discussion of contrary context from the US/UK comic

[Dominic]

Like it or not, alternate timelines and multerverses are an assumed part of modern comics and sci-fi. Even pre-Crisis Trilogy DC ("Identity Crisis", "Infinite Crisis" and "Final Crisis") could not fully extirpate the idea despite a concerted effort and editorial directives to do so in the 1980s. The exceptions that DC allowed during those years were largely justified by the need to have in-story explanations for mistakes by writers and editors. This is also one of the primary justifications for having alternate worlds in most on-going fiction. The more inconsistencies that a property has, the more likely it is to have a few alternate timelines.

(It would probably be easier for everybody to just assume that somebody made a mistake, and to occassionally have an editor hand-wave a set of stories away. But, too many fans are not mature enough for that approach, particularly members of fandoms that have an unwarranted sense of ownership of their hobby.)

About 10 years back, TF had the idea of a multiverse formally introduced as part of the "Universe" line, most forcefully in the comics. Because that was an idea that originated with fans before it became official, and the first official handling of it was in the fan-influenced 3H comics (and later Fun Publications), it became an end unto itself rather than a quick and easy way to reconcile mistakes by writers and editors in-context. At this point, there is an entire classification system that is intended to allow dozens of iterations of TF that were never meant to fit together to fit together. It is also being retro-actively applied to the original G1 series, which had more than its share of sloppy errors.

The G1 comics alone could be used as a justification for a half-dozen or so distinct timelines.

The US comic itself ran for 80 issues. The UK comic ran along side, and often through, the US comics for a comparable amount of time. The issue count was considerably higher owing to a different publishing schedule. That same publishing schedule also required the UK TF book to have additional content. While much of the UK exclusive content could largely stand on its own, some it it required a reader to know about the US content.

Towards the end, the US comic required readers to have some understanding of UK content, (specifically the Death Bringer). Similarly, the UK comic split from the US comic somewhere around US issue 50 or so, (this was circa "Time Wars" in the UK), with the black and white filler stories. (These are often called "Earth Force", though only some of them were properly about Earth Force.) Before this point, the UK content could be reconciled with the US content without too much editorial acrobatics. A few editorial fiats and an occassional touch-up to the odd panel were enough to make things fit. But, shortly before Furman took over both books, they became impossible to reconcile without the assumption of alternate timelines. (Furman has made comments to the effect of admitting that he had difficulty juggling an increasingly hectic schedule at a time when the drive was to save money. As lackluster as some of those comics, particularly "Earth Force", were, it is impressive that Furman held up as well as he did at that point.)

Another problem with the old G1 comics is that they references characters and settings that were not unique to TF, or even owned by Hasbro. The "GI Joe" cross-over are discussed in their own thread (in the "other" forums). But, there are also various cross-overs with Marvel that involved or mentioned Spider-Man, the Dazzler, SHIELD, Godzilla, as well as the Savage Land (and by extension the Avengers and Kree). And, Circuit Breaker's first appearance was in the MU set "Secret Wars II".

Marvel, having no desire to integrate another outside property after the debacle with "Rom and the Space Knights", decided that the TF issue referencing Marvel characters (and arguably Circuit Breaker's scene in "Secret Wars II") were set on an alternate world that all of their inter-company and inter-property crossovers were set on. (This would presumably also include their cross-overs with DC in the 1970s.)

Even discounting the recent Marvel/TF crossover (featuring the Avenbers and IDW's G1 cast), the above described "cross-over Earth" was not Marvel's only alternate universe that included Transformers. The timeline that O6 mentions as being the original home of Death's Head was yet another setting. It was referenced in "Incomplete Death's Head". This was presumably not the same as the above "616+Transformers" universe. (Ironically, in this case, the quick fix of alternate universes actually leads to another problem. The timeline that Death's Head originally hailed from was destroyed and replaced during "Time Wars". Marvel made no mention of this in "Incomplete Death's Head". Arguably, this creates and alternate of an alternate, possibly of yet another alternate.


In contrast, the cartoon never really messed around with alternate timelines. There were references to alternate dimensions (such as the one shown in "The Killing Jar"). But, those did not have alternate sets of characters. They were more "strange places that the characters happened to travel to".

