More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Dominic]

I'm not buying it. Not unless we see him expire on-panel.

Having his profile crossed out on the cast page is pretty unambigous. At most, Magnus gets an drawn out emo death scene in the next issue.

And there's a way for Rewind to have survived the explosion, always assuming Overlord was tough enough to live through it. We'll see.

The big problem here is that as soon as a character dies, people are saying "he will be back....", effectively making MTMTE like every other damned comic on the shelves. (And, this is despite the fact that the character profile page lists Rewind as being dead......)

Dom lent me his collection of MTMTE and I've read 2 issues so far, so I'll not be reading the thread all the way through until I am more caught up, but I wanted to give first impressions. Luckily, Prowl and Dom have done most of that for me...

Lent? Brother, those are now yours.

I kinda liked it, but it was silly.

Foil covers = 90s.

This is how I felt about it as well, even though it turns out not to be the case in issue 2 where they cheat their way out of it (seriously, that thing with Ore too close to the engine is a ripoff, makes no sense in the context provided, why would the engine be fluxing while they're merely leaving the atmosphere?). This is overly ham-handed in the way they deal with it, it sets a bad tone where they're not really going to pay off on these characters we're leaving behind since their motivations are more than meets the eye but their characters aren't.

In fairness, that plot has probably not been resolved yet. Something obviously went wrong. And, given that we are talking about sci-fi tech going wroing in a sci-fi way, I can buy that somebody got phased/fuzed with the wall.

Maaaaan, I don't understand how everyone doesn't just think this is the coolest thing ever. Maybe I just get it.

The book is obnoxiously whimsical.

PS - as for Drift, I have no idea what they intended with the character, but they've made him way too happy and bubbly and toadying, and it's too much, it's not true to the character, there's no honesty there.

Drift is being treated as a clown now, because "Drift am suxxorlolololololol".

And they have elements involved which seem compelling or controversial - Swerve shooms his face off, Chromedome and Rewind are asexual gay partners, the monoformer religious movement hinting at greater effects, a guy being sad that he's a leg - but none of that resonates at all because there's another inside reference to make, another joke, another shocking thing that ends up being no big deal.

I really liked the suicide clinics myself. But, Roberts does not seem to have anything he really wants to do with this gaming/source-book friendly world that he has built.

Part of me wants to see where issues 13-15 end up going, maybe I'll throw a few bucks at my local comic shop (I already ordered the RID collections 1-3 on Amazon since Dom sent me issue 5 and they seemed to deliver on the ideas they're intending to even while Sky Byte appears on the scene), but I will do it knowing it's a guilty pleasure from my connection with some of these characters rather than a truly compelling story.

Glad to see you getting in to comics.



Dom
-has flipped through recent issues of MTMTE, and has no regrets about dropping the book.

[JediTricks]

I hit up my local shop to pick up up more MTMTE, they were sold out of 13 and 15 and the annual, only had a single issue of 14 and a MOUNTAIN of RID (although very swiss cheese in numbering), said MTMTE is very popular. I bought issue 14 to support the shop, probably will get RID and MTMTE on the pull list when I get caught up after Wondercon this week (I'll get the 13 and 15 issues there, and pad the RID issues from 12 on since 10-11 will be in the collection I have coming in late April).

Dom lent me his collection of MTMTE and I've read 2 issues so far, so I'll not be reading the thread all the way through until I am more caught up, but I wanted to give first impressions. Luckily, Prowl and Dom have done most of that for me...

Lent? Brother, those are now yours.

Whaaaat? No way, thanks, I didn't realize and was planning to send them back since, you know, you paid for 'em.

I kinda liked it, but it was silly.

Foil covers = 90s.

Sure, but so what? Staple bindings are so 1940s, and they come back every once in a while.

This is how I felt about it as well, even though it turns out not to be the case in issue 2 where they cheat their way out of it (seriously, that thing with Ore too close to the engine is a ripoff, makes no sense in the context provided, why would the engine be fluxing while they're merely leaving the atmosphere?). This is overly ham-handed in the way they deal with it, it sets a bad tone where they're not really going to pay off on these characters we're leaving behind since their motivations are more than meets the eye but their characters aren't.

In fairness, that plot has probably not been resolved yet. Something obviously went wrong. And, given that we are talking about sci-fi tech going wroing in a sci-fi way, I can buy that somebody got phased/fuzed with the wall.

For me it has been a year's worth of stories, it's too damned late to come back and say "oh yeah, here's a thing that happened at the beginning."

