TF Views

Gomess wrote:I'm with O6. Trying to give the *illusion* of transformation in a toy whose entire point is transformation is idiocy of the highest degree. Two convincing altmodes is generally all I ask for in a TF toy, and this Jazz- and many other recent TFs- just don't do it for me.

I mean... *fake kibble*, really?

It's a prevailing issue with the WfC/FoC designs. They aren't...really designed to transform, with the animations generally cheating like crazy. The toys try to make it work, but there's only so much they can do. WfC Bumblebee had fake vehicle-front-details in front of fake wheel wells on his chest, since the real parts had to wind up on his arms or his chest would be too wide. And the most hilarious recent example I can think of was DOTM Voyager Optimus, who had the fake windshield that folded up *right in front of* his real windshield. Baffling.

I can understand why it would get to you.

I wish there were a way I could afford one of these when they come out, but I'll probably still be up to my ass in debt.

I get Prowl's reasoning. Energon Shockblast doesn't work because it's already ENERGON Shockwave (I always thought he was supposed to be named that and they only went with blast because of some... damned legal thing or other). Energon did have a very different aesthetic to Classics.

Fake kibble has been bugging me since G1. The worst offender? Powermaster Prime's cab! In robot mode that thing's practically reversable!

Hahaha, yes. Notice how the robot mode cabfront is slightly pointed, to mirror the look of the cartoon. Show-accuracy taken to a ridiculous level.

BWprowl wrote:

Gomess wrote:I'm with O6. Trying to give the *illusion* of transformation in a toy whose entire point is transformation is idiocy of the highest degree. Two convincing altmodes is generally all I ask for in a TF toy, and this Jazz- and many other recent TFs- just don't do it for me.

I mean... *fake kibble*, really?

It's a prevailing issue with the WfC/FoC designs. They aren't...really designed to transform, with the animations generally cheating like crazy. The toys try to make it work, but there's only so much they can do. WfC Bumblebee had fake vehicle-front-details in front of fake wheel wells on his chest, since the real parts had to wind up on his arms or his chest would be too wide. And the most hilarious recent example I can think of was DOTM Voyager Optimus, who had the fake windshield that folded up *right in front of* his real windshield. Baffling.

I can understand why it would get to you.

See, I can deal with Fake Chest Windows on Optimus Primes if they *aren't* putting the windows in front of his existing windows, or trying to pretend those actually 'are' his windows. Ginrai is a perfect example! His toy is simply designed with that in mind, and his media appearances 'reflect' that--when Ginrai transforms in the show, it's exactly like his toy. The same with RID Prime, for example, who didn't necessarily have fake windows at all since it was obvious to anyone looking that it was entirely different. Those are design elements that evoke kibble (and it probably helps that they look like pecs and abs anyway) as opposed to fake kibble implying they actually transform that way. It's a subtle difference and depends entirely on their media appearances.

I guess it bothers me more with things that're patently obvious, like vehicle mode fronts, or wheels, or stuff like that.

That Shockwave does look awesome.

Damn.

In recent years, the priority has been to make the toys look good, hence the fake kibble.

Of course, Jazz having too many wheels as robot mode kibble kind of defeats the purpose of looking good.

The face looks to have similar problems to the RTS figure.

Dom
-going to skip that toy and not feel bad.

BWprowl wrote:Like I said, I'm one of the few people who doesn't think he's a viable replacement, and I'm willing to admit that I may simply be wrong about it, but it's still the way I feel.

There's a couple reasons. He's got too much green on him, and his gun-arm is WAY too freaking huge (To me, Shockwave has a full left arm with a gun at the end of that). All this goes together into the other problem: As the lone fan of 'Energon', I know and love that design way too well as Shockblast, who's a significantly different character from Shockwave. I'd never be able to consider Shockblast a stand-in for G1 Shockwave.

I still really like the toy though. Just not as Shockwave.

I can sorta see the color thing, although the arm is the only element that's off, the rest is purple and gray which is on the money.

As for character, "character" on a show means nothing to me if the toy looks good enough. Energon didn't have many characters who were loyal to their roots, yet most are clearly extensions of those roots (Ironhide would be the one character who isn't).

Onslaught Six wrote:

JediTricks wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:Jazz has shitty fake wheels. Pass.

