More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[andersonh1]

Magnus seems to be your chief focus here, and on that angle I kind of understand but don't feel aggressively negative towards the issue. My big issue would be timeline concerns, when you have these flashbacks to all the great Ultra Magnus moments 2 issues ago and instead of being an inner flashback they're secretly an external editorial statement about the various times Ultra Fakesus passed on, you then open up the question of where Tyrest was during this, how he was able to get the Magnus armor back, how he was able to scout recruits, how these recruits were deemed substantive to carry the role of the character, and all within a reasonable timeframe between them, it leaves the whole thing open to a lot of questions that feel like they're probably shoehorned rather than organic. Also, Ultra Fakesus' role in the universe doesn't seem to actually jive with Tyrest's stated mission, at least not clearly. And the use of attention deflectors for internal repairs is just cheap as it gets, if you open up a body and don't see what's going on, there's no way to fix it.

I'm not negative towards the issue as a whole, it's mainly just the Magnus storyline that's annoying me. Though the fact that two of the adversaries, Pharma and Tyrest, are insane as an excuse for their villainy feels like laziness.

But that's not always a bad thing. Look at Keyser Soze. Look at a ton of plot points in this comic that have already been turned on their ear. If we've watched Ultra Magnus grow and change and act on those things, even if that person isn't the original Ultra Magnus, we've still seen their character arc, we've still seen that person do those things. Is it unfair in a spy story to have a sleeper agent? I don't think so. Just because we know this name doesn't mean he's automatically the same man, look at IDW Galvatron.

It's a bad thing here. All this time we're meant to have been reading about IDW's version of Ultra Magnus, who, like Galvatron, had been given a new interpretation and role. And that's great, I thought both characters benefited from being moved away from past versions. Galvatron in particular needed to be freed from the 1986 movie concept of being a rebuilt Megatron. That was a good plot twist at the time, but there was no need to revisit it yet again.

This is different. It doesn't matter that all the stuff we've seen still happened. It was never Magnus it was happening to. It was Albus, the guy in disguise, a brand new character who is essentially replacing Ultra Magnus. Am I supposed to care about Albus, to be absorbed in his plight? I'm too busy being annoyed that Ultra Magnus is dead in IDW continuity, and has been the whole time. We've never had a genuine Ultra Magnus storyline. It's always been Mr. No-Name-Roberts-Fan-Character in disguise.

As I said, I feel cheated. I'd rather read about the actual Ultra Magnus, not some guy playing a part.

[BWprowl]

It's a bad thing here. All this time we're meant to have been reading about IDW's version of Ultra Magnus, who, like Galvatron, had been given a new interpretation and role.

I'm confused about how this doesn't still constitute IDW's version of Ultra Magnus. That's what he is here: 'Ultra Magnus' is the identity of an enforcer that can be passed onto other characters in the event of one's death or resignation. That's just...that's how it works in this continuity, apparently.

And that's great, I thought both characters benefited from being moved away from past versions. Galvatron in particular needed to be freed from the 1986 movie concept of being a rebuilt Megatron. That was a good plot twist at the time, but there was no need to revisit it yet again.

This is different. It doesn't matter that all the stuff we've seen still happened. It was never Magnus it was happening to. It was Albus, the guy in disguise, a brand new character who is essentially replacing Ultra Magnus. Am I supposed to care about Albus, to be absorbed in his plight? I'm too busy being annoyed that Ultra Magnus is dead in IDW continuity, and has been the whole time. We've never had a genuine Ultra Magnus storyline. It's always been Mr. No-Name-Roberts-Fan-Character in disguise.

As I said, I feel cheated. I'd rather read about the actual Ultra Magnus, not some guy playing a part.

Okay, so I guess if I'm reading this right: This whole time you were following IDW Magnus up until now, from his first Spotlight to his appearances in Maximum Dinobots and the Ongoing and LSotW and MTMTE here, through all of that you were primarily enjoying reading about him not because of the characterization he was presented as having, or the development they were giving him, or the ideas they were presenting as elements of his character, but simply because he was presented as having the same name and design as another toy/cartoon character from the 80's? And now that he doesn't have that anymore, he's not cool and you don't like him now, even though he's still the same character you've been following and growing to know since the beginning? Not to be too blunt but that...that's kinda shallow.

