More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Sparky Prime]

I haven't seen either series, mostly for that reason. Again, if I wanna see a Batman movie/tv show/comic I'm there for the bat dressed crime fighter. I certainly am not there to see a sad kid learn how to get revenge. The Dark Knight trilogy focused on that about as much as I can tolerate. Because the whole time I'm kind of just sitting there thinking "We all know what's coming just hurry up and get there already." It's not that there aren't interesting stories that can be told, it's just that those types of stories aren't generally why I'm there.

I can understand wanting Batman show up in a Batman story, but that just seems a bit extreme to me. The point behind those shows isn't to see Superman or Batman, it's to see their journey becoming them. There's more to the character than just being Batman. I mean, that sad kid is the whole reason for Batman to exist in the first place.

Or you could have just said "We were talking about the flashback, not Megatron Origin." Sorry, I just got confused.

Well Megatron Origin still factors in, given it's a big part of Megatron's background. It's just that story was written long before the concept of Functionalism came about so it wouldn't have covered that aspect.

[BWprowl]

Actually, I get Prowl's point too, the Functionalist philosophy doesn't really make sense. If Megatron's altmode isn't actually used for his "job" then why specifically do dudes with that altmode have to do that job? Which, again, just feeds Megatron's point, which is probably the entire thing.

Thing is, it could potentially feed Megatron's point, except he never brings it up. All the rantings in his writings we're made privy to is specifically of the "Form determines function" philosophy that he's railing against; that he and others are being made to do specific jobs based on what they turn into being suited for those jobs. At no point does he point out the hypocrisy in the leaders espousing that philosophy just putting a pickaxe in his and everyone else's hands with no regard for what they actually turn into. Unlike Chromedome, he seems acutely unaware of the fact that he never transforms, despite basing his entire philosophy and uprising on how he felt about his transformation.

With so many of the Transformers having ground based altmodes in MTMTE, it's kinda hard to see how they'd get much use out of those forms when so much of the story takes place aboard the Lost Light, unlike Windblade being able to freely fly around on Cybertron as she pleases. It's not like the Energon cartoon series where the cars could drive around in space despite all reason. But still, I do think they utilize transformations more than you give the book credit for.

I don't necessarily require them to TF in my comics. As someone who did a lot of TF writing in the 2000s, I realize the difficulty in structuring scenes around this kind of thing, especially in a character-based comedy-drama series like MTMTE. (Yes, that's how I would describe MTMTE. It is not an "action" comic.)

It is the responsibility of the writer to try to structure scenes around it, given that it is so integral and natural to the characters involved. Like, look at the early scene with Tarn referenced, where him transforming multiple times to get places is inferred to be 'excessive' and indicative of his addiction. First off, that's generally now how addictions manifest in the 'real world'. This isn't Tarn sitting in his quarters transforming back-and-forth purely for gratification, he's actually using his altmode for a purpose that we've seen plenty of TFs do before. If I stand up out of my chair and walk over to the fridge, then walk back, I'm not 'addicted' to walking upright, that's just how I get around and go places because I'm a human being and that's what we do. Likewise, a TF transforming and rolling places because it Sure Beats Walking isn't gratuitous or indicative of an addiction, it's just...how they should be doing things all along.

On a more superficial level, it is a part of the appeal, the 'cool' factor of TFs, and all there is about them. There's no reason they should be parading Megatron's big, kickass, new Autobot body around in front of us, but still not shown us what it turns into after all these issues; that's unacceptable. If Riptide is only being introduced in the cast to be a talking head like the rest of them, then why bother giving him the cool, unqiue altmode of a boat and informing us of that fact, then never bothering to utilize or reference that at all on the page? It's a waste.

I understand that not every story is going to be able to incorporate transformation in a completely integrated way, but when tasked with writing a story about 'Transformers', the writer should at least make an attempt. Roberts goes the completely opposite way, shitting on that concept the entire way and devoting full-page text diatribes to making fans feel bad about liking it. Meanwhile, in McCarthy's book, he has plenty of opportunities to include it, but seems to just plum forget to have them transform, which is unfortunately indicative of laziness more than anything.

