All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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Sparky Prime
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:Killing a guy nobody likes (Ramjet), when everybody else has something to worry about (war with the Autobots), is cheaper than killing multiple guys when everybody is kind of hurting for things to do. The purge would wind up being causing a new rift, effectively splitting the remaining faction into two.
Where are you getting this "nobody likes Ramjet" exactly? Nothing in the story gives me that impression in the least. He and Skywarp actually appear to be on friendly terms at the start of the issue as they fly around. And Skywarp, in his own way, warns him not to cross Megatron.
It would be less a question of Megatron being able to afford the loss of the guys he would kill and more a question of being able to afford the political and morale costs, which could lead to more violence and dissent.
You once again seem to be forgetting Megatron was leaving out the little detail that he was even in control of the nuke. For all we know only he and Tankor knew that, while the rest of the Decepticons would have been under the impression the humans alone were behind the attack. If this was maintained, it wouldn't cause a rift among the Decepticons at all, rather they would have been renewed in their rage against Earth. Megatron would only have everything to gain in that situation.
"Transformers" is soft sci-fi. Transformer brains are as complex and/or different from human brains as they need to be. Having some information about computers or human brains would help. But, past a certain point, it become impossible to define a fictional construct, especially one that is inherently unreal.
The Transformers are a highly advanced race of aliens. They themselves, in essence, being highly advance machines, it's understandable that they'd be capable of building highly advanced computer networks, possibly even capable of doing more than organic brains. And they don't exactly have a lot of experience with human physiology to be able to use Hunter in a productive way. From a sci-fi perspective, you have to come up with a plausible explanation of how this is made possible, even if it's just a vague theory. McCarthy just uses Hunter as a McGruffin, capable of doing this to further the story but offers no real explanations.
Shockwave wrote:Which is an example of what Dom was saying about how writers really shouldn't go there since it then gets into the area of what technologically can or can't work. There's too many of us tech geeks out there to see through this kind of stuff and really McCarthy (look I remembered a writer's name!) shouldn't have gone there unless he has a second job doing computer tech support. He doesn't and it shows in the story with Sunstreaker.
I really don't mind writers going into areas of technology, as long as they're able to come up with a plausible explanation or theory of how it could potentially work. The problem here is that McCarthy only goes half way, explaining they used the human headmaster but not how they could use him beyond just as a headmaster unit.
Dominic wrote:it is not a question of preaching a message. it is a question of the writer showing some understanding of an idea beyond comics/TFs/whatever being kewl.
See now, previously you've presenting your thoughts of an author having an "idea" as some point that they want to get across, in essence preaching a message. Now you're saying an idea is something else. So which is it?

Either way, you seem to be misunderstanding my point given you can seem to get past the "X is kewl" thing, when that isn't what I'm saying at all.
Onslaught Six wrote:To the discussion on writers and what they have to say, I'm going to pick up an entirely different book: Atomic Robo! It's a book where a robot that Tesla built kicks the shit out of monsters and robots and stuff. What's the book got to say? Mostly, it's just a book where a cool character does cool things...but he does them in an interesting and well-done way. For example, there's subtle characterisation all throughout the book. And there's one issue where Robo answers a reporter about what the hardest part about being an immortal nuclear robot is, and he answers, "The hardest part is that I'm 83 years old. I do a great Jack Benny, but no one really gets it anymore."
This is more along the lines of what I'm talking about, but rather than calling it "what the book/author has to say" or "understanding of an idea", I call that characterization, interesting plot, backstory, setting... you know, the most basic elements of good storytelling.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Sparky Prime wrote:This is more along the lines of what I'm talking about, but rather than calling it "what the book/author has to say" or "understanding of an idea", I call that characterization, interesting plot, backstory, setting... you know, the most basic elements of good storytelling.
Exactly, you have all of those elements and you'll have an interesting and fun story which by default will give you something more than just "___ is kewl". Beast Wars is the perfect example of this. The TV series ruled. The IDW comic sucked. Why? Well the TV show had interesting characters with interesting back stories doing interesting things in an interesting setting. But at no point while watching BW do I ever feel that the writers are ever trying to "say" something or make a larger point. They just wrote interesting stories that focused on developing the characters. In the course of that they had moved beyond "robots that turn into animals are kewl". The comic on the other hand was nothing more than a toy parade. It seemed to be a constant barage of "hey, you know that toy on your shelf? well here it is!" So? Without decent writing to back it up I don't care. This is why I keep saying that entertainment is character driven. You have to have interesting characters or you won't care what they're doing or why they're doing it. NBK for me is the perfect example of this. Sure, it had a message and Oliver Stone definately displayed an understanding of an idea beyond "killers are kewl" but the characters weren't interesting, I therefore didn't care what they were doing and therefore the movie sucked.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Onslaught Six »

