More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[andersonh1]

The contemptuous attitude the story displays towards fans like me aside, I have to admit it's a more interesting storyline than "Optimus shoots Megatron in the face for the umpteenth time".

It depends what story surrounds the shot to the face.

Are TFs altmodes (in this case) 'created physical objects' though? Roberts seems to be running with the idea that TFs altmodes, at least as they have them at the outset, are 'naturally occurring' to whatever body they're brought online in, and those altmodes are then assessed and determined what they are 'good for' to lead to whatever line of work they wind up in. Hence the mountains of characters griping that they didn't have a choice as to what altmode they ended up with, or even Rung himself not being able to come up with a definition for his altmode. Granted, this willfully ignores that we've seen TFs change their altmodes at will a bunch of times in this continuity, along with the question of how they're creating bodies in the first place without knowing what they all turn into and what they do, but when has Roberts ever let a little thing like previously-established canon stand in his way?

Exactly. We've seen Transformers choose an alt-mode since IDW began. The whole idea of their being able to be in disguise on Earth rests on them picking a contemporary vehicle as a disguise. So why all the delving into the past and raising the issue? Form determining function may well have been a problem prior to the war, but the idea that it would even be an issue in the present day flies in the face of everything IDW has published, as you point out.

[Sparky Prime]

The core tenet of Functionalism is the 'every shape serves a purpose' creed. The idea that whatever a TF turns into HAS to be used for something and that is what they are MEANT to do. Rung's altmode pointedly contradicts that concept by being literally useless and having nothing to do with what he does for a living. It's one big black mark against the entire disliked institution of Functionalism. That's the whole point: Rung's very existence proves the 'bad guys' wrong. So to reveal, later down the line, that not only does Rung's altmode actually DO something, but that it's some huge, story-important, destined-sort-of-thing, that THAT is what he was meant to do instead, would contradict that previous point. Rung's altmode WAS useful for something, it WAS what he was 'meant' to do at some point in his existence, and the Functionalists were totally right about altmodes and how they define TFs.

It served the point of nobody being able to figure out what it was or did during the height of Functionalism, but Functionalism is dead and gone now because of the war. What would it matter if they figured out if Rung's altmode has a purpose at this point? Again, the whole counterpoint to the Functionalists creed is simply that a Transformer should be able to pursue their own interests despite what their altmode is and does. It's not a point of the Functionalists being right or wrong about shapes serving a function, it's about conformity (Functionalism) vs individuality (pursuit of ones own interests).

It was a single-issue story of them trying to figure out what he transformed into, with the 'reveal' being that it was a pointless trinket that undermined the Functionalist philosophy and indeed, the entire concept of assessing TFs based on their altmode. That whole story is loaded with the sort of allegory I've been talking about: The crew-members desperately wanting to see what Rung turns into are fans like me, heavily interested in the characters' altmode because they think it's a major defining point (recall the way I've been annoyed that we haven't seen Megatron's altmode yet). In the end, they're shown that caring about what a TF turns into is pointless and stupid, and the philosophy of caring about it is wrong-minded. The whole thing is Roberts blatantly saying, "Hey readers, quit caring about what TFs turn into!". The cover of that issue is Swerve playing with a literal Rung action figure, trying to figure out what the toy turns into. The subtext is about as blatant as it can get.

Rung transformed so that Swerve could have a blunt object to beat down some Ammonites, not just for the altmode party the crew was having to figure out what he was. And the big reveal was that the Functionalists also couldn't figure out what he transformed into, so they labeled him as an ornament to sidestep the matter. That doesn't mean his altmode is a pointless trinket, it's just that no one has been able to figure out what he is. And the book actually does show characters transforming quite a bit. Yet you choose to focus on characters that transform little or have yet to in the book, creating a subtext that isn't actually there.

He's applying it in a way that suits his overall philosophy. "Transformations were never cool, even in G1, the Special Powers some guys had were more interesting and integral to their characters". Like everything else, it's an exercise in undermining the application of Transformation to the definition of the characters, due to his underlying resentment of the concept.