Maaaaan, I don't understand how everyone doesn't just think this is the coolest thing ever. Maybe I just get it.

The book is obnoxiously whimsical.

I think it's not just the whimsy, it's the disinterest in being anything else BUT that.

Drift is being treated as a clown now, because "Drift am suxxorlolololololol".

I don't see it that way, I see something being attempted differently and it's just too much, too hollow.

I really liked the suicide clinics myself. But, Roberts does not seem to have anything he really wants to do with this gaming/source-book friendly world that he has built.

That hasn't gone anywhere by the time I finished 12, it was a single solid moment but that was it. They hinted at it way earlier but then didn't go anywhere until late in the series. It kind of takes the edge off of near-death scenes though, how do you worry your characters are in peril if they'll survive their heads being blown off and all the other stuff that happens to them? A lot of near-death material that pulls out at the last moment makes sense with Suicide Clinics but takes the weight out of regular hospital drama.

Glad to see you getting in to comics.

I blame you personally. Part of it is no new Star Wars product until fall and very little TF product I want so a lot of collecting income not getting used, $4 a month per title isn't crazy.

[Dominic]

I didn't realize and was planning to send them back

Do not threaten me.

For me it has been a year's worth of stories, it's too damned late to come back and say "oh yeah, here's a thing that happened at the beginning."

I would be more forgiving if Roberts did anything other than the cutesy moments that you mention.

And, regardless of what you think of the pacing, it ain't over yet.

I don't see it that way, I see something being attempted differently and it's just too much, too hollow.

Drift seems to be getting more than his share of chump moments, such as his comedic murder of a patient at the infirmary or his being Rodimus' bitch or him being a kookie religious zealot now.

That hasn't gone anywhere by the time I finished 12, it was a single solid moment but that was it. They hinted at it way earlier but then didn't go anywhere until late in the series. It kind of takes the edge off of near-death scenes though, how do you worry your characters are in peril if they'll survive their heads being blown off and all the other stuff that happens to them? A lot of near-death material that pulls out at the last moment makes sense with Suicide Clinics but takes the weight out of regular hospital drama.

At the very least, we can find a variety of ways to complain about this series. That sort of makes it "more than meets the...." Sorry.

Part of it is no new Star Wars product until fall and very little TF product I want so a lot of collecting income not getting used, $4 a month per title isn't crazy.

You might find that comics will add to the toy collecting hobby. (A good action figure is one thing. A good action figure with ties to a good comic is another thing entirely.) I have generally found that comics are a more rewarding hobby all around than toys.


Dom
-likes TFU Prowl even more for its visual associations with IDW.

[JediTricks]

I didn't realize and was planning to send them back

Do not threaten me.

Aye aye, cap'n!

I would be more forgiving if Roberts did anything other than the cutesy moments that you mention.

And, regardless of what you think of the pacing, it ain't over yet.

How can this ever be "over" when it's not going anywhere? This series is literally the go-nowhere story, it never has an ending because it's just decompressed character moments.

Drift seems to be getting more than his share of chump moments, such as his comedic murder of a patient at the infirmary or his being Rodimus' bitch or him being a kookie religious zealot now.

He did stab a 'con in the face though. Hmm, wait, that wasn't actually such a good moment for him since Roddy was trying to get info out of that guy. Close enough.

At the very least, we can find a variety of ways to complain about this series. That sort of makes it "more than meets the...." Sorry.

I don't get to use this guy nearly enough but it seems appropriate -->

You might find that comics will add to the toy collecting hobby. (A good action figure is one thing. A good action figure with ties to a good comic is another thing entirely.) I have generally found that comics are a more rewarding hobby all around than toys.

FOC Starscream is in RID and yet you came down hard on that figure, so I'm not planning to let it get to me that way. I have lived with comic collecting all my life, it's my mom's hobby, and I find that these never-ending stories are only partly fulfilling because they're a soap opera, they never really end. I prefer novels and mini-series that are telling a specific story, but I can do a few comics a month.

[Dominic]

The best way to look at comics is as runs by certain authors. For example, Byrne's run on "Avengers" is not Bendis' run on "Avengers". Traditionally, one thing (sometimes the only thing) that TF comics have done well is linear story-telling. This goes back to G1 (both Marvel US/UK and the Japanese content). Dreamwave, for all of its financial mismanagement, pulled off the same thing across two sub-properties. And, thus far, IDW has been doing the same thing.