Be fair, the fake wheels are in his feet.

...How does that make it any better?

Because the game designers came up with something impractical as a real toy, so the real wheels in his chest are hidden by a panel, there's still only 4 wheels showing in bot mode. It'd be way worse if the real wheels were on his slippery feet and they put facades on his forearms, IMO anyway.

Jazz has six wheels in his robot mode. The vehicle he turns into has four. That's a goddamned problem with the design of the toy.

I haven't seen Jazz in FOC yet, for all I know he has a second set of wheels inside the first set. Wheels at all on Cybertronian modes is already a design conceit to the player.

I could accept shit like this when it was Bayformers, or Animated. Those were mostly handled by third parties who had their own ideas about Transformers. The games and now Prime, though? This is fucking bullshit. Hasbro needs to put their foot down and say, "No, we're designing the toys first and then YOU make the shit look like THAT."

That's not how it works. Hasbro gives their licensees some level of design freedom and then interprets their final (or near-final) designs into reality. WFC wouldn't have been as good if Hasbro had been in charge, they don't know game mechanics or what visually translates to players, they know toys, and they know that they know toys not video games.

Because it's bullshit that I have to deal with crap like fake wheels or fake Prime chest windows or crap like that. I'm done! This is the last straw. I will not buy any toy that does that anymore. I have too little money and there's too many damn toys coming out, TF or otherwise, for me to be dealing with shitty toys that fake transformations.

Then don't, but I don't see the need to blow a gasket over a toy design issue. Every figure has to compromise at some level, even MP Prime. I am sometimes bothered by facade stuff, but others it is well-implemented. I didn't like how Voyager OP looked in the DOTM line due to that, so I didn't buy him, but I did buy Generations Kup despite the same thing.

There's no reason Jazz should have those fake feetwheels! None! At all! If he has wheels on his arms and in his chest, then WHY DOES HE HAVE THEM IN HIS FEET? Either engineer the damn thing the right way, or *don't put the fake wheels there.* There's no reason for them to be there! Game accuracy? Fuck that! I don't care if it's accurate to the game. I care about it being a 'good toy.'

The game model has very specific visual cues in bot mode, wheels on the forearms and wheels in the feet, but in order to cram all the legs and arms and excess bulky stuff they designed on the figure into a car mode, it'd be impossible. Look at the scale of the chest hood, the car would have to balloon out to fit it all in.

Maybe I'm getting unreasonably angry about this but I dunno, I'm just...tired of this. I don't mind shitty transformations or robot modes or anything like that. I bought Armada and Energon toys for 'years.' But none of them had 'fake windows.' None of them had 'fake wheelfeet.'

Personally, I don't think Jazz looks that good, but it's not due to the facade wheels, that's for damned sure. His problems are many, but that's not at the top of my list, not even remotely.

Energon was a different design ethic, a simpler design school meant to appeal to kids and to be simpler on show artists since it was simple computer-based. And they weren't trying to harken back to the mainstream interpretations of the characters as much, they were content to make new characters, the game does not have that luxury. Also, Downshift had a facade chest, and Rodimus sorta had a facade torso.

Y'know, the facade parts don't generally bother me much. Something like Voyager DOTM Prime, I can get behind that even though it's kind of ridiculous because the toy looks good to me in both modes, even with the weird cheaty chest. Powermaster Prime is one of my favorite things ever, and if he has that weird fake robot mode chest going, I'm generally okay with assuming he has his reasons for it and letting it go at that. It does make him look sort of funny when he's got a semi cab on his chest and back in robot mode, but again, dude has his reasons, I'm inclined to respect that.

The only figure I really disliked a fake kibble thing on? Friggin' Movie 1 Legends Jazz. That fake grille for his chest that wound up being a fake grille sticking out of the back of the car? That was some nonsense, right there. Worked for the one mode, I guess, but it made the car mode look like complete crap. Things like that I'd be cross about, but I can't recall another time when the fake kibble bits really screwed up the look of either mode.

As for these dudes in this FoC line: Prime's a pass for me unless I wind up really liking him in the game. Shockwave looks pretty decent, but I'm not overwhelmed by him. Jazz...eh, dunno. Have a couple perfectly good Jazzes now, don't know if I need another. Have to decide when I see 'em in person, I guess.