No he's not. Again, I'm not even seeing how you're getting to that conclusion, when it's a concept that was around in G1. In no way does the book suggest that those special powers are better than transforming, just that it gives them an added ability that the Functionalists couldn't neatly categorize according to their ideals of form and function.

Where can I be misreading it? It's right there on the page! There are literal whole pages of text that are just Megatron going "Transformation is stupid and limits us". There are many times where characters are specifically griping about jerks wanting to see them transform, or being forced to transform or use their altmodes. What could all of this possibly mean if not "Transformation is bad and people who like it are jerks"?

That's the thing, it doesn't literally have pages of Megatron saying "Transformation is stupid and limits us". THAT is how YOU chose to interpret what it says. What those pages are really talking about is simply anti-Functionalism, saying that their altmodes shouldn't be all that defines who and what they are. And a quip or two from Chromedome asking why aren't using their altmodes or saying he doesn't want to get fined for riding a train isn't saying that people who like transforming are jerks AT ALL. Again, that's something you've chosen to see it as when that isn't at all what it says.

At this point I'm presuming that Megatron's new body is going to be revealed to be a monoformer, and he simply doesn't have an altmode.

He's obviously a tank.

Honest question: why is this type of plotline of any interest whatsoever? It sounds like the dryest, most academic and boring of subject matter. "The artificial prejudices of fictional alien races".

Because it's world building, adding more depth to the Transformers background and giving reasoning behind a war that lasted 400 million years. So much of Transformers fiction is nothing but war. I like seeing a writer explore why that war originally started and what a pre-war Cybertronian culture was like.

And the idea that no one can figure out what Rung's alt mode does makes no sense. Created physical objects don't generally exist for the sake of it. They were created with a purpose in mind, and the form of the object will give indications of its function. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. I always took the question of Rung's alt mode as a running gag rather than anything truly significant.

Which is partly why I think Roberts will eventually reveal that Rung's altmode does have a function. But I wouldn't agree that it wouldn't be hard to figure out. Like JediTricks mentioned, what if it's something that isn't useful without a former partner? Or perhaps is part of another component? Without which, Rung's altmode wouldn't seem to serve any function, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have one or would be easy to figure out.

Are TFs altmodes (in this case) 'created physical objects' though? Roberts seems to be running with the idea that TFs altmodes, at least as they have them at the outset, are 'naturally occurring' to whatever body they're brought online in, and those altmodes are then assessed and determined what they are 'good for' to lead to whatever line of work they wind up in.

I think that depends on if a Transformer was forged or constructed cold. Forged Transformers from what's been described it sounds like could develop a 'naturally occurring' altmode. Constructed cold bots on other other hand were given mass produced bodies.

Granted, this willfully ignores that we've seen TFs change their altmodes at will a bunch of times in this continuity, along with the question of how they're creating bodies in the first place without knowing what they all turn into and what they do, but when has Roberts ever let a little thing like previously-established canon stand in his way?

You're leaving out the little detail that we've only seen them change altmodes AFTER the war broke out. Pre-war on the other hand, the Functionalist government wouldn't have allowed them to do so, save for a practice of 'renting' another's body.

We've seen Transformers choose an alt-mode since IDW began. The whole idea of their being able to be in disguise on Earth rests on them picking a contemporary vehicle as a disguise. So why all the delving into the past and raising the issue? Form determining function may well have been a problem prior to the war, but the idea that it would even be an issue in the present day flies in the face of everything IDW has published, as you point out.

Again, we've only ever seen them choose an altmode after the war broke out. And I don't see that Roberts is making it an issue in the present day. The reason it has come up is in direct relation to past events, pre-war, given how Roberts has been exploring Megatron's past and has Brainstorm's time traveling to that era. As such, I don't see how that flies in the face of anything IDW's previously published.

[BWprowl]

It served the point of nobody being able to figure out what it was or did during the height of Functionalism, but Functionalism is dead and gone now because of the war. What would it matter if they figured out if Rung's altmode has a purpose at this point? Again, the whole counterpoint to the Functionalists creed is simply that a Transformer should be able to pursue their own interests despite what their altmode is and does. It's not a point of the Functionalists being right or wrong about shapes serving a function, it's about conformity (Functionalism) vs individuality (pursuit of ones own interests).

