crazy customizing and creativity questions and discussion

[Gustavo]

Repurposing works in a pinch, and when the toy you're using doesn't have very much attachment to yourself.

This smells an awful, (and I do mean "awful"), lot like fan fic.

What's wrong with fanfic? There are all types of stories that could be told in the Transformers multiverse that just weren't. Some of those stories might be better told somewhere other than the Transformers multiverse, but it's a good way to begin exploring aspects of Transformers that aren't really well explored in the official fiction.

Granted, most fanfic sucks, but most everything sucks. And there is a lot of fanfic that is better than the official fiction. I'd take "Best First" over the Energon cartoon any day of the week.

I blame Fun Publications, and to a less degree Hasbro, for making this kind of half-assery okay. This year's Metal Hawk and Overlord look like the sort of custom jobs that I would expect from a lazy, (or maybe just young), customizer. The repurposing is just lazy, and made even worse when it is for crap like "Shattered Glass". The official sources really should not be pulling that kind of shit. (And, why the fandom entertains it, I will never understand.)

If a toy is designed as a deliberate homage to another character -- for example, Energon Galvatron is pretty clearly designed to be as close to G1 Galvatron as possible, without being tied to the original too tightly -- there's the chance that if the official fiction doesn't establish the character well, the homaged character dominates.

I'm not even sure that is repurposing. They toy was designed with two purposes, and was a complete failure at it's primary one. It's only slightly sketchier than using Yellowbox Bludgeon as G1 Bludgeon, despite Yellowbox being ostensibly part of the Movie lines.

[Onslaught Six]

Bludgeon was actually full-fledged ROTF, not Yellowbox. If he were Yellowbox, he might be able to occupy that strange maybe-movie-but-maybe-Classics space that guys like Lugnut and Terradive occupy. (Guys like Jazz and Tracks, on the other hand, are clearly Classics toys in Yellowbox packaging to retailers would take them.)

Dom just hates fanfic because most of it sucks, and people who tend to write it tend to not be talented enough to write other things. 86 and I primarily wrote fanfic because it was way easier to write about characters in an already established setting than to create one wholesale. (One could say that any fictional work that takes place in a reasonable realistic world is easily "real world" fanfiction. After all, you're just taking an established setting and putting new characters and events into it!)

Also, because we liked Transformers.

Some of my music could very reasonably be called works of fanfiction. My new EP is basically John Carpenter fanfiction! Termina had an Evangelion and Majora's Mask and Johnny Mnemonic song on it.

Here's another thing, Dom--sometimes "repurposing" a figure isn't necessarily laziness. For a long time, I didn't have a complete set of 25th O13 Joes. I was missing Grunt, because Grunt was in a prohibitively expensive three-pack. (I never found it in stores, and Grunt rarely sold for less than $20 alone or $30 with the other figures.) I did, however, have the O13-style Duke figure who came in a comic two-pack with Red Star. For a long time, this was my default Grunt, simply because I had no other Grunt to use. I could've done a head swap, but I never did because I was okay with using the Duke head, since my default Duke was the Resolute figure, who had an entirely different head.

As for other stuff--your Road Rage comparison is still hilariously pedantic. Road Rage's blue parts were the same kind of dark blue-purple plastic that most G1 Optimus Primes had in their legs, so it could easily be interpreted that he should have purple parts there. Furthermore, there's plenty of Classics toys that have details that just plain don't match up, but we all let those go. (Skywarp, for example, has a purple that's way too pink. It should be more of a cool blue-purple, the way the G1 toy is.) Why is Road Rage held under extra scrutiny?

The fact is, at the end of the day, pretty much the only person who really sees your collection is you, so you do what makes you happy. I don't call any other fan "lazy" for the simple fact that a lot of fans *don't* have painting skills, and even those that do will never make something that's the exact Hasbro quality. (I have seen many fans gush over customs that I see and go, "Ew, that's gross." Most of the time, paint on customs is way too glossy and fake-looking.) So instead, they substitute.

Hell, one could even argue that, in cases where toys are "screen inaccurate," (something I have never, ever really cared about), you're "repurposing" the toy as the cartoon character. Where's the line end?

[Dominic]

What's wrong with fanfic?

Oh no.....

Maybe we need another thread for this.