Here is a rough break-down of the G1 comic and arguably alternates.

US issues 1-80: Going strictly by what was published, this series assumes that TFs shared a world with "GI Joe" and a number of 616 Marvel characters. (And, if one approaches this from Marvel's side, there are some DC characters included as well.) There were also several references to UK stories. "Man of Iron" arguably happened in this setting, (though its placement is vague based on what was published in the US). There is direct reference to the Death Bringer (circa "Matrix Quest"), which runs contrary to most of the other UK black and white stories *not* fitting with the US comics. And, Furman urged US readers to seek out and read "Another Time and Place", the last G! story published in the UK annual.

The UK comic is more difficult to parse. Before "Time Wars", most of the discrepencies were reconciled with editorial decrees (stating when a given story happened relative to the dominant US series) and with occassional touch-ups to art (typically adding or removing a character from a given scene). But, even there were discrepencies. The UK comic assumes some Marvel 616 characters and setting, (including a visit to the Savage Land long after its destruction in proper 616 Marvel).

The UK comics did not have "GI Joe". The UK had "Action Force", which had its own deviations from "GI Joe". The UK cross-over between Transformers and Action Force were different from the US cross-overs between the TFs and the Joes. (Though, the UK did later get the first US cross-over, despite it not fitting anywhere in with the UK.) To make matters even more complicated, the only direct refenerence to TFs in "GI Joe" was in the G2 launch several years later. When Devil's Due Publishing took the Joe license, references to the TFs were actively retconned out. (One could argue that this creates yet another alternate. But, it is best to let Joe fans deal with that question.)

Following "Time Wars", (and the presumed destruction of the Marvel UK future timline that O6 mentioned in the "stupid ideas thread"), the UK included shorter black and white strips that were frequently impossible to reconcile with the (still dominant) US comics. While there were some general similarities to the US comic, (and it may have fit better if Furman had more time and/or if the US comic had lasted a bit longer), too many prominent story elements were impossible to reconcile.

Two more prominent "future" timelines were added to the mix. The first effectively replaced the timeline that Death's Head originated from. It depicted a world where the Decepticons were again dominant in the early 21st Century. It included some pre-"Time Wars" elements, such as Unicron being trapped in the Matrix. But, it was clearly a new timeline resulting from the events of "Time Wars". Not long after, in the US comic, an alternate future where Unicron destroyed Cybertron in 2005 was introduced as a way to bring a Galvatron in to the US comic's then current setting of 1991.

Both books ended in 1991, flowing directly in to "Another Time and Place".

Over the years, there have been a number of follow-ups to the original comics.

"Generation 2" was the first. Furman ignored "Another Time and Place" when he picked up G2, and the two are pretty well impossible to reconcile. G2 itself splits off in at least 3 directions.

G2 was launched as part of a second cross-over with "GI Joe". However, after the initial cross-over, G2 and the Joe book ignored each other completely. In "Generation 2", Earth was sieged by 2 armies of belligerent alien robots. At least one city was completely destroyed and there was scattered destruction around the world. The "GI Joe" comic made no reference to this.

If we apply multiversal logic, there are two timelines assumed here. The first assumes that the TFs left earth shortly after the second cross-over and never came back. The second assumes that the TFs came back, as shown in "Generation 2". Finally, the UK G2 comics, begin similarly to the US, but quickly deviated before being cancelled, adding yet a third official variant of G2. (There is also the question of "Allignment". Despite being written by Furman, it is only dubiously official, and is best not considered as such.)

And, it does not stop there.

Fun Publications "Classics" series was assumed to follow up from US issue 80. It largely ignored the UK comics, "Another Time and Place" as well as G2. In fact, it was assumed to have somehow over-written the timeline of "Another Time and Place". The destruction of this timeline (shown in the BotCon 2012 comic) apparently restored the timeline of "Another Time and Place". (Yeah, it is as stupid as it sounds.)

And, IDW's current "ReGeneration 1" series ignores most of the above. Jhiaxus (and presumably the Cybertronian Empire) are referenced, but the events of G2 did not happen.


