All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

[Dominic]

Sarcasm? What?

Now yours is showing!

edit: though just to add one more comment to the mix, didn't Bombshell talk about manipulating Sunstreaker in some way, at the beginning of issue #12? Playing off his fears and insecurities, which he learned thanks to Hunter? Meaning Sunstreaker made the decision he did in part because of manipulation.

Still, it is not like he had a gun to his head. It is hard to provoke someone into doing something they just would not do anyway.

Once again, that doesn't prove anything for this situation. It's a logical fallacy.

How is what I said a logical fallacy? I was saying "this is why it makes perfect sense for Sunstreaker, under the conditions presented in AHM, to want all humans to die."

Himmler isn't Sunstreaker. And what Sunstreaker did wouldn't and didn't keep his hands clean.

Sunstreaker would not have to sully his hands with the actual "dirty work" of killing people. He just wants it done.

That's what I said. Spike doesn't know the difference. He doesn't know the Transformers. Unlike Sunstreaker, who does know several humans on a personal level.

Spike, oh poor angry Spike, should damned well know the difference. He not only saw Prime and co fight the Decepticons. He jaw-boned with Prime for a bit.

The major's point about not really knowing the Autobots motives holds here. But, it would make more sense to *try* to cultivate allies among big alien robots for the purposes of killing other big alien robots. Unless of course enough people are just angry enough to want to kill all big alien robots.

I have no idea what you're talking about... "Anime learning curve"?

Sunstreaker learns a valuable lesson about humanity.........


For the record, I can totally see what Spike and the major are doing. It is just seen as "easier" to kill all robots than sort out who the "good ones" are.

Aside from shafting his buddies, what Sunstreaker did was not really that bad. Granted, he could have been smarter about it and not gone right to the Decepticons. (Would IDW Prowl really have had a problem with the plan conceptually? He probably would have been fine tossing Earth under the bus if he thought Starscream would deliver.)

In some ways, the bond with Hunter would be *more* of a reason to want Hunter dead. How much more humiliating is it to be vulnerable in front of people you *know*?


Dom
-would probably have whacked Hunter at the very least.

[Sparky Prime]

How is what I said a logical fallacy? I was saying "this is why it makes perfect sense for Sunstreaker, under the conditions presented in AHM, to want all humans to die."

I've already explained it a couple times, I don't see the need to do it again. And as I've been saying, it most certainly does not make perfect sense.

Sunstreaker would not have to sully his hands with the actual "dirty work" of killing people. He just wants it done.

It doesn't matter if Sunstreaker didn't do the actual 'dirty work', giving someone else the means to do, and asking them to do it, it still makes him just as responsible.

Spike, oh poor angry Spike, should damned well know the difference. He not only saw Prime and co fight the Decepticons. He jaw-boned with Prime for a bit.

Yes, big unknown alien robots and he's supposed to somehow figure out based on them fighting each other and 15 seconds of interaction who the 'good' aliens are from the 'bad' aliens. He still doesn't know the Autobots any more than he does the Decepticons.

The major's point about not really knowing the Autobots motives holds here. But, it would make more sense to *try* to cultivate allies among big alien robots for the purposes of killing other big alien robots. Unless of course enough people are just angry enough to want to kill all big alien robots.

It's kinda hard to trust alien robots when they just tried to conquer your planet and you don't know them well enough to understand the difference between their factions. The same cannot be said for Sunstreaker who got to know various humans before Maachination attacked him (and was being run by a Decepticon).

Sunstreaker learns a valuable lesson about humanity.........

Hardly an "anime" exclusive idea.

In some ways, the bond with Hunter would be *more* of a reason to want Hunter dead. How much more humiliating is it to be vulnerable in front of people you *know*?

I'd argue the opposite. What better way to heal then talking it out and bonding with someone who shared the experience?

[Dominic]

You're comparing non-sociopaths not associating with animals as your reasoning for why it makes perfect sense for Sunstreaker to want to kill all of humanity? That's a logical fallacy Dom. Trying to justify something as perfect sense by using something unrelated doesn't work.

I am saying the level of association is where Sunstreaker's willingness to kill people would come from. His motive was that humans held him down and violated him on multiple levels.