And if Rung discovers that his altmode DOES have some purpose it serves, and is required for him to do, that immediately swings things in favor of the ‘conformity’ side of the spectrum. We find out Rung’s altmode *does* something, and boom, he wasn’t supposed to be a psychiatrist, what he wanted to do wasn’t what he was supposed to do, he was just supposed to do whatever his altmode does all along. It would completely overwrite Roberts’s point about TFs not being bound by the function of their altmode if Rung ends up having to serve whatever function his altmode has.

Rung transformed so that Swerve could have a blunt object to beat down some Ammonites, not just for the altmode party the crew was having to figure out what he was. And the big reveal was that the Functionalists also couldn't figure out what he transformed into, so they labeled him as an ornament to sidestep the matter. That doesn't mean his altmode is a pointless trinket, it's just that no one has been able to figure out what he is.

You’re missing the entire point of that ‘big reveal’, which is surprising because it’s so simple: The Functionists tried to argue that every shape had a purpose and thus TFs had to be defined by that. Rung’s shape however, turned out to have no purpose, and thus proves the Functionists wrong, and allows him (and by proxy, others) to pursue their interests independent of their altmodes. If Rung’s shape is revealed to have a purpose, how does that not undo that entire point and prove the Functionists right?

And the book actually does show characters transforming quite a bit. Yet you choose to focus on characters that transform little or have yet to in the book, creating a subtext that isn't actually there.

The transformation really came to the fore in the latest issue, surprising me. Rewind switching to data stick mode to sidle out of the way is the sort of overt, superfluous altmode use that had previously been used with Tarn to establish that he was ‘addicted’ to shape-changing (in the same way that humans holding things in our hands means we’re ‘addicted’ to using our opposable thumbs, right?). Part of me thinks he’s purposefully calling attention to the use of transformations and altmodes at this point in the story, so their absence will be more palpable once he eventually does away with them completely.

And a quip or two from Chromedome asking why aren't using their altmodes or saying he doesn't want to get fined for riding a train isn't saying that people who like transforming are jerks AT ALL. Again, that's something you've chosen to see it as when that isn't at all what it says.

What about the part where the enforcer forces Ambus to transform while he gripes about it? What about the part where Nightbeat and Quark are complaining about Decepticons who will round them up and force them to transform? None of this is one-off stuff, it’s all a clear part of a theme of “Only bad people want to see Transformers transform”.

At this point I'm presuming that Megatron's new body is going to be revealed to be a monoformer, and he simply doesn't have an altmode.

He's obviously a tank.

Obvious how? Did you forget that Roberts previously established in this story that TFs could have ‘fake kibble’ added to them to create the illusion of having a particular altmode? That’s a particular detail that would lead effectively into a reveal that a conspicuously non-transforming character actually didn’t transform at all.

You're leaving out the little detail that we've only seen them change altmodes AFTER the war broke out. Pre-war on the other hand, the Functionalist government wouldn't have allowed them to do so, save for a practice of 'renting' another's body.

And yet even now, when they are effectively able to take on any transformation or altmode they want, they still bitch endlessly about having to transform at all, or about what their altmodes do or don’t do. They treat transformation like some massive bothersome inconvenience, rather than adapting them regularly to suit their needs as we’ve been shown they *can* do, if they actually want to.

[Dominic]

Roberts' point seems to be "yes they are Transformers, and this is comics". I have long speculated that Roberts is just building a portfolio and a fan-base, and at some point will be writing something else.

Part of me thinks he’s purposefully calling attention to the use of transformations and altmodes at this point in the story, so their absence will be more palpable once he eventually does away with them completely.

"The Plot Against Alternativia", a novel by BW Prowl.

Joking aside, I do not think that Roberts is carrying out a devious plan to eliminate the "transform" from "Transformers".

I tend to think he just had other stuff to write about.

That’s a particular detail that would lead effectively into a reveal that a conspicuously non-transforming character actually didn’t transform at all.

On page, that would make sense for Megatron though, both in terms of hobbling him and being symbolically anti-functionist.