[Shockwave]

The point behind those shows isn't to see Superman or Batman, it's to see their journey becoming them. There's more to the character than just being Batman. I mean, that sad kid is the whole reason for Batman to exist in the first place.

Not for me it isn't. What drew me to those characters is the idea of seeing extraordinary characters with extraordinary abilities and how they use those abilities to better the world around them. The back story of how they became those characters is part of the story, sure, but it's not why I buy the ticket. Especially with characters that are already so well known that their backstory is already assumed. Everyone already knows that Superman is an alien. Everyone already knows that Batman is Bruce Wayne and that he bacame that because of his parents' deaths. We don't need that rehashed over and over and over again. The 60's Batman show (to the best of my knowledge) never even referrenced that and just showed Batman being Batman and it was fun and entertaining. The 90's Batman films referrenced his origins but didn't dwell on it, they were mostly just Batman being Batman. The Dark Knight focused on it pretty heavily, but even then it was intermixed with flashbacks but was still focusing more on Batman being Batman. Gotham is nothing more than a lead up to a Batman that we're never going to get and that really annoys me at a conceptual level. If I wanna see a kid deal with death, I can watch Law and Order. If I wanna see a guy fight crime dressed like a bat, I watch Batman. Focusing too much on those backstories, for me, creates a real pacing problem for two reasons: One, we all already know how it ends. Bruce Wayne becomes Batman. Kal-El becomes Superman. Peter Parker becomes Spiderman. We all know all of this already and wasting time on the build up to that is... boring. It's nothing more than a build up to the big payoff of seeing the guy in the costume use abilities other people don't have. THAT'S the fun part. THAT'S the story I want to see. THAT'S the interesting part: Seeing how the character develops the use of those abilities and what they use them for.

And, this is something that bugs me in TF as well. In fact, it's my one main complaint with Infiltration. Six issues of seeing humans find clues about Cybertronians. Six issues of a robot foot here, a hand there... Really? They're in the title! We KNOW what we're going to see, just get to the point and show it already! Then you can actually start telling interesting stories using those characters. I mean, we already know that we're going to be seeing robots so just show us the robots already.

[BWprowl]

Just for the record, I am currently watching and enjoying Gotham, but I didn't go into it as a 'Batman' show (really, Baby Bruce is probably the weakest element of it). Indeed, it's just called 'Gotham' and has more in common with the 'Gotham Central' comic series than anything else. It's generally been exactly what I'd wanted: A police procedural thriller set in Gotham with supervillains.

Were there actually some sort of "Transformers: Action Masters" series, which specifically dealt with Cybertronians that couldn't transform and how that and other affects from Nucleon had an impact on their lives and doings, I could get behind that and it might be interesting. But that's not what we're getting with MTMTE; we get TFs that CAN transform, they just...don't most of the time, and then talk about how horrible transformation is.

Did Roberts have trouble figuring out his TF toys as a kid? Is that where this is coming from?

[Shockwave]

Just for the record, I am currently watching and enjoying Gotham, but I didn't go into it as a 'Batman' show (really, Baby Bruce is probably the weakest element of it). Indeed, it's just called 'Gotham' and has more in common with the 'Gotham Central' comic series than anything else. It's generally been exactly what I'd wanted: A police procedural thriller set in Gotham with supervillains.

Were there actually some sort of "Transformers: Action Masters" series, which specifically dealt with Cybertronians that couldn't transform and how that and other affects from Nucleon had an impact on their lives and doings, I could get behind that and it might be interesting. But that's not what we're getting with MTMTE; we get TFs that CAN transform, they just...don't most of the time, and then talk about how horrible transformation is.

Did Roberts have trouble figuring out his TF toys as a kid? Is that where this is coming from?