[andersonh1]

Okay, so I guess if I'm reading this right:

You aren't.

This whole time you were following IDW Magnus up until now, from his first Spotlight to his appearances in Maximum Dinobots and the Ongoing and LSotW and MTMTE here, through all of that you were primarily enjoying reading about him not because of the characterization he was presented as having, or the development they were giving him, or the ideas they were presenting as elements of his character, but simply because he was presented as having the same name and design as another toy/cartoon character from the 80's?

No, because when I saw stories featuring Ultra Magnus, I actually thought I was reading a story about Ultra Magnus. Silly me.

And now that he doesn't have that anymore, he's not cool and you don't like him now, even though he's still the same character you've been following and growing to know since the beginning? Not to be too blunt but that...that's kinda shallow.

He's not the same character. All this time I thought I was reading about Ultra Magnus, and I was when Furman or Costa were the authors. No doubt they meant for him to be the genuine article. Suddenly I'm not reading about Ultra Magnus, I'm reading about Minimus Ambus, a new character who has just appeared out of nowhere. And all because James Roberts thought it would be cute to write a story based on the fact that the original Ultra Magnus toy is a bunch of snap on armor pieces that fit on a white Optimus Prime.

You know, if we'd seen the genuine Ultra Magnus small white robot underneath, and the story was that he was some weakling who needed the armor to do his job, or something like that, I'd have been fine with it. We'd still have the genuine article. But making him another bot entirely is just disrespectful of the readership of the book. It prevents us from seeing the genuine Magnus for some ersatz version.

What if it had been Optimus Prime who turned out to be someone else named Ambus? For that matter, transplant this idea to any other character. "The genuine Optimus Prime died out centuries ago, but I've been using his name and reputation ever since." "The genuine Starscream died a long time ago, but I've been using his name and reputation to climb the ranks." "The original Wheelie died off centuries ago, but I love rhymes so I've stolen his name and adopted his appearance." Come on, this whole thing is a cheat. We've all been cheated out of seeing the genuine Ultra Magnus develop and grow, because it's never been him. How hard is that to understand?

I'm starting to get your annoyance with Prowl over in RID. There it was Bombshell pretending to be Prowl, which at least had the virtue of being based in the character's pre-existing modus operandi of mental control over others. Here it's fan fiction character Ambus pretending to be Magnus. It's just like inserting Rung into the series and then having him be a "historical constant" who has been around for every major event. Why are these fan characters being promoted over genuine Transformers characters, to the point that one of them now IS a major character?

[BWprowl]

No, because when I saw stories featuring Ultra Magnus, I actually thought I was reading a story about Ultra Magnus. Silly me.

But that IS Ultra Magnus! That's what Ultra Magnus is in this continuity! That's the role/character/whatever he's been reinvented as having!

He's not the same character. All this time I thought I was reading about Ultra Magnus, and I was when Furman or Costa were the authors. No doubt they meant for him to be the genuine article. Suddenly I'm not reading about Ultra Magnus, I'm reading about Minimus Ambus, a new character who has just appeared out of nowhere. And all because James Roberts thought it would be cute to write a story based on the fact that the original Ultra Magnus toy is a bunch of snap on armor pieces that fit on a white Optimus Prime.

You know, if we'd seen the genuine Ultra Magnus small white robot underneath, and the story was that he was some weakling who needed the armor to do his job, or something like that, I'd have been fine with it. We'd still have the genuine article. But making him another bot entirely is just disrespectful of the readership of the book. It prevents us from seeing the genuine Magnus for some ersatz version.