And yet even now, when they are effectively able to take on any transformation or altmode they want, they still bitch endlessly about having to transform at all, or about what their altmodes do or don’t do.

This is something that I have never liked. It was better when their alternate modes were relatively fixed. It was a good power-cap. But, Bayformers popularized the idea (even if it existed before-hand), and now we are stuck with it.

[BWprowl]

"The Plot Against Alternativia", a novel by BW Prowl.

Joking aside, I do not think that Roberts is carrying out a devious plan to eliminate the "transform" from "Transformers".

I tend to think he just had other stuff to write about.

Can't he do it without damning the key parts of the franchise that I (and others) enjoy so much?

Look, I actually greatly enjoy a good bit of deconstructive fiction. Taking a major element of something and looking at it from another angle to see what might be 'wrong' with it and how it can be reinterpreted to 'fix' it is generally a positive type of story that works well for all stories contained in that concept in the long-run. But there still has to be some appreciation for the base concepts without going out of their way to destroy them just because you happen to not like them. 'Watchmen' never went on to say that superheroes should just stop being in stories, 'Evangelion' didn't argue that Giant Robots were an affront that should cease being entered into anime and manga, and Roberts *shouldn't* be arguing that maybe TFs should just stop transforming. If he has a problem with how transformation has been presented and how (he thinks) it limits the characters, then he should show how the concept of transformation itself could be CHANGED to work better, to BE a good thing for TFs, rather than some bothersome artifact that's better off gotten rid of.

On page, that would make sense for Megatron though, both in terms of hobbling him and being symbolically anti-functionist.

It would make for one monumentally shitty toy though. That's a thing, in that IDW Megatron as an Autobot is a concept I'm still in love with, and save for all this idiotic altmode business, has been very well executed (and the robot design's pretty nice besides). I would love to own it in plastic form, but not if it's just going to be a lousy static lump that don't do nothin'.

[Sparky Prime]

And if Rung discovers that his altmode DOES have some purpose it serves, and is required for him to do, that immediately swings things in favor of the ‘conformity’ side of the spectrum. We find out Rung’s altmode *does* something, and boom, he wasn’t supposed to be a psychiatrist, what he wanted to do wasn’t what he was supposed to do, he was just supposed to do whatever his altmode does all along. It would completely overwrite Roberts’s point about TFs not being bound by the function of their altmode if Rung ends up having to serve whatever function his altmode has.

Why would it be required for him perform the function? Again, the Functionalist government isn't around anymore to force him to do whatever his altmode may have been designed for, so it's really a moot point if he were to discover its function at this point. And how would it over-write Roberts' point? As Rung is not bound by what his altmode might be able to do, he still wouldn't be even if he does figure out it's function. It wouldn't change anything other than solving the mystery of what his altmode is and does. An altmode can still serve a function, but without the Functionalists to enforce their ideals of form and function on Cybertronian society, that function doesn't define who and what the Transformer is.

You’re missing the entire point of that ‘big reveal’, which is surprising because it’s so simple: The Functionists tried to argue that every shape had a purpose and thus TFs had to be defined by that. Rung’s shape however, turned out to have no purpose, and thus proves the Functionists wrong, and allows him (and by proxy, others) to pursue their interests independent of their altmodes. If Rung’s shape is revealed to have a purpose, how does that not undo that entire point and prove the Functionists right?

The point wasn't that Rung's shape served no purpose, the point was that even the Functionalists couldn't figure out what that purpose might be, so they just sidestepped the issue. As I said above, figuring out a function for him wouldn't change anything at this point. Rung is only one Transformer among billions that already had fit into neat little categories that fit the Functionalists purposes. Again, it's not about proving the Functionalists right or wrong here. Arguably every Transformers altmode does serve a purpose (save for Rung so far as we know whom they couldn't categorize), but the idea here is that there is more to them than simply fulfilling a function, which they may or may not even like to do. As was the case with Megatron who said he originally wanted to be a medic rather than a miner.

The transformation really came to the fore in the latest issue, surprising me. Rewind switching to data stick mode to sidle out of the way is the sort of overt, superfluous altmode use that had previously been used with Tarn to establish that he was ‘addicted’ to shape-changing (in the same way that humans holding things in our hands means we’re ‘addicted’ to using our opposable thumbs, right?). Part of me thinks he’s purposefully calling attention to the use of transformations and altmodes at this point in the story, so their absence will be more palpable once he eventually does away with them completely.

