More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Onslaught Six]

It's not a failure of the storytelling for not showing him use his alt. mode those flashbacks. The whole point of Megatron's backstory is that the functionalist ideology is flawed to begin with, and that many Cybertronian citizens (Megatron in-particular) feel they shouldn't be conscripted to a specific job just because of what they transform into, which Megatron ultimately rebels against.

How is that not a failure? We're told "He was forced to become a miner because that's what his altmode designated him as". The ENTIRE Functionalist philosophy is "What your altmode does is your job". Yet when we actually see him doing that job, it's just him standing there holding a pickaxe in Robot Mode. It undermines the ENTIRE basis for the philosophy and its flaws when all we're shown is that literally any robot with ARMS could do the job, and their altmode actually had nothing to do with it!

That's the point of Megatron's entire fucking rebellion, isn't it? "These guys are imposing entirely arbitrary bullshit on us, let's murder all of them?"

[Sparky Prime]

How is that not a failure? We're told "He was forced to become a miner because that's what his altmode designated him as". The ENTIRE Functionalist philosophy is "What your altmode does is your job". Yet when we actually see him doing that job, it's just him standing there holding a pickaxe in Robot Mode. It undermines the ENTIRE basis for the philosophy and its flaws when all we're shown is that literally any robot with ARMS could do the job, and their altmode actually had nothing to do with it!

Actually, the Functionalist philosophy is that a Cybertronians role in society is determined by their altmode. That's not the same thing as whatever the altmode does is their job. For many Cybertronians with job specific altmodes that probably would be the case, but not every altmode would be so clear cut. What about being a truck says "cop" in the case of Orion Pax for an example? Similarly, Megatron's original altmode doesn't stand out particularly as a mining vehicle given it has nothing equipped on it to actually do that job. But given its tank-like design, it does make for a solid looking manual labor vehicle, hence why he is a miner in the first place, which he probably used to haul ore out of the mines. But how he may have utilized his altmode as a miner isn't the point of the story. The point is, he was a low class manual laborer because of his altmode under the Functionalist government, and that wasn't what Megatron wanted to do with his life.

I was speaking colloquially, but you're right. The point is, if I pick up a 'Batman' book, I'm generally going to expect some mystery-solvin' and bad-guy-beatin' to take place, preferably by a guy in a Bat-themed costume. You give me 22 pages of Bruce Wayne standing in a grocery store talking to a random guy about his hobbies, I'm going to feel a bit ripped off.

But Bruce Wayne is still Batman even if he's not in costume. As such, sometimes he does find himself in situations where he has to act despite being out of costume, which actually can make for some pretty interesting stories of Bruce trying to save the day and protect his secret identity. Similarly a Transformer is still a Transformer, even if we don't see them transform in a particular issue.

Which is why integrating the transforming into the story, or at least the presentation, is important. Maybe having Windblade in vehicle mode flying over the city while her situation and issues are discussed isn't super-critical to the story itself, but it's sure a lot more interestingly-presented than dudes just standing around being talking heads the way they are in MTMTE.

With so many of the Transformers having ground based altmodes in MTMTE, it's kinda hard to see how they'd get much use out of those forms when so much of the story takes place aboard the Lost Light, unlike Windblade being able to freely fly around on Cybertron as she pleases. It's not like the Energon cartoon series where the cars could drive around in space despite all reason. But still, I do think they utilize transformations more than you give the book credit for.

It's maddening to see Ratchet and Drift run everywhere in Empire of Stone, since I'm like "I'm pretty sure you guys could get somewhere faster if you DROVE! I can see wheels RIGHT THERE on you!"

A book written by McCarthy I'd point out.

[Onslaught Six]

Actually, I get Prowl's point too, the Functionalist philosophy doesn't really make sense. If Megatron's altmode isn't actually used for his "job" then why specifically do dudes with that altmode have to do that job? Which, again, just feeds Megatron's point, which is probably the entire thing.

[Sparky Prime]

Actually, I get Prowl's point too, the Functionalist philosophy doesn't really make sense. If Megatron's altmode isn't actually used for his "job" then why specifically do dudes with that altmode have to do that job? Which, again, just feeds Megatron's point, which is probably the entire thing.

We've been told how the Functionalist government would determine a Cybertronians place in society by ranking their altmodes based on what they could do and how commonplace they are. Memory sticks for example were ranked as a "disposable class" because they were so common they were seen to be expendable. Megatron was also obviously fairly low in Cybertronian society, so his altmode must have also been pretty common, and regulated to only manual labor type jobs like mining.

[Dominic]

I was speaking colloquially, but you're right. The point is, if I pick up a 'Batman' book, I'm generally going to expect some mystery-solvin' and bad-guy-beatin' to take place, preferably by a guy in a Bat-themed costume. You give me 22 pages of Bruce Wayne standing in a grocery store talking to a random guy about his hobbies, I'm going to feel a bit ripped off.

Again, priorities.

If I get 22 good pages worth of Bruce Wayne talking, then I am fine with that. (Admittedly, it might not be likely to get that. But, you know what I mean.)

During Gillen's run on "Iron Man", there was a two or three part arc focusing on "the Secret Origin of Tony Stark". Tony barely showed up in that arc and was not flying around in his suit going "powwhamzap" on bad guys. But, it was good comics.

Simlarly, when I read "Uber", there are certain characters that I really like to see. (Gillen's take on real Nazis like Guderian and Goebbels are some of my favourite scenes. I sort of miss Hitler after he got offed last year. Katayusha is disturbingly adorable.) But, if Gillen does not use them, I do not get bent out of shape. If he goes an issue or two without a fight between enhanced humans, I am okay with it, so long as the comic is good.