I'm genuinely not getting the big issue here, and I'm sorry. You're acting like all of a sudden, due to this reveal, EVERYTHING this Magnus did no longer counts towards his character, but it does. This is still the same guy who cut a deal with Swindle for information then tracked him down and arrested him anyway. This is still the same guy who prioritized bringing Grimlock but still assisted him on Earth for the greater good. It's still the same guy who came to investigate Ironhide's death and contributed to the bifurcation of the Autobots. It's still the same guy who became friends with Verity while traveling through space with her. Does NONE of that count for anything to you? Was literally the only reason you cared about reading about the character because he was a big blue guy named 'Ultra Magnus'?

What if it had been Optimus Prime who turned out to be someone else named Ambus? For that matter, transplant this idea to any other character. "The genuine Optimus Prime died out centuries ago, but I've been using his name and reputation ever since." "The genuine Starscream died a long time ago, but I've been using his name and reputation to climb the ranks." "The original Wheelie died off centuries ago, but I love rhymes so I've stolen his name and adopted his appearance." Come on, this whole thing is a cheat. We've all been cheated out of seeing the genuine Ultra Magnus develop and grow, because it's never been him. How hard is that to understand?

As far as this story is concerned, this IS the genuine Ultra Magnus. He's the only one we've ever read about in the context of this story. It's not like they revealed that Ambus was a recent Magnus, and the ones we'd read about in the Spotlight, MaxDinos, and LSotW were separate dudes who'd been killed off-panel and replaced, this has always been the same guy we've been following and reading about. Why do we care about Ultra Magnus 1.0? We never saw him do anything, never followed any development, he has nothing to do with this. He only exists as a backstory element for AmbusMagnus, who IS this story's interpretation of 'Ultra Magnus' as a character element of Transformers. How come he's not valid as an 'Ultra Magnus' in the story just because he's not the first one?

If they were to reveal that the Starscream we've been following all this time wasn't 'the original' Starscream, and just took his name from a famous lieutenant of Megatron's in the past, who cares? This Starscream is still the one we've been following the whole time, all the development and stuff we've seen him do still counts, just now we have a new wrinkle to his backstory, a new element of 'who he is' that can ADD to his characterization. That's why I said, if anything, a character like Ultra Magnus BENEFITS from something like this being added into his backstory and characterization.

[andersonh1]

No, because when I saw stories featuring Ultra Magnus, I actually thought I was reading a story about Ultra Magnus. Silly me.

But that IS Ultra Magnus! That's what Ultra Magnus is in this continuity!

And that's my problem. Ultra Magnus has always been an individual, not an assumed identity, and up until now, that's what I thought I was reading. I don't like this plot twist, and I don't care to read about James Roberts' newly-invented character.

It all comes down to emotional investment in a character. I read a character, something about him or her is to my liking, and I end up following the story for months or years. That emotional investment in a character's fate can be broken in a variety of ways, and revealing that "everything you know is a lie" or "he's not who you thought he was" is certainly one way to do that.

[Shockwave]

Did they ever explain how he was controlling the armor while being in that cell for all these eons?

[Sparky Prime]

Did they ever explain how he was controlling the armor while being in that cell for all these eons?

He was only placed in the cell shortly before Rodimus and the others were arrested on Luna-1. Ambus was inside the Magnus armor prior to that the whole time. There's a scene where Tyrest presses a button and the armor disassembles itself revealing Ambus.

[BWprowl]

And that's my problem. Ultra Magnus has always been an individual, not an assumed identity, and up until now, that's what I thought I was reading.

And up until this continuity, Galvatron was always an upgraded Megatron from the future, but that's changed too.

It all comes down to emotional investment in a character. I read a character, something about him or her is to my liking, and I end up following the story for months or years. That emotional investment in a character's fate can be broken in a variety of ways, and revealing that "everything you know is a lie" or "he's not who you thought he was" is certainly one way to do that.