Shockwave wrote:But at no point while watching BW do I ever feel that the writers are ever trying to "say" something or make a larger point.
What about Call of the Jungle? Or, hey, Beast Machines.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

What about Call of Jungle? :? Bob Skir actually states on the dvds that he was trying to push the mystical side of things so you could argue that he actually was trying to say something with BM. And as awesome as BM was, and to some extent that was a big part of what was awesome about it, it doesn't make a very good example of what I was talking about. Which is why I didn't use it as the example.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

Is that what he was saying? I thought the message was that the media sensationalizes violence. Which was the same message behind To Die For, but To Die For had a tongue in cheek dark humor fun feel to it where as NBK came off to me as just another Oliver Stone acid trip.

There was also a "look how bad everybody else is" bit. The media makes violence sensational entertainment, and does not feel bad about it. (This is also an indictment of the people who watch/pay for said entertainment.) In the end, the two homicidal maniacs were more reflective, and thus less bad than the rest.
I guess the simple answer is that a computer hacker would be a non-combative role, and therefore less appealing as a toy to sell to kids. I could totally see one showing up as a convention-exclusive though. Here's hoping.
A hacker could be a combat role. If nothing else, a mind-controller would be a hacker in the context of TF. Look at a game like "Kingdoms". The fire army has mind-controllers who do not fight, but they are some of the most dangerous pieces on the map.
You also start getting into the question of, if this one Transformer has the ability to randomly hack into any given TF's brain, why can't everybody do this? And once you get to that point, you start to question why they're ever in physical combat at all, when in reality, they could just hack into each other's brains.

Really, the TFs having physical combat at all is pretty idiotic. Realistically, Prime and Megatron should line up their troops at one another, stare each side down for a minute or two, and then Prime goes, "We win in 234 moves." Megs sighs, and goes, "Damn, you got us again. Decepticons, retreat!" But that's not fun at all.
This gets into the soft-scifi element of TF. As a species, they are operationally similar to people. People do not have universally equal talents, hence TFs do not.

The fact that Prime can give a tactical projection that says, "we win in 234 moves", does not solve the problem of why there is a need for combat. The Autobots and Decepticons would still have incompatible systems of belief, and scarce enough resources to make it impossible to live in relative quiet and ignore each-other. (Even religiously based wars usually involve some practical need for a resource of some kind.) Being able to make the projection would just force the Decepticons to do something to increase their chance of winning, forcing the Autobots to counter.....and......

There were shades of this in "Cybetron",but none of the series content had enough grounding to really do anywhere with it.

To the discussion on writers and what they have to say, I'm going to pick up an entirely different book: Atomic Robo! It's a book where a robot that Tesla built kicks the shit out of monsters and robots and stuff. What's the book got to say? Mostly, it's just a book where a cool character does cool things...but he does them in an interesting and well-done way. For example, there's subtle characterisation all throughout the book. And there's one issue where Robo answers a reporter about what the hardest part about being an immortal nuclear robot is, and he answers, "The hardest part is that I'm 83 years old. I do a great Jack Benny, but no one really gets it anymore."

I would like to see the "Atomic Robo" guy pick up a run of TF. I have only read a few issues of "Atomic Robo", but it seems pretty good. Maybe if I could get a full run of it, I would add it to my regular pull-list.

A book need not have an overall "preachy" message, but it does need something of *substance.*
This is largely what I mean by a book needing to have an idea. For example, a story about a near immortal robot, (as I assume Robo can still die under the right circumstances), can show the robot adapating (or not) through history, and even get into why the robot adapts or not. At a basic level, yesterday's hero might be today's menace. At a more advanced level, the writer could try to address how and why this would happen.

This is more along the lines of what I'm talking about, but rather than calling it "what the book/author has to say" or "understanding of an idea", I call that characterization, interesting plot, backstory, setting... you know, the most basic elements of good storytelling.
But, it should be less about characterization and more about the idea. The writer uses the character to say what needs to be said. But, they are not saying something as a reason to use the character. Frankly, I do not care about Optimus Prime, or Megatron, or Sunstreaker. I care if a writer has something to say and happens to use them.


Nothing in the story gives me that impression in the least. He and Skywarp actually appear to be on friendly terms at the start of the issue as they fly around. And Skywarp, in his own way, warns him not to cross Megatron.
Skywarp is civil. But, he also gives the impression that he is kind of sneaking off to see Ramjet, (as being seen with ol's RJ might not be such a hot idea). Skywarp even points out that RJ is in the dog-house after "the incident". And, Skywarp is chuckling along with everybody else on the last page.

