We've got Hall of Fame voting going on up there

[Ursus mellifera]

Had a post, realized it was in a thread that had become about the Gathering, immediately regretted it.

So, nevermind.

Is this one of those topics that instantly climbs aboard the bullet train to futility?

[Gomess]

Fortunately we're a small enough board that the worst our arguments ever become is peaceful disagreements. I think the last "flame war" we had was when some AllSpark posters came over for some poll and everyone started arguing about Go-Bots.

[Shockwave]

My whole problem with the BW comic basically boils down to we didn't get new stories with the old characters that we liked and cared about. Instead, we just got all new story with all new characters that we don't know and didn't give a shit about. I would have liked to have seen new characters introduced, but not at the expense of the old ones. And that's what happened.

Shockwave
-And this is why the BW comic sits at the back of my collection "Gathering" dust.

[Ursus mellifera]

-And this is why the BW comic sits at the back of my collection "Gathering" dust.

*rimshot*

[Sparky Prime]

My whole problem with the BW comic basically boils down to we didn't get new stories with the old characters that we liked and cared about.

I can see preferring if they'd done a different story instead, but that's not actually a problem with the comic we got itself. That's just personal preference.

I'm somewhat curious... Dreamwave's comic from what little we know would have been a lot like "The Gathering" except set after the Maximals left with Megatron, and appears that the Maximals may have even come back to Earth after Megatron had broken free. What would you have thought about that?

[Shockwave]

For me it's about the characters. I want knew stories with the same characters and some new ones added. That's not what we got with Gathering. If the DW series had resulted in that then great, I probably would have enjoyed it.

[Gomess]

New BW story set on modern Earth, like the toy storyline. Classic BW characters, new- but very familiar- context. And of course, being based more on the toys, bringing in non-show characters would be a cinch, but they'd also be PART of the classic cast. I, for one, would very much like to see an all-bug sub-group led by Manterror and/or Jetstorm, wherein Jetstorm in particular uses his charisma (tech spec mentions his "awesome appearance") to motivate the insecure Waspinator to do badass stuff, and put HIMSELF back together every time.

And no bloody Tripredacus Council. I can't stand that Babble-On 5 "srs sci-fi" cliché. It's about a diverse group of Transformer characters, on Earth, disguised as animals, having fights and adventures. TEH END. Uh.. I guess it'd have to be initially set in Africa, considering most of the species. Not a bloody zoo, though. -_-

...Man, never thought I'd get even vaguely acerbic about BW, I never gave a toss about it before the powers that be let it crumble in favour of yet more G1 remakes. I'm surprised anyone even remembers it basically saved the franchise, since as far as the public eye's concerned it's been buried. On reflection, I think BW was possibly the most revolutionary TF series.

Gom
-note that I do not mind Babylon 5 at all, but I do mind sci-fi clichés.

[Onslaught Six]

I want to step in and disagree with this. The 15th anniversary is a perfect time to restart something differently. "Hey, remember that thing you loved 15 years ago? We're restarting it in a new, awesome way!"

Yeah, and I'm sure some fans would have called that a slap in the face for 'ignoring' the original continuity.

Those same fans are insular whiners who are the same kind of people who will write horrible fanfiction where they (the human writer) turn into a Predacon and romance Depth Charge. (Yes, I am making a very specific reference here.)

I remember seeing quite a few people comment about having never seen LioConvoy before, so that made them aware of the Japanese Beast Wars shows for the first time.

This is part of what pisses me off! Those frickin' "fans" were apparently unaware of an entire two series' worth of Things that take place in their universe--and it's been out there for a decade and a half!

I just feel like if you actually do like something, then you should want to see every aspect of it--instead of focusing on the same boring, tired one. When DC started doing these recent animated films, they didn't all try to shoehorn them into the Batman TAS/Superman/Justice League continuity, did they? Because a lot of the stories wouldn't make any sense, they wouldn't be entertaining, and they'd be hindered rather than helped by the continuity.

Think about if every time Batman showed up in animation, he had to be voiced by Kevin Conroy. Every single time! That would piss me off after a while--not because Kevin Conroy is a bad actor or a bad Batman* but sometimes his Batman voice just isn't what you need--and if the story for The Gathering actually had any *substance* then that'd be a thing.

*Although I didn't like how he was in Gotham Knight, I didn't think it fit well at all.

I think that's my main problem, actually--the Gathering and its sequel didn't have a story, it took random plot threads from an existing thing and spun out of it in a way that didn't feel organic or natural at all. Why does Magmatron need an army of stasis pod guys? Because there is already an army of stasis pod guys for him to go get. Magmatron didn't even get used because of the character Magmatron is, he just got used because he wuz kewl. (This can be shown in the fact that Mags' personality is fucking nothing like Magmatron at all, and the BW profile book actually randomly gives Magmatron's personality to BWII Galvatron.)

Starting a new continuity while celebrating a milestone for the old? Trying to reconnect a generalized audience with a franchise that'd been been gone for 6 years? As I said before, I think it would have been harder for IDW to launch a new continuity given some of those factors. And they were banking on the popularity of the show. They wouldn't be able to do that with a new continuity.

If IDW wanted to piggyback on the show's success, then they should have focused on the show characters exclusively and created some kind of "inbetween episode" comics. That would have pleased the BW "hardcore" (whom I generally despise because of their general lack of wanting a new continuity) but probably alienated readers like me who would've preferred we see some toy-only and Japanese characters in a different setting. So IDW tried to please both camps, and in doing so failed both of us--those of us who wanted show characters definitely got the shaft there, and those of us who wanted new characters and a new continuity got the shaft by having it tied to this show that I've gotten sick of being talked about.