Fanfic is generally a waste of time. When a franchise is vital and stuff is actually coming out of it, why bother with fanfic? At the moment, TF has a cartoon and 3 ongoing comics. That is not counting volumes of old comics (from multiple publishers) and hours of old TF shows spanning 25+ years. (And, do not forget all of the other content out there, past and present, domestic and foreign.)

Fanfic distracts from the legitimate content and balkanizes the fandom. It makes points of reference in the hobby even more insular and backward looking than they are to begin with, even when people are not citing fanfic as being equal to or more important than official content.


When a franchise is dead, such as TF in the early 90s or "Star Trek" for much of the 60s and 70s, fanfic becomes a haven for the most regressive fans and delivers on some of the worst stereotypes about fandoms, all while making the fandoms both more insular and more balkanized.

And there is a lot of fanfic that is better than the official fiction. I'd take "Best First" over the Energon cartoon any day of the week.

I am not going to argue numbers here. If nothing else, I am not willing to read/research enough fanfic to come up with a credible estimate of how much of it is is good and how it compares to legitimate content.

Yes, I have seen good fanfic. There is a fan-produced G2 manga that is so good that many people honestly think that it is official. (I had a copy of it years ago, and thought that I had an unofficial fan translation of official content.) But, I will always take official content over fanfic. If the hobby is not delivering worth-while product on its own (through Hasbro or a licensor), then why should anybody bother to stay in for the long term?

-- there's the chance that if the official fiction doesn't establish the character well, the homaged character dominates.

Packaging and episode/comic appearances take precedence over fanfic. It does not matter if fans like the official context or not. It does not matter if the official context is crap. Official uber fanfic. I hate "Shattered Glass". I am personally offended that somebody gets to claim professional writing/editing credit for "Shattered Glass" and most everything else to come out of Fun Publications. But, it is official and I am not going to fanfic it away. That red Tracks figure I have? It is a toy of "Shattered Glass" Tracks. I might, if I were crazy enough to use such an expensive toy for custom fodder, modify it to be Road Rage or some other red car guy. But, just re-purposing the toy would be lazy.

I'm not even sure that is repurposing. They toy was designed with two purposes, and was a complete failure at it's primary one. It's only slightly sketchier than using Yellowbox Bludgeon as G1 Bludgeon, despite Yellowbox being ostensibly part of the Movie lines.

As pretty as red Tracks is, it does fail at referencing the old Diaclone/MB tracks. This would be less bothersome if it was not billed as a reference to that figure and if early photos did not show the purple bits to be blue. But, it was sold as SG Tracks. And, the colouring of the faction sigil is consistent with it being an SG toy, (purple sigils for Autobots, red sigils for Decepticons).

The yellow package line is a case study in lazy branding by Hasbro. In some cases, it is impossible to tell where a given character fits in. Bludgeon is a pretty open and shut case, as the character notes place him firmly in context with the Bayformers. On the other hand, Sea Spray's character notes are not terribly helpful, and the toy's design is ambiguous enough to make it difficult to place the character. (IDW did use that vehicle mode in the comics, which arguable pushed it away from Bayformer.) Sea Spray's recolour, Deep Dive, was sold in a case with Lugnut, and references Crankstart. Lugnut shows up in the G1-esque "Reveal the Shield" pack-in comic (which had art that could be charitably described as "ill-defined"), while Crankstart was clearly a Bayformer. And, one of Crankstart's case mates is of course the infamously rare RTS Windcharger, a figure clearly moulded to be Neo-G1.

I could've done a head swap, but I never did because I was okay with using the Duke head,

And, that would hve been an easy custom job. (As an aside, was that 3-pack particularly rare or expensive? I recall being tempted to army-build and soak up custom fodder using them.)

Road Rage's blue parts were the same kind of dark blue-purple plastic that most G1 Optimus Primes had in their legs, so it could easily be interpreted that he should have purple parts there.

I have read descriptions of it being black and/or blue. Some even describe a running production change in the Diaclone/MB figures. This confusion may be caused by differences in people cameras, scanners, monitors or even the sensitivity of their eyes to colour. I have not read about purple bits on the original though. (I can probably check Lewis' Road Rage figure at some point. I do not believe that he has a red Tracks from the 80s though.)