Dom
-would not mind the idea of a multiverse so much if it were not so often a way to reconcile bad writing and a plot-device for really bad "cosmically awesome" event stories.

[Shockwave]

What's "Another Time and Place"?

My take on this is way simpler: The UK run included all of the US run, thus, they are not two separate continuities so much as the US version just isn't the complete story. This is even easier when you look at this as just Marvel G1 and completely ignore anything from IDW, or G2. Although, I do typically regard the G2 US comic as the continuation of that, followed by Beast Wars and subsequently Beast Machines.

But, just looking only at Marvel G1 (and only G1) I wouldn't say the two comics are contrary.

[Onslaught Six]

There are some minor inconsistencies that make it impossible to wholesale read the US issues and then the UK issues--you have to actually read the UK issues as originally published, which would occasionally paper over things that were inconsistent.

The biggest of these is Goldbug. In the US, GI Joe kills Bumblebee in the GI Joe vs Transformers crossover, assuming he's a threat. They rebuild him later as Goldbug, when the Autobots become the Joe allies. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this. Some Cybertronian might have helped the Joes construct him, but I'm pretty sure it's almost all them.) Whereas in the UK, Death's Head kills Bumblebee and Wreck-Gar, who tagged along with Rodimus and co. from the future, rebuilds him into Goldbug.

I think a few inconsistencies arise with Skids as well. Skids was trapped in Limbo or the Negative Zone or whatever you want to call it in the UK comics, but this never happened in the US, so he continued to occasionally show up. (This isn't even a forgotten plot thread, because Powermaster Prime shows up in Limbo later during Time Wars, I think, and he sees Skids being eternally eaten alive by limbomonsters.)

Even if we ignore Earthforce (and the related B&W backup strips), the UK comics cannot wholesale take place in the US continuity because of stuff like this.

Aside: "Another Time And Place" was a text story that took place after US #80. I think it showed up in an annual somewhere or something. I don't remember the details.

[Tigermegatron]

All those UK TF G-1 comics/TPB's,I could the golden age of TF comics stories. IDW TF comics just isn't in the same awesome league of TF comic story telling & character portral that those UK TF G-1 comics were.

[Dominic]

What's "Another Time and Place"?

"Another Time and Place" was the last G1 story published in the UK. It was, as O6 mentions, a text story in the last annual. It has been scanned and posted on-line so many times that I would be suprised if you could not find it for free someplace. (My own copy is a cherished Xerox from 15+ years ago, sent to be by the Hartmans.)

The framing sequence for the story is set a significant time in the future. (I forget the exact time-table, or even if one is given.) The main story is set a few months after issue US issue 80. Grimlock stumbles across a plot by Bludgeon to raise Megatron using Nucleon. Battle ensues. Most of the Decepticons are soundly defeated. It is implied that most, if not all, of the Action Masters who have lost the ability to transform will have the option to regain the ability to transform. It is more or less impossible to reconcile with G2 or any other follow-up to the original US comics. Jhiaxus and the Empire are alluded to in the future sequences. It is far from a perfect story. But, it was the first, (and when it was first published, assumed to be the only), epilogue to the original series.

I think a few inconsistencies arise with Skids as well. Skids was trapped in Limbo or the Negative Zone or whatever you want to call it in the UK comics, but this never happened in the US, so he continued to occasionally show up. (This isn't even a forgotten plot thread, because Powermaster Prime shows up in Limbo later during Time Wars, I think, and he sees Skids being eternally eaten alive by limbomonsters.)

Sort of. This was one of several plot-points that the UK comics papered over either by retouching art of dialogue in various panels. A UK reader would be hard-pressed to spot such changes, as the UK artists and letterers generally made their work blend in these cases. I actually read several of the issues in question, (having found a trove of UK comics at one point back in '98), and did not catch the changes to the US pages the first time through. (Unless you were looking, and knew what to look for, they were hard to spot.) Of course, the necessity for the changes show that the two books did not sync up.

All those UK TF G-1 comics/TPB's,I could the golden age of TF comics stories. IDW TF comics just isn't in the same awesome league of TF comic story telling & character portral that those UK TF G-1 comics were.