I'm wondering how much of this actually is on Roberts and how much is on the artists. Like, does Roberts just write "Pipes goes down the hallway" or does he specifically write "Pipes transforms and drives down the hallway" or "Pipes walks down the hallway"?

[Sparky Prime]

It is the responsibility of the writer to try to structure scenes around it, given that it is so integral and natural to the characters involved.

I wouldn't say transforming is integral to the characters. Optimus Prime is still going to be Optimus Prime if he can transform or not. To continue the super hero comparisons, it'd be like taking away Batman's utility belt. He'd still have all of his fighting prowess and detective skills and everything that makes him Batman, he'd just be with out most of his gadgets.

On a more superficial level, it is a part of the appeal, the 'cool' factor of TFs, and all there is about them.

And that's why toys like the Action Masters and PVC figures (among other non-transforming items) exist? Granted, I'd agree transformation is a central part of Transformers, but it isn't all there is about them. And that's something I think Roberts in exploring, expanding upon the Transformers as characters, where they come from and all of that. That's much more interesting to me than simply just seeing them transform.

I understand that not every story is going to be able to incorporate transformation in a completely integrated way, but when tasked with writing a story about 'Transformers', the writer should at least make an attempt. Roberts goes the completely opposite way, shitting on that concept the entire way and devoting full-page text diatribes to making fans feel bad about liking it. Meanwhile, in McCarthy's book, he has plenty of opportunities to include it, but seems to just plum forget to have them transform, which is unfortunately indicative of laziness more than anything.

I'll never understand your hostility towards Roberts in this regard. Megatron's text wasn't even referring to transformation, that was his thoughts about the state of Cybertronian society at that time, and in-particular, the Functionalist government. And I really do think the characters transform more in that book than you realize. Now McCarthy on the other hand, I kinda think he's a bit like Costa in that he doesn't fully understand the Transformers.

Not for me it isn't. What drew me to those characters is the idea of seeing extraordinary characters with extraordinary abilities and how they use those abilities to better the world around them.

So, why do they have to have a costume to do that? I mean, Smallville had Clark using his powers to save people and indeed the world all the time. Yet he doesn't don a cap or the persona of Superman until the last episode of the series. And the series really wasn't about rehashing his backstory, that's something they covered pretty early on. And it was on for 10 seasons. They covered a lot about the character and mythos in that time, moving well beyond his backstory.

Focusing too much on those backstories, for me, creates a real pacing problem for two reasons: One, we all already know how it ends. Bruce Wayne becomes Batman. Kal-El becomes Superman. Peter Parker becomes Spiderman. We all know all of this already and wasting time on the build up to that is... boring. It's nothing more than a build up to the big payoff of seeing the guy in the costume use abilities other people don't have. THAT'S the fun part. THAT'S the story I want to see. THAT'S the interesting part: Seeing how the character develops the use of those abilities and what they use them for.

See now, you're assuming it's all about the backstories when it isn't. Sure Smallville might end with Clark becoming Superman, but Smallville wasn't all about the backstory, and again, nor did it just rehash it. You think the interesting part is to see how the character develops and use their abilities? Well Smallville did exactly that, and so much MORE. They didn't need a costume to show it either. And as BWprowl points out, neither is Gotham all about Bruce. Really the focus of that show is more on Jim Gordon.

[Shockwave]

So, why do they have to have a costume to do that? I mean, Smallville had Clark using his powers to save people and indeed the world all the time. Yet he doesn't don a cap or the persona of Superman until the last episode of the series. And the series really wasn't about rehashing his backstory, that's something they covered pretty early on. And it was on for 10 seasons. They covered a lot about the character and mythos in that time, moving well beyond his backstory.

See now, you're assuming it's all about the backstories when it isn't. Sure Smallville might end with Clark becoming Superman, but Smallville wasn't all about the backstory, and again, nor did it just rehash it. You think the interesting part is to see how the character develops and use their abilities? Well Smallville did exactly that, and so much MORE. They didn't need a costume to show it either. And as BWprowl points out, neither is Gotham all about Bruce. Really the focus of that show is more on Jim Gordon.