Either way the faction sigils do not lie.

for the simple fact that a lot of fans *don't* have painting skills, and even those that do will never make something that's the exact Hasbro quality.

I did say "lazy and untalented".

I cannot paint to Hasbro spec. But, dammit, I put in more effort than "I want it to be this way so I say it is".

Hell, one could even argue that, in cases where toys are "screen inaccurate," (something I have never, ever really cared about), you're "repurposing" the toy as the cartoon character. Where's the line end?

-late edit: I had to get up and move to a different computer before finishing this post.

Something about being pedantic?

The toys as sold are generally meant to represent the same characters that appear on screen/page. Some cases, (such as TFU Prowl), are closer than others, (such as any use of the CHUG moulded Bumblebee). But, they are idiomatically the same. There is also the fact that official sources have more grounding to repurpose than fans do, even if the re-purposing is lazy and capricious (as is the case with Fun Publications).

When fans re-purpose, they are just saying "I do not have a toy of a given character, but I am going to say that I do and that is what matters because it is about me", which gets back to that insularity that I was talking about at the top of this post.


Dom
-hates to say anything nice about SG, anything at all, but damn Tracks is pretty....

[Shockwave]

What's wrong with fanfic?

*slow motion reach/jump* NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Dom, the point of fanfic is for people that are fans of characters/franchises in which the characters haven't been effectively used/used in ways that differ from other original context. For example, I've often wanted the Thundercracker story that we got in the ongoing, but back in the days of G1, I would have had to write that story myself. So there would be legitimate reason (back then) to write fanfic based on information in the character tech specs rather than the way they were essentially bastardized on the cartoon. Now, the next question you usually ask at this point is "why not create something new then?" For several reasons. 1: That doesn't give us the "Transformers" story that we're wanting and 2: It's really hard to come up with new stuff. I have several books that I'm writing that haven't been finished yet simply because I can't come up with names. However, if I were to set these stories in the TF universe then I don't have that problem, the characters and settings are already established. Half the work is done right there. (For the record, none of the stories I'm writing would really work in a TF setting, but the point still stands) 3: The created existing fiction often inspires people to write new stories illustrating different ideas than simply "robots fight over mcguffin". Some truly good stuff could come out of that. It usually doesn't, but I'll get to why that happens in a moment.

At least, that's what's supposed to happen with fanfic. The problem where that breaks down and why it's always so terrible is because fans get self indulgent to the point of ridiculousness. Like saying things like "character x's tech spec doesn't mention gender so now they're female" or other similar such nonsense. The underlying ideas wind up falling by the wayside in favor of the self indulgent parts of the fanfic which is why it usually sucks. And I would agree that under no circumstances should fanfic be considered official. That's the worst kind of self indulgence right there.

As for repurposing... I can see doing under it certain circumstances. Like if you have multiple copies of a figure and want to consider one the original character and the other someone else, fine. Especially if the repurposed character has toys that are either 1: Probihibitively unavailable (as mentioned before) or 2: Don't exist at all. But, at the very least if there is a change in sigils, one should at least pony up for some damned reprolabels (I seem to recall Dom "customizing" Fracture with such a sticker). I do think it's silly to be stickler for details as character models change so frequently in the franchise anyway. Dom, if you want the SG Tracks to be your Roadrage, then throw some labels on it and call it good. A minor color difference between purple vs. black is a rather subtle difference, especially the existing differences between the original toy and the RTS Tracks anyway that one more minor difference isn't going to matter.

Shockwave
-Dom, just throw some reprolabels on your SG Tracks and call it Roadrage. Done.

[Dominic]

For example, I've often wanted the Thundercracker story that we got in the ongoing, but back in the days of G1, I would have had to write that story myself.

I actually *did* write that story not quite 15 years ago. (No, I no longer have it.)

Quick summary: Post G2. Thundercracker and Skywarp are training surviving Ethosians in air-defense. Both are still Decepticons, but are working as part of the Autobot/Decepticon Alliance. While taking a break from Skywarp's antic, Thundercracker is approached by a newly religious Star Scream. Starscream has formed his own Matrix themed faction, inluding a number of Cybertronian storm troopers, and wants Thundercracker to join. (The idea here is that Thundercracker's tech specs say that he needs something to believe in.) Thundercracker refuses. Starscream lets him go. After filing a report about the incident, Thundercracker removes all faction sigils from himself.