Yeah, give me the brilliant and always coherent art of the first four issues of the US comic. And, there is no matching the brilliant writing of "Afterdeath", "Carwash of Doom" and other highlights of the middle run of the US comic. And, I know that my comics collection is enriched with reprints of "Earth Force" stories like "The House that Wheeljack Built". Give me that over Barber's RiD or opening of Costa's run, "Police Action", "Ironhide" or any number of "Spotlights". And, hey, we know how carefully written, drawn and edited all of those comics were, because they fit together so well and there were no glaring mistakes or anything.

Joking aside, Marvel's TF run lasted for nearly 7 years. Like any extended run of comics, it had high and (very) low points.



Dom
-needs to get started on those UK compilations.....

[Dominic]

Random thought, (likely resulting from me having just read some 80s Marvel):

About a year and a half back, we figured out that 1 year of 616 Marvel time worked out to about 3 or 4 years of real time. This was not a perfect equation. But, it worked well enough, had some precedent and (just barely) worked with the origin of the Avengers as shown during the "Heroic Age" relaunch. Of course, this still leaves open the question of where the "zero point" (where 616 and out real time meet) is. But, that is a discussion for another thread.

In contrast, Marvel's "Transformers" comics took place more or less in real time as evidenced by the Christmas stories in the UK and by specific dates being given towards the beginning and end of the US run.


And, this arguably creates a contradiction with the BotCon 2012 comics. (No, seriously.)

(late edit: revised math and points of reference added)

For the purpose of which-ever cross-over worlds that a given G1 series was set on, (and we could assume there are at least 2 based on the US comics alone), there are some relative time references between TF and Marvel. (For the purpose of this posting, we will discount Circuit Breaker's appearance in "Secret Wars II".) The early issues of TF specify that Spider-Man was still wearing the alien costume and the Savage Land had not yet been destroyed during the first year or so worth of "Transformers" in '84/'85. The Avengers, SHIELD and the X-Men are all shown, or at least implied.

Following this logic, "Transformers" as published by Marvel (US or UK) would have effectively been set in the future of "616 Marvel" (or whatever we call the "similar to 616 Marvel aside from the TFs" world).

The original series would have ended right around "Civil War".

(These times are estimates. But, you get the idea.)

Assuming that 1984 is the "zero point", (where real-time and page time meet), Marvel's TF run (set roughly in real time) and 616 Marvel time (page time) would intersect roughly as follows:

1984: Autobots and Decepticons awaken. Circuit Breaker begins quest for revenge against all robots. Blackrock allies with Autobots. Marvel heroes engaged in "Secret War" on Beyonder's battle world. Savage Land destroyed. Tony Stark retakes Iron Man identity from Jim Rhodes, defeats Obidia "Iron Monger" Stane and starts the "Armor Wars". Spider-Man acquires and disposes of the alien costume. Kraven the Hunter Commits Suicide. Secret Wars II and death of the Beyonder.

1985: Autobots/Decepticon war escalates. Year of the Scourge (arguably a "real time" year). DareDevil is "Born Again". John Walker become Captain America and later USAgent. Original X-Men form X-Factor. Fall of the Mutants. Inferno. Byrne's run on "West Coast Avengers" opens with the Vision destroyed. Scarlett Witch bears children through force of delusion and has psychotic breakdown in part due to Immortus' scheming.

1986: Optimus Prime destroyed. Megatron lost. Grimlock and Ratbat take leadership roles. RAAT is formed. "Carwash of Doom". Revlon era Marvel: Executioner's Song, x-teams significantly re-organized. Peter David run on Hulk is in full swing. Various "Crossing" storylines in "Avengers". Ben Reilly returns. Los Angeles riots (as depicted in "Nomad") occur. (And, that is only one reason why including real events in comics is problematic.) Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War and Infinity Crusade. Galactic Storm, destructiion of the Kree Empire. "Sabertooth: Deathhunt" happens, and is even more awesome.... West Coast Avengers disband and re-unite as Force Works. Rhodes becomes War Machine.

1987: Fortress Maximus's contingent arrives on Earth. Spike merges with Maximus. Professor X has a mental breakdown, contributing to the manifestation of Onslaught. Many of Earth's heroes sent to an alternate world. Rise of Zemo's first team of Thunderbolts. Earth's heroes return from alternate Earth.

