All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

[Shockwave]

Y'know, something else occurred to me: Maybe Starscream isn't actually thinking of himself here. At least not entirely. It seems to me that his ploy with the Matrix is more of a ploy to keep the Decepticons together as a unified army rather than letting it degenerate into separate squabbling factions. By lying about the Matrix, he's trying to rally them around him (which is the self-serving part) and keep them unified. I think he's doing more for the cause than himself.

[Sparky Prime]

Maybe Starscream isn't actually thinking of himself here. At least not entirely.

Heh. Starscream not thinking of himself. Given his thoughts about Razorclaw challenging his absolute leadership of the Decepticons once they get to where ever it is they're going, it looks to me like Starscream is just looking for anyway to hold onto that absolute leadership, even if it is an ill-conceived plan that will ultimately fail him.

[Shockwave]

Maybe Starscream isn't actually thinking of himself here. At least not entirely.

Heh. Starscream not thinking of himself. Given his thoughts about Razorclaw challenging his absolute leadership of the Decepticons once they get to where ever it is they're going, it looks to me like Starscream is just looking for anyway to hold onto that absolute leadership, even if it is an ill-conceived plan that will ultimately fail him.

Well, he is still thinking of himself obviously and of course still wants to be absolute leader of all Decepticons, but he mentioned concern over the Decepticons becoming disparate factions and little more than a cosmic joke. So while he's still trying to hold power, he's also doing it for the cause and I really don't think it's such an ill-conceived plan. And there's no gaurantee that it will fail. He could get back to Cybertron, use the Matrix as an excuse to retain leadership of all Decepticons and then Optimus and the Autobots could wind up getting it back before anyone questions the validity of his claim.

[Dominic]

There is neither a moral nor practical contradiction in Starscream wanting what is best for the faction that he seeks to lead. If he is leading a well-unified faction, his life is easier and more comfortable. And, his job satisfaction would be higher. It makes sense.

Battle trophies the other guy is usually too beat up or even dead to object. This does not matter to the Matrix though. It still belongs to Optimus.

Megatron beats up Optimus, who is too weak to object to Megatron taking the Matrix. Later, Megatron is injured, but Optimus does not manage to secure the Matrix before Starscream and co. tote Megatron and the Matrix away. Megatron is not using it, so Starscram takes it. (And, ya know, I did not hear Megatron objecting. )

Of coarse the Matrix has a recognized value, but it still in no way is of any use to the Decepticons as long as it belongs to Optimus.

It is a symbol of victory, because they took it from Optimus.

Doesn't mean any given news report is with out bias.

Bias schmias. If the public is not swayed, they are not swayed. Trust me Sparky. I have seen, and even written, hatchet jobs that only did so much. Hell, I did hatchet jobs where the guy I was writing about absolutely deserved what I gave him.......and people still voted for the guy. I am sure that some of my most avid readers, though hardly fans, were supports of the guy I was bashing at any given time. But, those guys rarely suffered practical problems.

(A couple them got *really* mad a few times though. One of them once walked into room, shaking hands with every body in there. He then walked over to me and snarled "I would not say 'hello' to you if you were the only one in here!" At least he cared enough to acknowledge my presence.)

As I recall, the public was very much in favor of the impeachment. Granted, aside from his major screw up(s) he did a good job in office but did something bad and deserved the impeachment. And still, he came very close to being kicked out of office.

You know, I used to have clipped articles about this. I recently got rid of them thinking "ah, who cares, I will never reference this stuff". Shows what I know.

There was vocal support for the impeachment, but that was from a minority of people. The majority, if only by plurality, did not want to see it happen. (I thought it was great fun myself.)

And, yes, Clinton came closer than most to being kicked out. But, it was not as close a call as say...Nixon had. Nixon was *not* impeached. But, the numbers going in were much worse than in Clinton's case. Clinton knew going in that he would probably be okay, if in for a rough time. Nixon knew it was over if he did not resign. ("You cannot fire me! I quit!")


Dom
-no really, saved many of the articles, and threw them out later.