I think that it was maybe 4 or 5 pages.

But, I am not defending that.

I was wrong.

I should not have written that story. I could have spent that time...doing anything else. And really, all I did was write about one of my favourite G1 characters in an unused setting. Wholly self-indulgent, even without me pushing that idea every time that Thundercracker comes up in a conversation.

If the hobby is not delivering the goods, why bother with it? If that Thundercracker story, or the hopes of someday getting that Thundercracker story, are a huge part of the hobby for somebody, they really need to stop and think about the hobby and probably other things as well.

The created existing fiction often inspires people to write new stories illustrating different ideas than simply "robots fight over mcguffin".

And, again, if the official sources are not producing content that is up to snuff, why the hell am I bothering with the hobby? It is a hobby. It is not compulsory.

Putting aside the "I could do something better with my time" arguement, there are also plenty of other options for entertainment. There are novels/comics/movies/whatever that deal in high concepts. There are other forms of entertainment/recreation that do not involve reading at all. Others are complimented by reading. (For example, I could go get some serious curry, and then use the "sitting time" later to read. )

And, if I am going to write my own thing, then I damned well want it to be my own. Just like I should not write about food, I should go eat some food.

But, at the very least if there is a change in sigils, one should at least pony up for some damned reprolabels (I seem to recall Dom "customizing" Fracture with such a sticker).

And, that became a running joke. I always prefaced the haul posting with something like "because I am incredibly lazy". In some cases, (SG Ravage to Glit is an example of this), a sticker is enough to qualify as a legitimate custom job.

And, again, if there is legitimate precedence for the re-purposing, then it is okay. G1 Scourge/Sweeps and the Insecticons come to mind here. But, there may be other examples. I suppose Optimus's clone from "A Prime Problem" or duplicates of any of the Decepticons from "More than Meets the Eye" would also be examples here.

If a character looks like a piece of rice and commands troops that look like pieces of rice, then it is okay to use a piece of rice to represent either. And, then, you can use that rice as part of a meal, preferably one invovling curry.

The idea is that if multiple characters are using a given character model (and that model is represented by a given toy), then the repurposing is legitimate. (I will say that Fun Publication's re-purposing is somewhat de-legitimized by the fact it is so capricious and self-serving. But, I am not going to pretend that there is no legitimate reason to call movie Armourhide "SG Huffer".)

Dom, if you want the SG Tracks to be your Roadrage, then throw some labels on it and call it good.

Ah, but the SG Autobot sigil is such a pretty shade of purple.... It looks how curry tastes...

Even if red Diaclone/MB Tracks or Roadrage have purple (and I do not feel like doing more research on that subject right now), the purple on SG tracks would look too bright. (The fact that there is confustion between black and blue should give you an idea how dark the colour, whatever it may be, is.)

Dom
-very hungry....

[Gustavo]

I hate "Shattered Glass". I am personally offended that somebody gets to claim professional writing/editing credit for "Shattered Glass" and most everything else to come out of Fun Publications.

Transformers has a multiverse -- a multiverse defined so loosely in Transformers: The Ultimate Guide (an official product), that it effectively includes every continuity everywhere, including non-Transformers continuities. With an infinite number of possibility universes to focus on, why bother with Shattered Glass? It's not even worth hating.

The yellow package line is a case study in lazy branding by Hasbro. In some cases, it is impossible to tell where a given character fits in. Bludgeon is a pretty open and shut case, as the character notes place him firmly in context with the Bayformers. On the other hand, Sea Spray's character notes are not terribly helpful, and the toy's design is ambiguous enough to make it difficult to place the character. (IDW did use that vehicle mode in the comics, which arguable pushed it away from Bayformer.) Sea Spray's recolour, Deep Dive, was sold in a case with Lugnut, and references Crankstart. Lugnut shows up in the G1-esque "Reveal the Shield" pack-in comic (which had art that could be charitably described as "ill-defined"), while Crankstart was clearly a Bayformer. And, one of Crankstart's case mates is of course the infamously rare RTS Windcharger, a figure clearly moulded to be Neo-G1.

