a mutual lack of trust.

Swindle was not really the bad guy. He had nothing to do with Scrapper's death beyond knowing the guy who did it.

And, the evidence from Swindle was arguably circumstantial.

The only real problem with "Police Action" is that Spike used common Earth chemicals (commerically available stuff that anybody could get) to take out Scrapper. (Seriously, it raised the question of why humans would need to buy tech from Swindle or hire Cybertronian mercenaries in the first place.) But, Swindle's testimony (for lack of a better term) implicate Spike enough to justify Prowl confronting him with his (very grounded) suspicions.

What groundwork was laid to suggest that he was buying those weapons from Swindle specifically?

Again, I will restate the story was not a mystery. It was just about Prowl trying to play by the rules (as a result of his new idealism after the events shown in the "Spotlight". (The "Spotlight" kind of clubs the reader with that point. But, given how dense the fandom can be, I will forgive Costa for that much.)

In any case, when Prowl is investigating Spike, he runs across Swindle.

Could any other Transformer have stood in Swindle's place without affecting the story?

Yeah sure. But, ultimately, chawuctuhs are fungible.

Did any of the bots ever question where SkyWatch got their technology prior to Police Action?

Did any of the humans ever question it?

Prowl and Streetwise were displeased that humans were using Cybertronian tech. But, they were more worried about how it was being used more than how people got ahold of it.

Humans were just happy to have a way to kill aliens. (And, really, why would they not be happy under those circumstances?)

One of Spike's subordinates characterizes him as a being a thug who was well connected and just good enough at his job to enjoy and exploit his station without repercussion. I forget the phrasing Costa used. But, Spike was essentially a highly competent warrior, but not a professional soldier. This made him completely unfit for command.

This idea is clearly there in the first issue, when Spike uses Breakdown as his ride. Taking trophies and other goodies is unbecoming of a leader. It is expected of a grunt. But, even they are not supposed to be to ostentatious about it. Spike would theoretically be allowed to annex facilities and similar infrastructure. But, a car? (Remember, Spike was not really seeing TFs as individuals at that point. And, even if he was, a modern commander would not be allowed to take captured slaves.)


Costa's run relied on people being interested in ideas and having frames of reference beyond "big wobuts is awshum". And, that got him in trouble with the people do want "comics with Transformers" more than "comics".

And, yeah, Costa was right to shit on the fandom towards the end.


Dom
-recommends Costa's run on "Cobra", DC's "Blackhawks" and IDW's "Smoke and Mirrors".

Mako Crab wrote:

The reveal of Swindle facilitated the delivery of that proof: Swindle confirmed that Spike had worked with him to get gear to murder Cybertronians, including Scrapper. Spike was always the 'bad guy' of the arc, they just couldn't prove it until the Swindle reveal.

. . . So Swindle showed up to solve all their problems.

It sounded like a mystery story that didn't have any clues, and that Prowl couldn't solve until the villains simply admitted their guilt and how it was all done.

It's not like Swindle 'shows up', Prowl uses clues provided throughout the story to track down Swindle and come to the conclusion that he's A)the missing piece of the puzzle as to where Spike got his tech and B)able to implicate Spike in the crimes that they were looking for proof of throughout the entire arc.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. The story presented a problem: "We need proof that Spike's been up to no good" as the driving point of said story, with everything around it revolving around Prowl hunting down clues to said proof, which turned out to be Swindle's testimony, which also revealed some uncomfortable 'why's about the whole affair, which were the reasons Prowl was 'afraid' to just ask Spike in the first place.

These are honest questions, since I never read Police Action:

Well there's a point. You should really read a story for yourself, not just peruse a snarky, biased wiki's summaries, before you just shit all over it.

Anyway, on the questions, and recall that it's been a while since I read the story myself, so I'm a bit fuzzy on some of the specifics:

What clues were there, that Spike was buying weapons from anyone?
Did any of the bots ever question where SkyWatch got their technology prior to Police Action?