[Shockwave]

Well put me in the Prowl/O6 camp. The title and concept is why I show up. If I buy a Batman comic, it better have a guy dressed as a bat fighting crime at some point, because that's what drew me to it in the first place. I'm not interested in the shopping habits of Bruce Wayne. If I want to see a guy not in some costume dealing with normal drama, well I can get that anywhere. There's plenty of tv or I could probably just talk to people I know and listen to whatever normal shit they've got going on. That's not why I read comics. I read comics to see people in crazy costumes doing shit normal people don't (like fight crime or try to take over the world or whatever). So yeah, if I buy a Superman comic, he better don the cape and fly around at some point. Batman should be Batman. Iron Man should fly around and blast shit. Transformers should transform. As for Megatron Origins, I also agree with Prowl there too. Maybe one way they could have better illustrated Megatron's rebellion better if they had shown the other miners in their alt modes and Megatron in bot mode. A follow up panel with Meg's supervisor telling him that his production numbers are down because he's not using his alt mode, etc... there were certainly better ways to illustrate and literally show that point. And even when I read it, I still wonder what everyone transforms into.

[Onslaught Six]

I am not necessarily in Prowl's camp. I have noticed it, but it doesn't bother me personally, and if I wasn't looking for it, I wouldn't have noticed. (I didn't realize nobody transformed in Empire of Stone, for example, until I rethought it with that in mind.)

I don't necessarily require them to TF in my comics. As someone who did a lot of TF writing in the 2000s, I realize the difficulty in structuring scenes around this kind of thing, especially in a character-based comedy-drama series like MTMTE. (Yes, that's how I would describe MTMTE. It is not an "action" comic.)

[Sparky Prime]

So yeah, if I buy a Superman comic, he better don the cape and fly around at some point. Batman should be Batman.

So how do you feel about shows like Smallville or Gotham, where those heroes aren't Superman or Batman yet? As I said before, I think they can still tell some entertaining stories without having them in costume, or a minimal amount of time in costume at any rate. Actually, I have a Superman/Batman comic that takes place before they knew each others secret identities, so they keep trying to slip away to change but they keep getting in each others way forcing them to do things covertly, until Bruce tries to knock out Clark with some sleeping gas and they figure out each others identities. It's a really good story that doesn't need the heroes in costume to be who they are.

Maybe one way they could have better illustrated Megatron's rebellion better if they had shown the other miners in their alt modes and Megatron in bot mode. A follow up panel with Meg's supervisor telling him that his production numbers are down because he's not using his alt mode, etc... there were certainly better ways to illustrate and literally show that point. And even when I read it, I still wonder what everyone transforms into.

At the time Megatron Origin was written, they hadn't come up with the concept of the Functionalist government yet. The reason for Megatron's rebellion was simply shown to be the Senate announcing the energon mine Megatron worked at would be converting to automation, and one of the miners is executed when he protests. There's no reason to show the miners transforming because that had nothing to do with the Senate's decision, they were just greedy and corrupt looking to get their hands and all the energon they could.
But as I recall, we do see Megatron use his altmode while in the gladiator pits in that story.

[Shockwave]

So yeah, if I buy a Superman comic, he better don the cape and fly around at some point. Batman should be Batman.

So how do you feel about shows like Smallville or Gotham, where those heroes aren't Superman or Batman yet? As I said before, I think they can still tell some entertaining stories without having them in costume, or a minimal amount of time in costume at any rate. Actually, I have a Superman/Batman comic that takes place before they knew each others secret identities, so they keep trying to slip away to change but they keep getting in each others way forcing them to do things covertly, until Bruce tries to knock out Clark with some sleeping gas and they figure out each others identities. It's a really good story that doesn't need the heroes in costume to be who they are.

Maybe one way they could have better illustrated Megatron's rebellion better if they had shown the other miners in their alt modes and Megatron in bot mode. A follow up panel with Meg's supervisor telling him that his production numbers are down because he's not using his alt mode, etc... there were certainly better ways to illustrate and literally show that point. And even when I read it, I still wonder what everyone transforms into.

At the time Megatron Origin was written, they hadn't come up with the concept of the Functionalist government yet. The reason for Megatron's rebellion was simply shown to be the Senate announcing the energon mine Megatron worked at would be converting to automation, and one of the miners is executed when he protests. There's no reason to show the miners transforming because that had nothing to do with the Senate's decision, they were just greedy and corrupt looking to get their hands and all the energon they could.
But as I recall, we do see Megatron use his altmode while in the gladiator pits in that story.

I haven't seen either series, mostly for that reason. Again, if I wanna see a Batman movie/tv show/comic I'm there for the bat dressed crime fighter. I certainly am not there to see a sad kid learn how to get revenge. The Dark Knight trilogy focused on that about as much as I can tolerate. Because the whole time I'm kind of just sitting there thinking "We all know what's coming just hurry up and get there already." It's not that there aren't interesting stories that can be told, it's just that those types of stories aren't generally why I'm there.

Or you could have just said "We were talking about the flashback, not Megatron Origin." Sorry, I just got confused.

[andersonh1]

So yeah, if I buy a Superman comic, he better don the cape and fly around at some point. Batman should be Batman.

So how do you feel about shows like Smallville or Gotham, where those heroes aren't Superman or Batman yet? As I said before, I think they can still tell some entertaining stories without having them in costume, or a minimal amount of time in costume at any rate.

I'm not watching Gotham because it's hard for me to be interested in a Batman show without Batman. Maybe that's why I could never get all that interested in Smallville either, despite making a few attempts. A couple of guys I used to work with would watch it every week and discuss it, and I thought I'd watch a few episodes so I could join in. But it just never caught my interest.

Those shows may be good, but they aren't for me. I'd rather watch the costumed heroes in action. And Transformers who don't transform on a fairly regular basis aren't what I'm looking for either.