While the franchise may not end, even if the comics are not re-numbered, when creative teams move on or get rotated out it can be seen as the end of a run/story.

I can send you a list of solid mini-series and one-shots (TF and otherwise).

How can this ever be "over" when it's not going anywhere? This series is literally the go-nowhere story, it never has an ending because it's just decompressed character moments.

Zing!


Dom
-needs to get back to that UK comics thread.

[andersonh1]

The big problem here is that as soon as a character dies, people are saying "he will be back....", effectively making MTMTE like every other damned comic on the shelves. (And, this is despite the fact that the character profile page lists Rewind as being dead......)

Is anyone saying that about Pipes? Everyone's assuming he's dead as dead can be. Who else has died during the series? A few minor book-only characters (Shock, Ore, the bot the Sparkeater killed). Black Shadow and Flywheels were killed by the DJD. Magnus is said to be as good as dead by Fixit, but we haven't seen him expire yet. Rewind could have been protected by Overlord from death, assuming Overlord can survive the explosion of the cell, and assuming the slowed time in the cell allows him the time to react.

IDW has a solid track record with leaving dead characters dead, so I wouldn't say this book is like any other comic in that respect. On the other hand, there have been occasions when they wanted to kill a character off and Hasbro wouldn't let that happen. They weren't allowed to kill Kup or Springer in LSOTW, and Kup has vanished into the Dead Universe, so he could be back (if I'm remembering that right). In other words, Hasbro is careful with the fate of major characters. Ultra Magnus is a major character, and unless we see him expire on-panel, I'll reserve judgment.

Don't forget Ironhide. He was killed in issue one of the ongoing, then returned (sort of) thanks to a personality backup made a few million years earlier. He wasn't allowed to be permanently removed from the series.

[Sparky Prime]

IDW has a solid track record with leaving dead characters dead, so I wouldn't say this book is like any other comic in that respect.

You're forgetting some earlier stories... There are some characters that seemingly was killed off and came back (like Sunstreaker or Thundercracker). And then there was Ironhide who died early on in the Ongoing, and was resurrected by Alpha Trion on Cybertron.

[andersonh1]

IDW has a solid track record with leaving dead characters dead, so I wouldn't say this book is like any other comic in that respect.

You're forgetting some earlier stories... There are some characters that seemingly was killed off and came back (like Sunstreaker or Thundercracker). And then there was Ironhide who died early on in the Ongoing, and was resurrected by Alpha Trion on Cybertron.

I specifically mentioned Ironhide, and he wasn't technically resurrected so much as rebuilt and a backup copy of his mind from four million years earlier installed into it, or something like that. He's not the same Ironhide who was killed.

Thundercracker is a fine example. Dom and I argued round and round about whether he was killed at the end of AHM. I maintained that he wasn't, even though he was clearly shot at point blank range. We never saw him die, never saw a body, and sure enough, ongoing #4 revealed that he hadn't been killed at all. Sunstreaker was still alive according to AHM Coda, lying in the scrap heap of dead insecticons.

Who's still dead? Runamuck, Runabout, Nightbeat, Outback, Ramjet, Doubledealer, Deluge, Skyquake, Scrapper... the list goes on and on.

[Dominic]

There are some characters that seemingly was killed off and came back (like Sunstreaker or Thundercracker). And then there was Ironhide who died early on in the Ongoing, and was resurrected by Alpha Trion on Cybertron.

This.

IDW actually does have a poor track record of keeping characters that matter dead. Thus far, Scrapper is the only character who matters who has stayed dead. The others are all secondary and tertiary characters. In many cases, such as Ramjet, they were so radically redefined and rewritten that they were barely even the origional characters at the idiomatic level.

specifically mentioned Ironhide, and he wasn't technically resurrected so much as rebuilt and a backup copy of his mind from four million years earlier installed into it, or something like that. He's not the same Ironhide who was killed.

Thundercracker is a fine example. Dom and I argued round and round about whether he was killed at the end of AHM. I maintained that he wasn't, even though he was clearly shot at point blank range. We never saw him die, never saw a body, and sure enough, ongoing #4 revealed that he hadn't been killed at all. Sunstreaker was still alive according to AHM Coda, lying in the scrap heap of dead insecticons.

I give IDW a pass on Ironhide because they killed him so that they could raise him. (I am only upset that said arc was truncated so much towards the end of Costa's run.) That sort of character death does not count.

Sunstreaker was iffy. When and why was the "Coda" story written? Part of me wonders if it was written to give IDW a post-hoc out on the death of a reasonably popular 1984 character. (I hate to accuse them of that sort of thing. But, I cannot shake the suspicion, ya know?)