I was using the fact that normal/sane people often do not see animals as worthy of moral consideration as a real-world example of why the "Sunstreaker is willing to kill all humans over an offense committed by a relative few" plot-point makes sense.

If a *normal* person/TF is not guaranteed to recognize the moral worth of another species, then a sociopath (who is pretty well honked off) is *really* not going to bother with such distinctions.

It doesn't matter if Sunstreaker didn't do the actual 'dirty work', giving someone else the means to do, and asking them to do it, it still makes him just as responsible.

Yeah, but he does not want muck on his hands, nor would he want to be seen getting his hands dirty. Sunstreaker is vain/proud. Think of it as a more extreme example of why some politicians do not want to be photographed under certain conditions.

Yes, big unknown alien robots and he's supposed to somehow figure out based on them fighting each other and 15 seconds of interaction who the 'good' aliens are from the 'bad' aliens. He still doesn't know the Autobots any more than he does the Decepticons.

I actually agree. I was being sarcastic in bemoaning Spike's lack of tolerance. In AHM #12, Spike makes it clear that humans and TFs are not on good terms.

Joking aside, telling the giant alien robots you do not like them might not have been such a hot idea. But, tempers were likely short.

I'd argue the opposite. What better way to heal then talking it out and bonding with someone who shared the experience?

If Sunstreaker does not see Hunter as morally worthy, why would he want to bond/relate with him? Why would he view Hunter's pain as equal to his?

And, if you were humiliated, and incredibly vain, would you want the guy who knew more about it than anyone else walkin' around and possibly talkin' smack?


Dom
-is not proud that he understands this so well.

[Sparky Prime]

I am saying the level of association is where Sunstreaker's willingness to kill people would come from. His motive was that humans held him down and violated him on multiple levels.

One group violated him. Machination. How does that turn into "killz all teh hmanz!!"?

I was using the fact that normal/sane people often do not see animals as worthy of moral consideration as a real-world example of why the "Sunstreaker is willing to kill all humans over an offense committed by a relative few" plot-point makes sense.

If a *normal* person/TF is not guaranteed to recognize the moral worth of another species, then a sociopath (who is pretty well honked off) is *really* not going to bother with such distinctions.

Your making a generalization that disregards various factors. Why doesn't that normal/sane person associate with animals? Do all sociopaths have a hard time associating with creatures outside their own species? And so on. Trying to compare a normal person not associating with animals normally to a sociopath's want for genocide after being traumatized just doesn't work in this context. There are just too many factors to take into consideration that wont necessarily lead up to the same conclusion.

And there was a point I raised earlier on the issue that Sunstreaker's assault is compared to a rape. The most common response for rape victims isn't to lash out like this at all, rather it's with withdraw inwards. Even as a sociopath, Sunstreaker's actions to not match the expected outcome.

Yeah, but he does not want muck on his hands, nor would he want to be seen getting his hands dirty. Sunstreaker is vain/proud. Think of it as a more extreme example of why some politicians do not want to be photographed under certain conditions.

Doesn't change that either way his hands would get dirty. Even if the Autobots didn't find out it was him, Sunstreaker would know.

If Sunstreaker does not see Hunter as morally worthy, why would he want to bond/relate with him? Why would he view Hunter's pain as equal to his?

And, if you were humiliated, and incredibly vain, would you want the guy who knew more about it than anyone else walkin' around and possibly talkin' smack?

How do you know Sunstreaker doesn't see Hunter as morally worthy? Doesn't seem like the two had a chance to talk after Sunstreaker was physically restored back to normal. Again, talking about a shared experience would help the healing process, even if they don't get along.

[BWprowl]

And there was a point I raised earlier on the issue that Sunstreaker's assault is compared to a rape. The most common response for rape victims isn't to lash out like this at all, rather it's with withdraw inwards. Even as a sociopath, Sunstreaker's actions to not match the expected outcome.

Of course it wasn't the 'expected' outcome. It was an atypical response. That's why it was *surprising* when we found out what he did! Something we totally didn't see coming happened! That was the entire point! It's a very common storytelling element, Christ.

If characters in stories only reacted to things the way 90% of people in real life react to the same things, stories would be really fucking boring.

Yeah, but he does not want muck on his hands, nor would he want to be seen getting his hands dirty. Sunstreaker is vain/proud. Think of it as a more extreme example of why some politicians do not want to be photographed under certain conditions.