[Sparky Prime]

Well, he is still thinking of himself obviously and of course still wants to be absolute leader of all Decepticons, but he mentioned concern over the Decepticons becoming disparate factions and little more than a cosmic joke. So while he's still trying to hold power, he's also doing it for the cause and I really don't think it's such an ill-conceived plan. And there's no gaurantee that it will fail. He could get back to Cybertron, use the Matrix as an excuse to retain leadership of all Decepticons and then Optimus and the Autobots could wind up getting it back before anyone questions the validity of his claim.

As far as I see, Starscream only mentions with out a leader the cause is lost. Well Megatron isn't quite out of the picture yet but Starscream believes his time is over (as usual for Starscream). And it's only a matter of time until the other Decepticons find out the truth. That Starscream is not truely chosen by the Matrix. That makes it an ill-conceived plan. Now if he'd actually found a way to become leader and hold onto it...

Megatron beats up Optimus, who is too weak to object to Megatron taking the Matrix. Later, Megatron is injured, but Optimus does not manage to secure the Matrix before Starscream and co. tote Megatron and the Matrix away. Megatron is not using it, so Starscram takes it. (And, ya know, I did not hear Megatron objecting. )

Again, the Matrix is not something that can simply be taken. The Matrix chooses whom it belongs to, and that is Optimus.

It is a symbol of victory, because they took it from Optimus.

No, it's a symbol of leadership in who it has chosen. That's also how the Decepticons are seeing it, although they are falsely lead to believe it has chosen Starscream.

Bias schmias. If the public is not swayed, they are not swayed.

Oh ye of little faith. The media is a powerful influence, whether you recognize it or not. I have some personal experiences myself in which I found it surprising how easily some people have been taken in by what they heard on talk radio.

There was vocal support for the impeachment, but that was from a minority of people.

The polls I've looked up are rather mixed on that point actually. The majority of polls I found however do show that the majority of people wanted him censured, reprimanded or some other penalty at any rate.

And, yes, Clinton came closer than most to being kicked out. But, it was not as close a call as say...Nixon had. Nixon was *not* impeached. But, the numbers going in were much worse than in Clinton's case. Clinton knew going in that he would probably be okay, if in for a rough time. Nixon knew it was over if he did not resign. ("You cannot fire me! I quit!")

Nixon was a part of campaign fraud, political espionage and sabotage, illegal break-ins, improper tax audits, illegal wiretapping... These are obviously much more serious crimes than having an affair in office and trying to cover it up. Of coarse Nixon would have been impeached and fired if he hadn't resigned from office first. Clinton on the other hand took the chance given the less serious nature of his crimes.

[Shockwave]

There is neither a moral nor practical contradiction in Starscream wanting what is best for the faction that he seeks to lead. If he is leading a well-unified faction, his life is easier and more comfortable. And, his job satisfaction would be higher. It makes sense.

Well yeah, he is still serving himself, but he's doing it in a way that goes toward serving the cause is thus looking at the bigger picture beyond just his own lust for power.

[Dominic]

As far as I see, Starscream only mentions with out a leader the cause is lost. Well Megatron isn't quite out of the picture yet but Starscream believes his time is over (as usual for Starscream).

At that point, Megatron is little more than what Prime was...something for the troops to unite in worrying over. He is less a leader and more an altar.

Again, the Matrix is not something that can simply be taken. The Matrix chooses whom it belongs to, and that is Optimus.

The Matrix may not have use as a power booster, but it is still a potent symbol for Starscream to exploit. That is plenty enough useful.

Oh ye of little faith. The media is a powerful influence, whether you recognize it or not. I have some personal experiences myself in which I found it surprising how easily some people have been taken in by what they heard on talk radio.

On the other hand Sparky, how many of the people you were probably arguing with wanted to believe what talk radio told them? Talk Radio really just said, "it is okay to believe your lunatic theory and spout it off publicly", more than it actually made anyone think it. (Yes, it is frustrating. But, please, do not blame talk radio for being commecially viable, regardless of what that viability implies.)

The polls I've looked up are rather mixed on that point actually. The majority of polls I found however do show that the majority of people wanted him censured, reprimanded or some other penalty at any rate.

A censure is different from an ouster though. There was support for a censure, but not a full on impeachment, let alone conviction.

Nixon was a part of campaign fraud, political espionage and sabotage, illegal break-ins, improper tax audits, illegal wiretapping... These are obviously much more serious crimes than having an affair in office and trying to cover it up.