Because some guy 60 years ago drew a guy in costume in a book and that became the iconic look for the character.

Wow. 10 seasons of Superman before he was superman being not Superman. Yawn. It's all taking place before he became the iconic character which makes it all backstory. Maybe they added to it, and it may have even done some new and interesting stuff, but the fact that it's all taking place before the capes and tights makes it backstory. And here's the other annoying part: It ends with him becoming Superman. Ok, so where's the follow up series showing him as a full out capes and tights Superman? Oh right, we don't get to see that because it's the God damn backstory and "we're not telling THAT story" . Again, yawn. As for Gotham, that actually makes it worse because they're basically trying to sell me Law and Order in Batman packaging. Sorry, not buying it. Don't get me wrong, I got nothing against Law and Order, but don't try to sell it to me as Batman. And here's the other annoying part of this for me: If you're gonna tell a story about a character, but ignore everything that makes that character that particular character then why even write it? Why not just write it as something completely new? If you're gonna write a Batman story but it doesn't involve him fighting crime in a bat suit, then why bother with Batman an at all? Why not just write CSI: Gotham or some other made up named super city?

I dunno. I guess it all comes down to concept and maybe marketing? Sort of? I mean, I guess I just expect the content to reflect the title and if something is going to feature a character I'm familiar with, I want to see said character doing the stuff said character is iconic for doing. I buy the Superman ticket to see a man in a cape flying and fighting crime. I buy the Batman ticket to see a guy dressed as a bat and fighting crime. I buy the Transformers ticket to see robots disguise themselves as things. It's really not unreasonable to want the content to pony up and deliver on the expected premise.

[Sparky Prime]

Because some guy 60 years ago drew a guy in costume in a book and that became the iconic look for the character.

So what? It's not the clothes that makes the man, especially seeing how so many super hero costumes have changed and evolved since their original creation. Besides, Superman was actually originally conceived as a villain that looked kinda like Lex Luthor, before Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster decided to re-envision him as a hero.

Wow. 10 seasons of Superman before he was superman being not Superman. Yawn. It's all taking place before he became the iconic character which makes it all backstory. Maybe they added to it, and it may have even done some new and interesting stuff, but the fact that it's all taking place before the capes and tights makes it backstory.

Maybe you should actually see some of the show rather than judge it based on your own preconceived notions of what it's all about. Just because he doesn't wear the costume until the last episode does not make the whole thing backstory at all. He's Superman in all but name (they call him "The Blurr" through most of the series) and the ability to fly long before they got to the end of the series. I mean, he's living in Metropolis, working at the Daily Planet and was dating Lois Lane, despite that all being stuff that happens AFTER he becomes Superman in ALL the other media. He also fought several villains like Doomsday, Zod and Brainiac. Villains he didn't fight until AFTER he became Superman, yet before it in this series. You're badly misrepresenting the show if you think that's all just backstory.

And here's the other annoying part: It ends with him becoming Superman. Ok, so where's the follow up series showing him as a full out capes and tights Superman? Oh right, we don't get to see that because it's the God damn backstory and "we're not telling THAT story" . Again, yawn.

Actually, DC did publish a 'season 11' comic book series that picks up right after the events of the tv series with him being Superman. And I recall there was some talk about making a Smallville movie some years ago, but that obviously fell through.

As for Gotham, that actually makes it worse because they're basically trying to sell me Law and Order in Batman packaging. Sorry, not buying it. Don't get me wrong, I got nothing against Law and Order, but don't try to sell it to me as Batman.

It's not Batman though. And it's not Law and Order. Like BWprowl said, it's more like the Gotham Central comic book.

And here's the other annoying part of this for me: If you're gonna tell a story about a character, but ignore everything that makes that character that particular character then why even write it? Why not just write it as something completely new? If you're gonna write a Batman story but it doesn't involve him fighting crime in a bat suit, then why bother with Batman an at all? Why not just write CSI: Gotham or some other made up named super city?