Personally out of the 3 Foc toys (That aren't the five FOC Combaticons),I like Jazz the best.

FOC Optimus looks more hideous than the WFC version. FOC Optimus Looks like the marvel cross-overs transformers Hulk tank/bot toy in blown up bulky proportions.

I'm not a fan of the FOC Shockwave. I trully think the smaller deluxe scale hurt the toys design. to me FOC Shockwave looks as bad as ROTF Deluxe Soundwave that turned into that satelite thing in space. I wonder if the same designer who designer ROTF Deluxe soundwave also designed FOC Shockwave.

JediTricks wrote:

BWprowl wrote:Like I said, I'm one of the few people who doesn't think he's a viable replacement, and I'm willing to admit that I may simply be wrong about it, but it's still the way I feel.

There's a couple reasons. He's got too much green on him, and his gun-arm is WAY too freaking huge (To me, Shockwave has a full left arm with a gun at the end of that). All this goes together into the other problem: As the lone fan of 'Energon', I know and love that design way too well as Shockblast, who's a significantly different character from Shockwave. I'd never be able to consider Shockblast a stand-in for G1 Shockwave.

I still really like the toy though. Just not as Shockwave.

I can sorta see the color thing, although the arm is the only element that's off, the rest is purple and gray which is on the money.

No way, dude, there's all that damn translucent green. Shockwave should have No Green At All.

Because the game designers came up with something impractical as a real toy, so the real wheels in his chest are hidden by a panel, there's still only 4 wheels showing in bot mode. It'd be way worse if the real wheels were on his slippery feet and they put facades on his forearms, IMO anyway.

Or they could have just designed the toy the way it's clear the game model is "supposed" to transform with the arms coming from underneath the chest like...every other iteration of Jazz ever. Even the crappy movie toys got that right!

And also, their way of hiding the wheels isn't very good at all, because you can 'still see them.' Why can't they flip down inside his chest, like ROTF Sideways?

That's not how it works. Hasbro gives their licensees some level of design freedom and then interprets their final (or near-final) designs into reality. WFC wouldn't have been as good if Hasbro had been in charge, they don't know game mechanics or what visually translates to players, they know toys, and they know that they know toys not video games.

It should be a collaborative effort. But that said: Fuck the players. I'm sick of game companies making everything piss-easy, too.

Then don't, but I don't see the need to blow a gasket over a toy design issue. Every figure has to compromise at some level, even MP Prime. I am sometimes bothered by facade stuff, but others it is well-implemented. I didn't like how Voyager OP looked in the DOTM line due to that, so I didn't buy him, but I did buy Generations Kup despite the same thing.

Kup doesn't have the same thing at all? Kup has a chest that resembles his old toy and animation model, mostly because that's a part of his character but the vehicle he now turns into doesn't look like that at all. It's like how in MTMTE, Wheeljack still has a Lancia Stratos roof for his chest even though he doesn't transform into that at all. When he does transform, it just ends up on the bottom of his vehicle mode. That's the same thing, and that's 'not' Fake Kibble at all.

The game model has very specific visual cues in bot mode, wheels on the forearms and wheels in the feet, but in order to cram all the legs and arms and excess bulky stuff they designed on the figure into a car mode, it'd be impossible. Look at the scale of the chest hood, the car would have to balloon out to fit it all in.

That's the game designer's problems. I'd rather we not get shitty fake kibble anymore. And with the announcement of TF4, I just know it's going to happen again in 2014.

Energon was a different design ethic, a simpler design school meant to appeal to kids and to be simpler on show artists since it was simple computer-based. And they weren't trying to harken back to the mainstream interpretations of the characters as much, they were content to make new characters, the game does not have that luxury. Also, Downshift had a facade chest, and Rodimus sorta had a facade torso.

The game could have that luxury just as much, Hasbro is just afraid to try new things now.

You bring up Downshift but that just shows you're not understanding what I'm pissy about. That's...not a fake chest. That's just a chest that looks like a different Wheeljack's chest. If it were a fake chest, it would look exactly like Downshift's vehicle mode roof. Or stuff like Fire Convoy's chest. Those are just robot parts, they're not fake kibble. Fake kibble is when something is made in a way that it 'looks like' that part transforms into part of the vehicle mode, but it doesn't. Not when it just looks like a different version of the character or something.