Clinton was charged with, (I think), witness tampering and related offenses. Then the idiot Republicans made it all about sex, effectively justifying the Democrat's defense. Friggin' moron Republicans.

Either way, it was a good gamble for Clinton.

[Sparky Prime]

At that point, Megatron is little more than what Prime was...something for the troops to unite in worrying over. He is less a leader and more an altar.

Seems to me the Starscream has effectively diverted attention away from Megatron for the time being, save for Soundwave and his minions.

The Matrix may not have use as a power booster, but it is still a potent symbol for Starscream to exploit. That is plenty enough useful.

Again, it's a symbol of leadership which chooses its own leader. Starscream just lied about it, and because of that it inevitably end badly for him.

On the other hand Sparky, how many of the people you were probably arguing with wanted to believe what talk radio told them? Talk Radio really just said, "it is okay to believe your lunatic theory and spout it off publicly", more than it actually made anyone think it. (Yes, it is frustrating. But, please, do not blame talk radio for being commecially viable, regardless of what that viability implies.)

I don't see that they have any reason to believe anything they've heard on talk radio... So much of it is so over exaggerated it's hard to take anything they say as true.

A censure is different from an ouster though. There was support for a censure, but not a full on impeachment, let alone conviction.

The point being, people wanted him to be penalized for his misconduct while in office. And again, there was some support for impeachment. One poll I've found even said he should have resigned. Just goes to show there was a wide range of different opinions on what actions should have been taken.

Clinton was charged with, (I think), witness tampering and related offenses.

Hence why I said "and trying to cover it up".

Either way, it was a good gamble for Clinton.

Just because he wasn't convicted doesn't make it a "good gamble". Having his reputation dragged through the mud (which will follow him the rest of his life) and a lengthy trial is hardly a good thing.

[Dominic]

Starscream has a problem similar to Prowl's in that he will have to hold a fractured and distracted group together. He has other problems in that he cannot trust his cohorts. (Jazz ain't likely to turn on Prowl with the same kind of violence and consequence that Soundwace might unleash.)

But, Starscream also has an advantage that Prowl did not have in the form of the Matrix. Cosmically powered or not, it has a wow factor. Starscream does not read comics, so why would he expect his (not really bad) plan to fail?

The thing to remember about talk-radio is that it does not *sway* opinions. Most its readers either already believe, or simply want to believe, Art Bell and co. They derive comfort and certainty from the beliefs beyond their simple epistemologic (inventory of true knowledge) value. Talk radio provides certainty in opinions more than it creates or shapes them.


And, the way to look at Clinton's gamble is like this: Would you rather have your reputation screwed and not be President, or have your rep trashed and still be president with (all things considered) pretty good poll numbers? (Be honest.)


Dom
-well, really, if your rep is in the can either way.......

[Sparky Prime]

Starscream has a problem similar to Prowl's in that he will have to hold a fractured and distracted group together. He has other problems in that he cannot trust his cohorts. (Jazz ain't likely to turn on Prowl with the same kind of violence and consequence that Soundwace might unleash.)

I really don't see that the situations are similar at all given the different dynamics between the two factions... Starscream is looking for a way to become the absolute leader of the Decepticons, effectively to replace Megatron. The Autobots were merely trying to hold things together as they focused all their efforts on Optimus Prime's recovery.

But, Starscream also has an advantage that Prowl did not have in the form of the Matrix. Cosmically powered or not, it has a wow factor. Starscream does not read comics, so why would he expect his (not really bad) plan to fail?

The Autobots didn't need the Matrix so long as Optimus was alive. Again, that's the whole point of the Matrix, to choose the new leader after the past leader is gone. But as long as Optimus is alive, the Matrix isn't going to choose a new leader.

And you can tell from the last panel of the story Starscream knows what he has gotten himself into here. He knows how it'll ultimately come down.

The thing to remember about talk-radio is that it does not *sway* opinions. Most its readers either already believe, or simply want to believe, Art Bell and co.

That's not necessarily true at all. Anything in the media is capable of swaying opinions.

And, the way to look at Clinton's gamble is like this: Would you rather have your reputation screwed and not be President, or have your rep trashed and still be president with (all things considered) pretty good poll numbers? (Be honest.)

How about not get into the whole mess in the first place? Save face and don't risk your job.