It just fundamentally bugs me that apparently the name and physical appearance of a character are more important for you in getting 'invested' in them than the deeds they do or characterization they receive. It's like, up until now, did you only like Ultra Magnus in this comic series because he was a big blue guy named 'Ultra Magnus', none of the stuff he actually did on the page contributed to endearing him to you? Nothing about AmbusMagnus's personality was fundamentally changed, all they did was (literally) strip away an outer layer to reveal some things about him we didn't know before. This is equivalent to the reveals about Prowl being a Neutral before the war, or Shockwave being a non-monoeyed Autobot Senator before his power play was discovered and he was punished for it. Tailgate is actually waste disposal specialist from Nova Prime's era of Cybertron, Whirl is actually a former corrupt police officer who became so after Empurata ruined his watchmaking career, Fulcrum was actually a punished Decepticon deserter with a bomb for an altmode, and Ultra Magnus is actually a smaller guy named Ambus who wears armor. A character's full identity and past doesn't always have to be laid out on the table as soon as they're introduced, that would cheapen the effectiveness of such 'reveals' later in the storytelling.

On a slightly different topic, I just realized that Magnus's status as an enforcer within his own faction who's actually an assumed identity/legacy effectively makes him the Autobot counterpart to the Decepticon Justice Division, whom we've been told work pretty much the same way. Inneresting.

[andersonh1]

And up until this continuity, Galvatron was always an upgraded Megatron from the future, but that's changed too.

And the changes made to him were long overdue and very refreshing. But here's the key thing: he's still Galvatron. Ultra Magnus in IDW continuity isn't Ultra Magnus, he's some guy named Minimus Ambus. You still see him as the same character and don't care what he's called, while in reality he's a new character who's a pretender, not the real thing. All of those things that happened in Spotlight Ultra Magnus or the ongoing series or Last Stand of the Wreckers didn't happen to Ultra Magnus, they happened to Minimus Ambus wearing an Ultra Magnus costume. He was cosplaying. He's an actor, playing a role assigned him by Tyrest.

Names matter. Spotlight: Minimus Ambus. Doesn't have quite the same ring, does it?

It just fundamentally bugs me that apparently the name and physical appearance of a character are more important for you in getting 'invested' in them than the deeds they do or characterization they receive.

It's all part of the same package. It's not an either/or proposition here. Characters don't generally exist without names and faces any more than they exist without action. All of it matters.

It's like, up until now, did you only like Ultra Magnus in this comic series because he was a big blue guy named 'Ultra Magnus', none of the stuff he actually did on the page contributed to endearing him to you? Nothing about AmbusMagnus's personality was fundamentally changed, all they did was (literally) strip away an outer layer to reveal some things about him we didn't know before. This is equivalent to the reveals about Prowl being a Neutral before the war, or Shockwave being a non-monoeyed Autobot Senator before his power play was discovered and he was punished for it. Tailgate is actually waste disposal specialist from Nova Prime's era of Cybertron, Whirl is actually a former corrupt police officer who became so after Empurata ruined his watchmaking career, Fulcrum was actually a punished Decepticon deserter with a bomb for an altmode, and Ultra Magnus is actually a smaller guy named Ambus who wears armor. A character's full identity and past doesn't always have to be laid out on the table as soon as they're introduced, that would cheapen the effectiveness of such 'reveals' later in the storytelling.

This isn't about simply revealing some previously unknown (or uncreated) part of a character's past. This is about taking a character and revealing that he's someone else entirely. It would be like taking Superman after 75 years of comics and suddenly revealing that he's never been Clark Kent. Kent died on his first assignment, and it's been a clone all along, or General Zod taking Kent's name and powers and carrying the torch. Or maybe there was a succession of Superman. Do you see how disrespectful that kind of stunt is to the readership, or past creators? We haven't had elaboration and building onto the character of Ultra Magnus here, we've had the old switcheroo. "Surprise, it's not really Ultra Magnus, because he's been dead for years! It's me, moustache man!"

It's not building and adding to a character that's happened here, it's replacement.

[Shockwave]

Ok, so just so I'm clear (I promise I will read this at some point): Ambus is basically just the name for the inner robot "cab portion" of Ultra Magnus but it's been the same Ambus we've seen all along? And there was another bot as the inner robot, but that was way before anything we've seen of Ultra Magnus on page?

Also I could kinda get behind an Ultra Magnus spin off series showing the different bots to use the name and armor. Might be interesting to also see the exploits of the "original" UM as well.

But, I'm not especially upset by the cab bot being given a name.