I believe in the first issue of the Ongoing, when Skywatch is going after Breakdown, the Autobots question where the big-ass mechsuits came from. The question as to where that sort of advanced tech came from is brought up a few times, though they had written it off as 'reverse-engineered from Sunstreaker and the like' before. It was only in Police Action that the idea that Spike was getting 'new' Cybertronian weapons tech was brought up.

What groundwork was laid to suggest that he was buying those weapons from Swindle specifically?

Prowl investigates circumstances surrounding Scrapper's death and comes under fire. The capabilities of the shooter's weapon and the fact that he has a spotter are described, the implication being that it's the Combaticons he's dealing with, and Swindle's sniper rifle and scope, specifically.

Could any other Transformer have stood in Swindle's place without affecting the story?

If you know any other G1 Decepticons whose function is 'Arms Dealer', sure. But Swindle had also been established as being a 'free agent' on Earth at the beginning of the Ongoing, and shown that he would need alternative business opportunities since his dealings with Rodimus fell through.

Did any of the humans ever question it?

There was this one female officer throughout the entire Ongoing who would not shut up about Spike's unscrupulous methods and shady dealings he had been up to. I believe she was eventually discharged, but she'd been casting doubt on his actions pretty much through the entire series.

In fact, I seem to recall that the finale to All Hail Megatron hinged on the fact that the humans were using a reverse-engineered TF weapon, and that it was common knowledge to the Autobots after the fact. And they were okay with that.

It was more about the fact that Spike was 'stepping up his game' by out-and-out murdering Scrapper (remember, Prowl had previously objected to their killing of Breakdown, and that was aggrivated, AND it was before the Autobot/Skywatch alliance), that he was obtaining new Cybertronian weapons to do that sort of thing, and that he was going behind the Autobots' backs and dealing with one of their enemies to do it.

Dominic wrote:Costa's run relied on people being interested in ideas and having frames of reference beyond "big wobuts is awshum". And, that got him in trouble with the people do want "comics with Transformers" more than "comics".

And, yeah, Costa was right to shit on the fandom towards the end.

People who want comics with Transformers more than comics? I understand your meaning here Dom, about having ideas beyond just big robots, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want to read a book titled Transformers to have the title characters actually in it. And honestly, I think Costa took his own reaction towards the fans a bit too far.

It wasn't that. Costa's run had plenty of robits in it. (They were poorly drawn for about half of it, but they were there!) But prioritising shit like "robots punching each other" over "a well written story" is kind of...ass-backwards.

When TF's toys are bad, or otherwise not to my liking, then I just end up buying other stuff. (Usually GI Joe and occasionally, Marvel Universe.) I don't just keep buying TFs I don't like. So it's...y'know.

Onslaught Six wrote:It wasn't that. Costa's run had plenty of robits in it. (They were poorly drawn for about half of it, but they were there!) But prioritising shit like "robots punching each other" over "a well written story" is kind of...ass-backwards.

That's not at all what I said. I agree with Dom's point about having ideas beyond simply "big wobuts is awshum". It was his point about Costa being in trouble from the fans who were more interested in ""comics with Transformers" more than "comics"" I was commenting on. It's a Transformers comic book, you expect them to be the stars of their own title. That's not the same thing as prioritizing action over a well written story at all.

That's what Dom is exactly getting at, though.

Onslaught Six wrote:That's what Dom is exactly getting at, though.

Exactly. To some degree, I fall into the category Dom describes. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am not a "comics" guy. I don't go to the comic book store every month because I like "comics". I'm there because there are comics with Transformers in them. But I also like it when my TF comics have well written stories that go beyond just "Robits is awshum" (I very much enjoyed Costa's run). But apparently Costa took some heat from those fans who are like me and only in the comic shop because they are essentially there supporting the franchise, not because they like comic books. And, like me, most of those fans are probably not buying other comics beyond TF.

Onslaught Six wrote:That's what Dom is exactly getting at, though.

And I'm saying he's being unreasonable for that approach. It is a Transformers comic book, so it is not unreasonable for fans to want to be reading about the Transformers. That doesn't mean the book has to be all action though, the book can star the Transformers and also have ideas you know. Just look at how Roberts and Barber have handled MTMTE and RID. They've only got Transformers in it, yet both books are very much idea oriented.