Also, the Wal-Mart Movie Exclusives Big Daddy, Breakaway and Jolt (and a few others), who were designed to be Classics/Universe toys, and then switched at the last minute because the Movie marketing was dominant at the time. Hasbro repurposed the toys shortly before packaging and shipping them. Do you go by the intent of the toy designers (Classics/G1), or the brand information on the packaging (Movieverse), or the information in the tech specs (ambiguous for some, if I recall correctly)? They have appeared after the fact in various Movieverse comics, but with character models that don't resemble the toy at all.

The Yellowbox and RTS lines just muddied it further, mixing characters that should have been under different continuities together under the same brand, making references to each other in tech specs, and generally paying no attention to continuity.

If Hasbro doesn't care about what continuity these toys are in, why should I?

Either way the faction sigils do not lie.

Armada Airazor begs to differ.

[Shockwave]

Ha crap, I forgot about the "get over it, move on" argument. Yes, there are certainly other things I could enjoy if a property is not producing fiction that I like or none at all, but those other things are not the property that I was enjoying before. That's a bit like saying "well, McDonald's isn't making cheeseburgers anymore so I'll eat curry instead." Bullshit. Curry is not cheeseburger and the two are not really comparable. Therefore, if McDonald's quits making cheeseburgers and I wanna make my own, you can be damned sure I'll make my own. And it's not even a matter of quality of what was produced officially. I like a lot of the Marvel G1 stories. I also would like to have seen some of those stories expanded so then I would have to write my own. Sure, I could go watch Star Trek, or Star Wars but Star Trek and Star Wars are not Transformers. Sometimes you wanna get your fix for a particular thing you like and other stuff just ain't gonna cut it. And if the franchise in question isn't producing anything new, or is of too low quality then it's up to you to produce your own stuff if you wanna enjoy it. And really, a line of toys allows that through playing with the toys anyway. I basically made fanfic when I used my toys for comics. I'm not saying it's good, I did think it was funny, but that was mostly for the enjoyment of myself and my friends.

Really, you're being too picky with Roadrage. It's a red recolor of Tracks, the fact that there's a debate on the color of the other parts renders the issue moot. At least if you just throw stickers on it they can be removed lated in favor of it's original look.

[Shockwave]

I hate "Shattered Glass". I am personally offended that somebody gets to claim professional writing/editing credit for "Shattered Glass" and most everything else to come out of Fun Publications.

Transformers has a multiverse -- a multiverse defined so loosely in Transformers: The Ultimate Guide (an official product), that it effectively includes every continuity everywhere, including non-Transformers continuities. With an infinite number of possibility universes to focus on, why bother with Shattered Glass? It's not even worth hating.

The yellow package line is a case study in lazy branding by Hasbro. In some cases, it is impossible to tell where a given character fits in. Bludgeon is a pretty open and shut case, as the character notes place him firmly in context with the Bayformers. On the other hand, Sea Spray's character notes are not terribly helpful, and the toy's design is ambiguous enough to make it difficult to place the character. (IDW did use that vehicle mode in the comics, which arguable pushed it away from Bayformer.) Sea Spray's recolour, Deep Dive, was sold in a case with Lugnut, and references Crankstart. Lugnut shows up in the G1-esque "Reveal the Shield" pack-in comic (which had art that could be charitably described as "ill-defined"), while Crankstart was clearly a Bayformer. And, one of Crankstart's case mates is of course the infamously rare RTS Windcharger, a figure clearly moulded to be Neo-G1.

Also, the Wal-Mart Movie Exclusives Big Daddy, Breakaway and Jolt (and a few others), who were designed to be Classics/Universe toys, and then switched at the last minute because the Movie marketing was dominant at the time. Hasbro repurposed the toys shortly before packaging and shipping them. Do you go by the intent of the toy designers (Classics/G1), or the brand information on the packaging (Movieverse), or the information in the tech specs (ambiguous for some, if I recall correctly)? They have appeared after the fact in various Movieverse comics, but with character models that don't resemble the toy at all.

The Yellowbox and RTS lines just muddied it further, mixing characters that should have been under different continuities together under the same brand, making references to each other in tech specs, and generally paying no attention to continuity.

If Hasbro doesn't care about what continuity these toys are in, why should I?