Doesn't change that either way his hands would get dirty. Even if the Autobots didn't find out it was him, Sunstreaker would know.

One thing that needs to be asked here, I think, is would Sunstreaker still have gone for genocide on the humans had Starscream not approached him with the offer? At the time, Suntreaker was still hurting bad from the whole experience when Starscream came to him, and when 'Streaker found out that a result of this plan would just happen to be those filthy, raping, humans getting wiped out, his agreement could be seen as a rage-induced 'sure, why not'. Sunstreaker didn't go looking for genocide, but when the opportunity arose, he decided that he wanted it.

How do you know Sunstreaker doesn't see Hunter as morally worthy? Doesn't seem like the two had a chance to talk after Sunstreaker was physically restored back to normal. Again, talking about a shared experience would help the healing process, even if they don't get along.

Do you remember why they didn't have a chance to talk? Sunstreaker didn't want to. Hell, he didn't seem to enjoy the experience of sharing his brain with Hunter at all; every time we saw them he was carrying on about wanting to get his real head back.

Aside from shafting his buddies, what Sunstreaker did was not really that bad. Granted, he could have been smarter about it and not gone right to the Decepticons. (Would IDW Prowl really have had a problem with the plan conceptually? He probably would have been fine tossing Earth under the bus if he thought Starscream would deliver.)

Hey, remember how OPTIMUS PRIME had no problem tossing Earth under the bus just because he Couldn't Deal With That Right Now at the end of Devastation?

[Sparky Prime]

Of course it wasn't the 'expected' outcome. It was an atypical response. That's why it was *surprising* when we found out what he did! Something we totally didn't see coming happened! That was the entire point! It's a very common storytelling element, Christ.

How was it surprising? I figured Sunstreaker was the traitor from the moment they said there was one. Especially given how heavily they were trying to imply it was Mirage, making it obvious it wasn't going to be him. Sunstreaker was the only obvious choice IMO given the recent trauma he went through and lack of any motivation in the story for any other characters to be candidates.

And again, when telling a story, your plot twists actually have to make sense. You can't just do something unexpected that doesn't work in context to events. Sunstreaker turning traitor I think fits, but wanting genocide of humanity was over the top. If they'd just left it at 'get revenge' with out being any more specific, then maybe it would have worked (though, I still think Sunstreaker should have been focused on getting revenge against Machination for himself), but they had to take it beyond that...

If characters in stories only reacted to things the way 90% of people in real life react to the same things, stories would be really fucking boring.

Yes, heaven forbid characters act real.

Sunstreaker didn't go looking for genocide, but when the opportunity arose, he decided that he wanted it.

Seriously, it's Starscream. Even unbalanced, Sunstreaker should know not to trust him or any opportunities he's offering.

Do you remember why they didn't have a chance to talk? Sunstreaker didn't want to. Hell, he didn't seem to enjoy the experience of sharing his brain with Hunter at all; every time we saw them he was carrying on about wanting to get his real head back.

Which actually does match the profile for the trauma he's been through. But still doesn't change that it's healthier to talk it out and actually deal with the experience rather than repress it.

[andersonh1]

Yes, heaven forbid characters act real.

That's the point I've been trying to make, and here's where we disagree. I think Sunstreaker's betrayal of Earth and his desire to see the humans "punished" for what happened to him is realistic. It's not a logical or rational reaction, based on the fact that Sunstreaker should have saved his anger for the small group who actually hurt and humiliated him. But people don't always make the logical or rational choice, even when presented with the facts.

Surely you've known people who make the wrong choice or continue to believe something that's incorrect even when presented with facts that contradict their point of view? I certainly have. Sometimes all that matters is how someone feels, and facts that contradict their emotions are irrelevant. That's what happened to Sunstreaker. Look at issue 8 where Sideswipe approaches him and tries to reason with him, and he just blows up and screams at Sideswipe that he doesn't want to talk about it. Sunstreaker isn't open to reason or facts. He's angry, he's hurt, and he just wants to make someone pay.

I would also point out, as evidence that he's emotionally disturbed, that he's suicidal at the end. Ironhide asks him if he's trying to get himself killed, and he replies that yes, he is. He just wants to die, for it all to end. Sunstreaker is badly screwed up. He's not making logical, rational decisions.