You once again seem to be forgetting Megatron was leaving out the little detail that he was even in control of the nuke. For all we know only he and Tankor knew that, while the rest of the Decepticons would have been under the impression the humans alone were behind the attack. If this was maintained, it wouldn't cause a rift among the Decepticons at all, rather they would have been renewed in their rage against Earth. Megatron would only have everything to gain in that situation.
How stupid are we assuming the Decepticons are? If Megatron says, "okay guys, lets uh, randomly split up.... Me and all the guys who I can trust are going ....uh.....to the story, yeah, that works....and Starscream and his guys can stay here, and um.....well, just wait here. Be right back!", before a bomb falls, a few of the suriviving Decepticons are likely to figure out something was up. This would not boost morale unless all of the guys Megatron takes with him are *reallY* stupid.

It might work if Megatron said "Okay, everybody, lets all go for a walk/fly away from the city for a bit. Meet back here for dinner in about 8 hours." Then, after everybody leaves, the bomb falls. Megatron could then say, "Wow. Can you believe they tried to do that to us? Lets get 'em."

What about Call of the Jungle?
"Call of the Wild" or "Law of the Jungle"? Either episode would work though.


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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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Dominic wrote:I would like to see the "Atomic Robo" guy pick up a run of TF.
I'd be interested in it, too, but with Clevinger's writing style, it'd certainly need to focus on second-string characters like Nightbeat. Not that that's a bad thing. And he does have mild interest in TF--at least as much as any other 80s franchise.
I have only read a few issues of "Atomic Robo", but it seems pretty good. Maybe if I could get a full run of it, I would add it to my regular pull-list.
The third TPB comes out in December and coincides with a reprinting of the first TPB with a different cover.
This is largely what I mean by a book needing to have an idea. For example, a story about a near immortal robot, (as I assume Robo can still die under the right circumstances), can show the robot adapating (or not) through history, and even get into why the robot adapts or not. At a basic level, yesterday's hero might be today's menace. At a more advanced level, the writer could try to address how and why this would happen.
Yes. The first TPB actually ends with a government document detailing Robo's various body parts and possible weaknessess--which are few and far between. In an issue in Volume 2, Robo spends most of the issue missing his legs. (Which also leads to hilarious dialogue like "You leg-stealing Nazis!")
But, it should be less about characterization and more about the idea. The writer uses the character to say what needs to be said. But, they are not saying something as a reason to use the character. Frankly, I do not care about Optimus Prime, or Megatron, or Sunstreaker. I care if a writer has something to say and happens to use them.
Strictly, I don't technically need this stuff to be there, but it's really good when it is. Prime is at his best, honestly, when used in an almost deus ex machina way, ala TFTM. (I still rank the first half hour or so of TFTM, right up until Starscream dies, as one of the coolest TF media ever made.)
"Call of the Wild" or "Law of the Jungle"? Either episode would work though.
I don't know anymore, the two episode titles are so stupidly similar that it doesn't matter. The one where they all start acting like animals because they've been in Beast Mode too long.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:But, it should be less about characterization and more about the idea. The writer uses the character to say what needs to be said. But, they are not saying something as a reason to use the character. Frankly, I do not care about Optimus Prime, or Megatron, or Sunstreaker. I care if a writer has something to say and happens to use them.
So you'd rather read something that sucks with a point than something that's good that's just fun?
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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There's a difference, things that have an idea usually don't suck. Not that things that don't have ideas always suck, either.

I need to stop getting into such high-concept arguments, the fact that I barely know what I'm talking about half the time is starting to visibly manifest.
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Onslaught Six wrote:There's a difference, things that have an idea usually don't suck. Not that things that don't have ideas always suck, either.
There is a difference and I think you just paraphrased my whole point from four posts ago when I made the BW analogy. I think Dom is trying to argue that when he reads, I cares more about the idea than the characters where as I care more about the characters than the idea.
Onslaught Six wrote:I need to stop getting into such high-concept arguments, the fact that I barely know what I'm talking about half the time is starting to visibly manifest.
Why? Your perspective is just as valid as anyone else's. I would argue that you know as much about what you're talking about as anyone else around here.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Onslaught Six »

My perspective is less valid when I can barely articulate it myself. I blame the fact that my girlfriend's father just passed away, and I'm condolencing her from two hours away. (Well, she's actually taking it rather well, but that's a different story. My girlfriend is crazy and I love it.)
BWprowl wrote:The internet having this many different words to describe nerdy folks is akin to the whole eskimos/ice situation, I would presume.
People spend so much time worrying about whether a figure is "mint" or not that they never stop to consider other flavours.
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