Either way the faction sigils do not lie.

Armada Airazor begs to differ.

And these are really good points too. Gustavo, you had no idea the can of worms you were opening did you?

[Dominic]

Transformers has a multiverse -- a multiverse defined so loosely in Transformers: The Ultimate Guide (an official product), that it effectively includes every continuity everywhere, including non-Transformers continuities. With an infinite number of possibility universes to focus on, why bother with Shattered Glass? It's not even worth hating.

In context, "Shattered Glass" is so closely connected to the old Marvel stuff that the stink kind of rubs off on to the old Marvel stuff. (This is similar to how I cannot look at any of DC's Shazam/Marvel Family characters without thinking about "Countdown".)

And, given that most of the use/maintenance of the TF multiverse is by Fun Publications, just the idea of a multiverse in TF has bad associations.

But, what really bothers me about SG is just how bad it is. It is a regressive and cliched concept that is handled in a regressive way. It is a bad paint by numbers story, but now it has "Transformers" in it. The fact that anybody is getting professional credit for this offends me.

Also, the Wal-Mart Movie Exclusives Big Daddy, Breakaway and Jolt (and a few others), who were designed to be Classics/Universe toys, and then switched at the last minute because the Movie marketing was dominant at the time. Hasbro repurposed the toys shortly before packaging and shipping them.

That was more of a business decision than a creative decision. But, it was also done at an official level before the toys were shipped.

If Hasbro doesn't care about what continuity these toys are in, why should I?

If Hasbro is sloppy about it, then they are sloppy about it. The answer is "Hasbro was sloppy and X is now Y". The answer is not "in my personal fanfic.....", especially when it contradicts stuff that Hasbro has written.

If Hasbro still ran a Q and A, I would ask how many "back of the box" continuities they assume.

That's a bit like saying "well, McDonald's isn't making cheeseburgers anymore so I'll eat curry instead

The analogy falls aparty here. (I was really hungy yesterday, hence my obsession with curry and such.) In this case, it would be like "I am making *McDonalds* burgers better than McDonalds".

Sure, I could go watch Star Trek, or Star Wars but Star Trek and Star Wars are not Transformers. Sometimes you wanna get your fix for a particular thing you like and other stuff just ain't gonna cut it. And if the franchise in question isn't producing anything new, or is of too low quality then it's up to you to produce your own stuff if you wanna enjoy it.

It depends why I like what I like. I have long since moved past liking a given property for the sake of like a given property. Right now, as far as TFs, I am in for the comics. If the comics stop or go bad, then I am out. Similarly, the only "GI Joe" related book that I am reading is IDW's "Cobra". I am barely in the hobby at all. Arguably, I am not even a Joe fan any more, and am reading "Cobra" as an outgrowth of being a comics fan.

If TF stops delivering the goods, I am not going to start writing fanfic for the sake of keeping myself interested in the TF property. I am going to move on to the another property or wholly different hobby. (Mind you, I have a few months worth of content in those UK reprint volumes. But, that would eventually run out.)

Really, you're being too picky with Roadrage. It's a red recolor of Tracks, the fact that there's a debate on the color of the other parts renders the issue moot. At least if you just throw stickers on it they can be removed lated in favor of it's original look.

eHobby is also going with the "SG Tracks can also be Roadrage", which takes the half-assery to a new depth. Yes, it is official, and I am not going to argue it. But, man....is it ever distasteful. (And, the purple really looks wrong for RoadRage, even if we assume that the black is actually purple.)

-late edit:

Armada Airazor begs to differ.

Ah, yes. That was a typo. Nobody even seems to know how it got there. Granted, when you consider what goes in to moulding a toy, it is a pretty big typo. But, it is a typo all the same. I would not count that particular sigil any more than I would count some of Marvel's more odd colouring choices. (For example in one issue of the comics, they coloured Dead-End as being yellow.)



Dom
-remembers shamefully following up that Thundercracker story with a wholly self-indulgent romp....

[Onslaught Six]

Here's a legit MB Red Tracks:
http://tfsource.com/blog/wp-content/upl ... gin003.jpg

And here's a G1 Prime:
http://www.goldoptimusprime.com/images/ ... -prime.jpg

The blue is that same weird purply dark blue colour. There's precedent.