[Shockwave]

The most common response

Sure, that's the most common response, but that doesn't hold true for everybody and there certainly have been rape victims that have lashed out that way. The fact that some DO have that response is what makes the Sunstreaker story believable. Is it really THAT difficult for you to understand that we're supposed to believe Sunstreaker falls into that minority? I mean REALLY?

[Shockwave]

Edit: Double post due to damned timing out issues. Gah.

[Dominic]

One group violated him. Machination. How does that turn into "killz all teh hmanz!!"?

If one does not make moral distinctions between individual members of the group, wanting to attack one individual is the same as wanting to attack them all.

Real life example: most any racist/bigot who hates all members of a group because of what some members of a group did. (One might argue that politically associated animosity is okay, especially when the group is based on self-selection. But, most bigots do not make this distinction.)

Your making a generalization that disregards various factors. Why doesn't that normal/sane person associate with animals? Do all sociopaths have a hard time associating with creatures outside their own species? And so on. Trying to compare a normal person not associating with animals normally to a sociopath's want for genocide after being traumatized just doesn't work in this context. There are just too many factors to take into consideration that wont necessarily lead up to the same conclusion.

Most sociopaths do not regard members of their own species as morally worth-while. That is kind of their thing. Yes, there are variations to every mental status. (I have met lunatics who I have quite liked. I have met sane people I have liked. I have met members of both groups I would be happy to see the end of.)

It would make sense for a sociopath to write off a whole species, especially if members of that species brutalized them.

Sunstreaker's actions to not match the expected outcome.

Sunstreaker is abnormally vain and aggressive.

Doesn't change that either way his hands would get dirty. Even if the Autobots didn't find out it was him, Sunstreaker would know.

But, would he *care*? He might care if the other Autobots found out. But, would he care if he got away with it?

The only guilt, (which is arguably odd for a sociopath), Sunstreaker shows is over having wronged his fellow Autobots. Sunstreaker was (initially) not willing to take a fall for Mirage. But, he is presumably sorry to see Mirage get hurt. (Or, his "Ironhide, stop, they will see", might be a question of Sunstreaker wanting to keep things quiet so as to minimize attention/scrutiny.)

Again, talking about a shared experience would help the healing process, even if they don't get along.

Only if one does not associate the other person who shared the experience with being the cause of the experience.

One thing that needs to be asked here, I think, is would Sunstreaker still have gone for genocide on the humans had Starscream not approached him with the offer?

Who approached who actually? I do think Sunstreaker would have gone for it, (assuming practial mean were available), either way.

Hey, remember how OPTIMUS PRIME had no problem tossing Earth under the bus just because he Couldn't Deal With That Right Now at the end of Devastation?

Those were the days!

How was it surprising? I figured Sunstreaker was the traitor from the moment they said there was one. Especially given how heavily they were trying to imply it was Mirage, making it obvious it wasn't going to be him. Sunstreaker was the only obvious choice IMO given the recent trauma he went through and lack of any motivation in the story for any other characters to be candidates.

I was not ruling out Sideswipe as being the traitor.

Either of them would have been surprising, given that Hasbro had toys of them (in the models used) available.

If they'd just left it at 'get revenge' with out being any more specific, then maybe it would have worked (though, I still think Sunstreaker should have been focused on getting revenge against Machination for himself), but they had to take it beyond that...

Morally, yes, Sunstreaker should have focused on the Machination. A few punitive raids against that organization, and possibly associates like members families and home-towns, would have been fine. That would have been reasonable.

But, the point is not that Sunstreaker made the right choice.

But, as I said before, Sunstreaker is not obligated to humanity.

I would also point out, as evidence that he's emotionally disturbed, that he's suicidal at the end. Ironhide asks him if he's trying to get himself killed, and he replies that yes, he is. He just wants to die, for it all to end. Sunstreaker is badly screwed up. He's not making logical, rational decisions.

I think it was guilt in issue 8.

Just because Sunstreaker does not feel obligated to humanity it does not mean he wanted to see the Autobots in such a state. If Sunstreaker sees himself as the golden-boy hero, he would likely not want to see the Autobots losing because of something he did.


Dom
-nearly 800 posts later.....