I'd liken an addition to transforming to something like an addition to sex for humans. And once again, I don't see how you're reaching the conclusions you are. There's plenty of times we've seen the Transformers using their altmodes for any number of reasons in this book. There's no way Roberts would do away with altmodes completely. It's never going to happen.

What about the part where the enforcer forces Ambus to transform while he gripes about it? What about the part where Nightbeat and Quark are complaining about Decepticons who will round them up and force them to transform? None of this is one-off stuff, it’s all a clear part of a theme of “Only bad people want to see Transformers transform”.

What about the enforcer that forced Ambus to transform (and open up his chest for a spark scan)? It's not transforming Ambus was griping about, it was the fact the enforcer was holding him up when he was supposed to be exempt and able to move about freely in the first place. As for Nightbeat and Quark, they never said the Decepticons would round everyone up and force them to transform. Quark was concerned the Decepticons would only spare those who had manual labor altmodes, like construction vehicles, and kill everyone else. It's not one-off stuff because it isn't a theme that exists in the book in the first place. You're just misreading it.

Obvious how? Did you forget that Roberts previously established in this story that TFs could have ‘fake kibble’ added to them to create the illusion of having a particular altmode? That’s a particular detail that would lead effectively into a reveal that a conspicuously non-transforming character actually didn’t transform at all.

Rung only had fake kibble because, again, the Functionalist government couldn't figure out what he was and so they forced him to wear it to make him seem like just another vehicle. And he seems to have kept it because it gives him a convenient mode of transportation. But given Megatron's ideals, do you really think he's the type to wear fake quibble to hide what his altmode is? Because that would fly in the face of everything he believes in. He's clearly a tank.

And yet even now, when they are effectively able to take on any transformation or altmode they want, they still bitch endlessly about having to transform at all, or about what their altmodes do or don’t do. They treat transformation like some massive bothersome inconvenience, rather than adapting them regularly to suit their needs as we’ve been shown they *can* do, if they actually want to.

When have they ever bitched about having to transform or what their altmodes do/don't do? They transform freely all the time in this book and they don't act like it's an inconvenience at all. That's all something you've somehow invented.

[JediTricks]

The question is how would it? What difference would it make for the Transformers figuring out what one more altmode does? Would that mean Rung couldn't be a psychiatrist anymore? Under the Functionalists perhaps, but post war, they're gone and he's free to persue any job he wants regardless of his atlmode's possible function.

Honest question: why is this type of plotline of any interest whatsoever? It sounds like the dryest, most academic and boring of subject matter. "The artificial prejudices of fictional alien races".

Existential issues fuel some of humanity's greatest internal conflicts, and all drama is conflict. Today we on this planet fight wars against terrorists whose existences they believe are meant only to serve to destroy the world of others, whose beliefs are so completely against the majority of free beings that they willingly are attempting to hasten the apocalypse; they would rather NO ONE exist than to face an existence where non-believers exist. The drama of the individual story can drive the drama of all people. You see it as dry, academic, and boring; but these are issues at the core of hatred, murder, fear, war, genocide, and all manner of action and drama.

Exactly. We've seen Transformers choose an alt-mode since IDW began. The whole idea of their being able to be in disguise on Earth rests on them picking a contemporary vehicle as a disguise. So why all the delving into the past and raising the issue? Form determining function may well have been a problem prior to the war, but the idea that it would even be an issue in the present day flies in the face of everything IDW has published, as you point out.

There are limits though, the disguises seem to have to fit the original altmode to a degree. Bumblebee doesn't turn into a jet fighter, Megatron doesn't turn into a submarine, Optimus Prime doesn't turn into a pager.

Roberts' point seems to be "yes they are Transformers, and this is comics". I have long speculated that Roberts is just building a portfolio and a fan-base, and at some point will be writing something else.

I hope he does move on to greater things eventually, once he's done telling these stories, because he has a keen understanding of the micro and macro of human nature across a wide swath of personality types which he integrates well into storytelling.