1988: Optimus Prime returns as a Power Master. Starscream acquires the Underbase. Autobots engage in holding actions on Earth. Morrison's "X-Men" run, Xorn et al. Busiek's and John's "Avengers" run. Norman Osborn's children with Gwen Stacy revealed. Spider-Man is revealed as a spider-avatar....oh my....

1989: Furman's run begins. Megatron returns. Ratchet lost. Grimlock, Bumblebee, Jazz and Starscream return. Bendis begins on "Avengers", "Disassembeld". Tony Stark injecte with "Extremis" tech. Sentry returns. Superhuman "Civil War". Steve Rogers seemingly killed.

1990: Matrix Quest begins as Unicron approaches. Formation of the Neo Knights. "Civil War" ends. (Arguable, "Civil War" was published in real time, which is problematic on this listing.) Skrull Secret Invasion revealed. Normal Osborn Osborn's Dark Reign begins and ends with the Seige of Asgard. Steve Rogers returns. Death of the Sentry. (The Sentry's death could arguably be used to reconcile some of the problems inherent with setting Marvel to externally real time.) Heroic Age begins on Earth.

1991: Transformers and Neo Knights leave Earth to battle Unicron. Grimlock returns with nucleon, creating Action Masters. Ark (re)crashes on Earth, Galvatron is defeated by Fortress Maximus. Decepticon army broken on Klo. Avengers and X-Men battle over Phoenix force. Kaine takes mantle of new Scarlet Spider. ???????????


Alternatively, there is a case of a year of (Marvel) page time equalling ~2.5 years of real time. But, this only makes things more complicated and more non-sensical.

Now, why is this problematic relative to the 2012 issue of "Time Lines"?

Spider-Man arguably makes a cameo alongside Sue Storm. Granted, they are not named as such. And, they could easily be other characters, either successors or just other characters wearing similar costumes. But, it is something worth nothing. Assuming that Spider-Man was 25 in 1984, he would be 52 in "Time Lines" Sue Storm would likely be approaching 60 at the time of the 2012 issue of "Time LInes".

By the same token, in "ReGeneration 1", Megatron's return is described as having happened in 1994 (real time), meaning that is has not yet happened in Marvel time.

(late edit: added GI Joe note):
Incorporating "GI Joe" as published, and still using 1984 as the zero-point would, would reuire moving 8 years of Marvel forward. Marvel comics from the late 70s would be assumed to happen in the early 80s. Similarly, there would also be another 4 years of real time to incorporate, taking us well beyond what has been depicted in "Marvel Time" thus far. (By the "Marvel Time" standard, it will be well after 2020 before Marvel catches up to the end of the original "GI Joe" series.) And, that is not even addressing how to reconcile G2 with anything resembling 616 Marvel.




(late edit: added IDW cross-over thoughts.):

Using 2006, (the date of IDW's crossover with Marvel) as the zero point, but keeping the 4 year rule, we get:

2006: Decepticon "Infiltration" effort fosters discord in Eastern Europe. Avengers intervene. "Civil War" starts and ends. Skrull infiltration revealed. Osborn's reign begins.

2007:
Autobots and Decepticons continue to break from "Infiltration" protocols. Sunstreaker captured by humans. Headmaster experiments. Grimlock awakens and frees Dinobots. Osborn's reign ends with the Seige of Asgard. Sentry dies. Heroic Age begins. Avengers and X-Men clash.

2008: Decepticon make "big push", nearly defeating Autobots Galaxy Wide. Decepticons maraud across Earth. Megatron narrowly defeated. Earth's champions nowhere to be found????



Dom
-not sure where all of this came from, but has not been feeling 100% the last few days.

[Dominic]

-bump (revised math and added a few items).

[Onslaught Six]

I actually re-read it now...and wow, that is just nuts to think about.

This is why, largely, characters like the original Avengers should have long-since retired or passed their superhero identities on to other characters. (Some guys, like Thor or Wolverine for example, would have excuses for why they would still be around. Even, arguably, Captain America. But Tony Stark should be pushing 70 by now.)