You say that BW was "out of the public conciousness" but there's a small but very vocal subsect of people who haven't shut the bloody fuck up about Beast Wars since 1999. (They won't even give Beast Machines a chance, either.) And if you don't believe me, hop onto /co/ sometime and whenever you can wade through the shitty Prime or Animated posts in the TF General threads, you'll find the only other thing they talk about, BW.

I guess my biggest problem is that a lot of these so-called TF fans will latch onto a single series and continually profess their misguided love for it and decrying everything else as sucky. It's these fans that ruin series for me. Because I am a TF fan 'in general.' I see redeeming aspects in *every* series. I enjoy them all for what they are and I *don't* sit around wishing forever that we would get a continuation of [x] series that ran three years ago. The Beast Wars are over, fanboys--you lose.

[Dominic]

I want to step in and disagree with this. The 15th anniversary is a perfect time to restart something differently. "Hey, remember that thing you loved 15 years ago? We're restarting it in a new, awesome way!"

Actually, it was the 10 year anniversary. The problem with rebooting, (not that I think this should have stopped a reboot), at the 10+ year mark is that the origional fans who stuck around had 10+ years to develop an unhealthy attachment to the original content. They are not going to like change at all.

(And truth be told, if I had the choice, I'd throw a new BW series over in a second for a new series without a Prime or a Megatron.)

"Last Stand of the Wreckers". Fucking read it. Prime and Megatron are mentioned. But, that is it. Or, is it true that all you Englishmen are allergic to things with flavor? (Ohhhhhhhhhh....snap!)

To the general public, they probably hadn't seen the convention comics, so IDW's comic in 2006 was the first Beast Wars related story in 6 years. IDW isn't just catering to the fans here, they'd like to pull as much as the general audience they can as well.

The problem is that they were just catering to fans. After 6 years, nobody outside of the fandom is going to remember, or care about, BW. The audiences of the 90s were much different from the audiences of the 80s. For us, (the children of the late 70s and early 80s), the business and marketing model used for TF was new. By the mid 90s, (when children of the late 80s would have been watching), it was old hat. It would have been hard for a show to have the same impact on mass audiences in the 90s that a show could have had in the 80s. There were also more distractions, (other media and better technology), which means that even fans would be less obsessive.

Making the comic tie-in with a show that had middling (at best animation for the time) and that has not aged well was a bad idea. Writing wise, BW was too much a product of its moment. Of course, the real problem is the comic. Fuman assumed that readers knew and cared about the old series, (which rules out any new readers), rather than trying to write something that could stand on its own merits. There were fans of the old BW series that had a hard time following parts of Furman's BW run.

Are you me? I was rather peeved with The Gathering/The Ascending back in the day (Ascending issue 2 set me off something fierce, it was that bad).

IYour "tied up a guy with sharp things on his limbs using rope" rant was a bit better. But, yeah, your old posts on the BW comics were generally epic. Seriously, I was glad to have read the comics just to have the same points of reference you were making.

I think the last "flame war" we had was when some AllSpark posters came over for some poll and everyone started arguing about Go-Bots.

Actually, it was a handful of Erectards from TFW. And, that was not really a flame-war so much as us telling them, (in various degrees of severity), to sit the hell down and shut the hell up. That thing with Synjo? *That* was a flame war.

I'm somewhat curious... Dreamwave's comic from what little we know would have been a lot like "The Gathering" except set after the Maximals left with Megatron, and appears that the Maximals may have even come back to Earth after Megatron had broken free. What would you have thought about that?

It would have depended on what Furman was going to do with it. He was definitely in "lazy hack" form at the time. Of course, that might have had to do with Lee not actually paying him for a while.

I actually voted for RiD in that poll. But, the BW option tempted me.

guess it'd have to be initially set in Africa, considering most of the species. Not a bloody zoo, though. -_-

It could have been set globally. Why would a war that jumped across multiple planets be limited to just one region of one planet? Dinosaur forms could have been reconciled by having the Cybertronians misunderstand information they gathered about the planet's native species.

There is no reason that they would have had to have scanned living, or even intact specimens. BWII showed that it was possible to scan the *idea* of a new form rather than an actual form. (None of the Predacons in that series had actual subjects to scan.)

Because I am a TF fan 'in general.' I see redeeming aspects in *every* series. I enjoy them all for what they are and I *don't* sit around wishing forever that we would get a continuation of [x] series that ran three years ago.

I am in a slightly more critical category. I do not like every TF series. There are plenty of TF series that I can find nothing good to say about. But, I do not say that "not x________ = caca del fuego". I just hold out for "series of the same caliber as x_________________".


Dom
-needs a nap after reading this line.

The Beast Wars are over, fanboys--you lose.

[Gomess]

is it true that all you Englishmen are allergic to things with flavor? (Ohhhhhhhhhh....snap!)

Oh booo. You know full well I'm more Italian than you, and I could cook you right into paradise.

It could have been set globally. Why would a war that jumped across multiple planets be limited to just one region of one planet? Dinosaur forms could have been reconciled by having the Cybertronians misunderstand information they gathered about the planet's native species.

Ok, great, now I HAVE to write this comic. Sigh. Anyone remember how well my last TF comic went? No? EXACTLY

Gom
-at least BW is a smaller, more focused property to write fic based on.