But your supposition is remarkably short-sighted considering Roberts was writing TF fanfic long before he got hired as an official writer. That is an exceptionally callous outlook you have there.


I'll once again point out that Prowl isn't really listening to what you guys are saying, he's made up his mind and everything he's reading is twisted by that world-script.

[Dominic]

Existential issues fuel some of humanity's greatest internal conflicts, and all drama is conflict.

I thought you said "greatest internet conflicts".

I hope he does move on to greater things eventually, once he's done telling these stories, because he has a keen understanding of the micro and macro of human nature across a wide swath of personality types which he integrates well into storytelling.

Roberts needs to work on ideas more than "teh feelz" though. He does good character moments. But, I am not sure how much he has had to say since "Last Stand of the Wreckers" (which he co-wrote with Roche). Like Bendis, he is readable. But, I tend to think of ideas as an extra in his work, rather than the focus.

But your supposition is remarkably short-sighted considering Roberts was writing TF fanfic long before he got hired as an official writer. That is an exceptionally callous outlook you have there.

How so? I am not saying there is anything wrong with what he is doing. TF is a good book to build a career from. Roberts can cultivate readers from a pre-existing fan-base. And, hopefully, they follow him to other projects. Nothing wrong with that at all. (I think you are seeing me as more cynical than I am on this front.)

[andersonh1]

Existential issues fuel some of humanity's greatest internal conflicts, and all drama is conflict. Today we on this planet fight wars against terrorists whose existences they believe are meant only to serve to destroy the world of others, whose beliefs are so completely against the majority of free beings that they willingly are attempting to hasten the apocalypse; they would rather NO ONE exist than to face an existence where non-believers exist. The drama of the individual story can drive the drama of all people. You see it as dry, academic, and boring; but these are issues at the core of hatred, murder, fear, war, genocide, and all manner of action and drama.

Some things that are important and dramatic in real life don't make for good fiction. Yes, drama is built around conflict. But not all conflict in drama is interesting, and watching Transformers fight over what they do and don't have a right to turn into and how that used to affect their society millions of years ago just isn't very compelling. The fact that its' an old problem adds to that. It's not really relevant to modern day Transformer society. It's like me complaining about the social pecking order from when I was in high school. Yeah, it affected me back then and I can remember it, but it's long since in the past. It would make no sense to keep going back to that again and again.

But that's a complaint I've expressed before about MTMTE: how often have they had a flashback scene or issue (or now with time travel) set in the past, in order to set up a story in the present? It's a frequent storytelling device that Roberts employs. I would think that with the mix of characters and personalities in the book that there would be plenty of fodder for stories based on the present day, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

There are limits though, the disguises seem to have to fit the original altmode to a degree. Bumblebee doesn't turn into a jet fighter, Megatron doesn't turn into a submarine, Optimus Prime doesn't turn into a pager.

Megatron went from a tank alt mode to a pistol. And it wasn't the first time, as flashbacks in the ongoing series showed. He got stuck in pistol mode for two years once, if I remember right. So he certainly wasn't bound by any alt mode limitations. The question is, was he the exception? We really don't know, though if the government that enforced the social stigmas based on alt mode was long gone, it seems like adherence to those rules would also be long gone.

[Sparky Prime]

and watching Transformers fight over what they do and don't have a right to turn into and how that used to affect their society millions of years ago just isn't very compelling. The fact that its' an old problem adds to that. It's not really relevant to modern day Transformer society. It's like me complaining about the social pecking order from when I was in high school. Yeah, it affected me back then and I can remember it, but it's long since in the past. It would make no sense to keep going back to that again and again.

Just because it was an old problem doesn't mean it's not relevant to the modern day Transformer society. They did just spend the last 400 millions years fighting a war that had a great deal to do with that very reason after all. And in the process of rebuilding their society post-war, you have to question how they'll rebuild from what their society had been before the war. But to do that, we kinda need to see what their society had been like in order to move forward from that. Or as the current storyline has shown us, how bad that society could have become if it hadn't been for the war. Besides, it's a background to the Transformers as a race we've never seen before. How is that not compelling?