They aren't ignoring everything that makes that character who they are at all. It just takes place before they take on that identity. Besides, what's wrong with a new take on an old idea? Why is that such a big deal? There's already plenty of alternate versions of the characters that exist across various media, what's one more?

I dunno. I guess it all comes down to concept and maybe marketing? Sort of? I mean, I guess I just expect the content to reflect the title and if something is going to feature a character I'm familiar with, I want to see said character doing the stuff said character is iconic for doing. I buy the Superman ticket to see a man in a cape flying and fighting crime. I buy the Batman ticket to see a guy dressed as a bat and fighting crime. I buy the Transformers ticket to see robots disguise themselves as things. It's really not unreasonable to want the content to pony up and deliver on the expected premise.

It's kinda hard to have Superman with out Clark Kent, or Batman without Bruce Wayne though. That's also a big part of who they are as characters and why they are the superheroes that they are. And how long do the Transformers generally last with their altmodes actually serving as disguises? There's much more to the characters then disguising themselves and fighting bad guys.

[Shockwave]

It's kinda hard to have Superman with out Clark Kent, or Batman without Bruce Wayne though. That's also a big part of who they are as characters and why they are the superheroes that they are.

Yes, but again, that's not why people "buy the ticket". DC isn't marketing Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne, they're marketing Superman and Batman, because that's what interests people and that's what sells. Honestly, this isn't rocket surgery, why is it so hard to understand that some of us actually want the titular characters and concepts to show up in the media that's selling those characters and concepts to begin with? People buy Superman for Superman, no one is buying it for Clark Kent just like no one is buying Batman for Bruce Wayne and when people buy Transformers they expect a robot to transform into something. These are not unreasonable expectations.

And how long do the Transformers generally last with their altmodes actually serving as disguises? There's much more to the characters then disguising themselves and fighting bad guys.

That's a failure of the writers in my opinion. Even as a kid, parts of Season 2 and pretty much all of season 3 is where I started to lose interest in the franchise because they had lost the core concept of disguise. Once a franchise gets too far away from it's original concept, it might as well be something else. As for there being more to the characters, that would be a success of the writing but ultimately should not take away from the core concept.

[Sparky Prime]

Yes, but again, that's not why people "buy the ticket". DC isn't marketing Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne, they're marketing Superman and Batman, because that's what interests people and that's what sells. Honestly, this isn't rocket surgery, why is it so hard to understand that some of us actually want the titular characters and concepts to show up in the media that's selling those characters and concepts to begin with? People buy Superman for Superman, no one is buying it for Clark Kent just like no one is buying Batman for Bruce Wayne and when people buy Transformers they expect a robot to transform into something. These are not unreasonable expectations.

I'm not saying it's an unreasonable expectation. But again that's not the point of shows like Smallville and Gotham to see Superman and Batman. Those are both series that takes place before they become those heroes, yet they were/are extremely successful series despite that. And there have been plenty of non-transforming Transformers toys over the years. I'm just saying that goes to show people don't necessarily "buy the ticket" for the reasons that you keep insisting and that there is more to those characters/franchises than that.

That's a failure of the writers in my opinion. Even as a kid, parts of Season 2 and pretty much all of season 3 is where I started to lose interest in the franchise because they had lost the core concept of disguise. Once a franchise gets too far away from it's original concept, it might as well be something else. As for there being more to the characters, that would be a success of the writing but ultimately should not take away from the core concept.

I really can't fault the writers when I've never really seen "disguise" to be a core concept, despite the theme song. I mean, when the Transformers originally took on Earth forms in G1... They were in stasis lock, and Teletraan 1 just went to work on its own with out really any explanation of why they needed to take on local forms, and then they immediately ran into some humans, never once pretending to just be ordinary vehicles. Heck, the only time I can recall a Transformer actually using their altmode as a disguise in G1 was Soundwave to trick Spike into taking him onto the Ark.