Thundercracker not being dead is pure bullshit. He was dead. The art strongly implies, (and leaves nary any space for any alternative), that Skywarp shot Thundercracker in the face at point blank range. Even if we assume that getting shot in the face might not that bad (which for a Cybertronian it probably would not be), IDW clearly back-wrote (no pun intended) Thundercracker's survival to the point that he somehow or another ended up getting shot in the back.

We all know what McCarthy intended with Thundercracker's death. (He was supposed to fucking die.) But, Costa, with the blessing of IDW's (admittedly weak) editorial board, back wrote it so that Thundercracker could survive.

I do not give them a pass on Thundercracker because the back-write was so obvious. But, I can forgive them bringing back Thundercracker because it was thematically consistent with the "change is necessary/good/painful" theme that Costa was running with. (Ironically, I was planning on using issue 4 as my "justified dropping the book" point, and it ended up hooking me.)

We never saw him die, never saw a body, and...

And, when comic fans talk like this.....the problem is partly with them. The comic industry encouraged and rewarded this thinking until some time in the 90s. But, even more fundamentally, the problem is that comic fans seem to like this kind of half-assery to the point where they expect/demand it.

All of that being said...

Magnus and Rewind are listed as dead on the official character lists at the end of the damned book. That character list has no place in context. It is not written from a character's point of view. It is not written in character voice or presented as any sort of crew manifest. The character list is presented as a handy reference for the readers to keep track of the book's cast. And, that list classifies Pipes, Magnus and Rewind as being unambigously dead.

Rewind is a secondary character at most. Magnus is arguably a top tier character. But, he is still classified as being dead both on that list and by a character on page who specifically says that Magnus is fatally injured. The "only dead if you see a body" line of thinking began as a way for lazy writers and editors to justify undoing various character deaths. Jean Grey is one of the more obnoxious examples. (Characters like Electra even got around that rule, coming back despite leaving clean and identifiable remains.)

I *hope* that IDW does not start running with this line of thinking. When I see a character die in a comic by one of the big two, I often think "oh they will be back". But, I am not hoping for it. In fact, I am hoping to be wrong. And, sometimes, even I (for all of my jaded cynicism about the industry) and suprised by who they elect to bring back. (Marvel needed to bring back Mockingbird in the stupidest possible way....why? Really, Scott Lang is back? There was enough call to bring back second and third string characters from....which quarter? DC had to bring back Jade and Hawk? Really? Even they could stay dead?!?!?!?)

If you are reading comics purely for the drama, then why bother reading them when the first reaction people have when a character is listed as being dead is "oh they can survive....."? I am pretty sure that assuming that a character survived what should be an unambigous death runs counter to drama.


Dom
-pretty sure that an official character/cast list is the last word on a character being dead or not.

[Sparky Prime]

I specifically mentioned Ironhide, and he wasn't technically resurrected so much as rebuilt and a backup copy of his mind from four million years earlier installed into it, or something like that. He's not the same Ironhide who was killed.

No, that's not right. It was explained that once Ironhide was killed on Earth, his spark returned to the Core on Cybertron, allowing Alpha Trion to resurrect him in a new body. However, with Vector Sigma basically erased due to all of the damage Cybertron sustained, Alpha Trion wasn't able to restore all of Ironhide's memories, leaving him with a 4 million year memory gap. For all intents and purposes though, he is a resurrected Ironhide.

Thundercracker is a fine example. Dom and I argued round and round about whether he was killed at the end of AHM. I maintained that he wasn't, even though he was clearly shot at point blank range. We never saw him die, never saw a body, and sure enough, ongoing #4 revealed that he hadn't been killed at all. Sunstreaker was still alive according to AHM Coda, lying in the scrap heap of dead insecticons.

I never thought Thundercracker was actually dead either. It was a clear set up bring him back into the story later, but at the same time, the scene was also clearly meant to give the implication he had been killed. Same with Sunstreaker during AHM, sacrificing himself to blow up the bridge in order to keep the Insecticon swarm from reaching the Autobots camp and atone for his betrayal. Only to be later revealed as having (barely) survived in the Coda issues.

Who's still dead? Runamuck, Runabout, Nightbeat, Outback, Ramjet, Doubledealer, Deluge, Skyquake, Scrapper... the list goes on and on.

Point being, IDW doesn't have a solid track record of keeping dead characters "dead".