All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Sparky Prime wrote:
Shockwave wrote:Because it's a free internet and we have the right to whine.
Indeed. Doesn't change that it's not necessary.
Actually I wasn't going to say anything, but since O6 brought it up, I figured I'd second it. As for the discussion, I'm out. But I'm perfectly happy to watch you and Dom fight it out.

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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:As far as the analogy goes, there are accounts of hunters shooting their own dogs out of boredom after not finding/killing anything for a bit. (Franted, these accounts were in animal rights mags I read years ago. But, I can definitely comprehend it happening.)
You would have to be a terrible hunter (on so many levels) to do something like that. While the Decepticons can be inept at their duties, they tend to be pretty focused when it comes to battling against the Autobots.
The infiltration protocols would be easier to sell as part of a routine war effort. (Yes, they were to take over planets. But, one reason for the take-over efforts would be the war with the Autobots.
Part of the war effort is for it to come to an end. Albeit the Autobots suffered major losses, I don't see that they were actually defeated or surrendered. As such, actually officially bringing the war to an end shouldn't be difficult to sell as part of the war effort.
Megatron having a flawed plan is (part of) the point of AHM. (Think of it as a more mature take on the idea from an old UK story (that I forget the name of), where the Autobors won and fractured. Megatron is trying, and failing, to give his troops spmething to do. When they do finally rebel, as seen in issue 10, Megatron has to put on a brave face. He cannot really say, "awww, guys, c'mon....". Well, he could try, but it would likely not go too well for him. He has to put a brave face on it.
You keep saying that part of the point of AHM was a flawed plan, but Megatron explains this stalling as waiting for Starscream to pick a side as well as his intentions to "remold" the army. Granted it's possible Megatron was lying about that, but you've also said that part of Megatron's plan is to hold the Decepticons together until the next leader (Starscream) could take over. As such, would he not need to make sure which side Starscream would ultimately choose in such a situation? As I've said before, this story isn't about giving the troops something to do after defeating the Autobots, Megatron by all indications wanted them to rebel and specifically put them on a path that ultimately would lead to exactly that. The means to the end makes no sense, but this plan apparently was Megatron's intention all along.
And, that is more interesting and shows more insight than any Magnificent Cosmic McGuffin.
McGuffins aren't meant to be insightful. They are meant to be plot devices simply to move the narrative from one point to another. And I couldn't disagree more that this story was interesting or insightful. This was the most boring Transformers story I have ever read.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

Issue 15 is out. Thoughts coming soon.

The idea behind the hunter shooting his dogs is that he is bored, and wants to kill something. I agree that it is wrong. But, when I play games like "War Craft" or "Total Annihilation", I sometimes attack my own pieces when there are few enemies to attack.


Megatron was wrong more about the timing and degree of the troubles than about them happening.

McCarthy was using TFs to write a story about an idea, not writing just to use TFs. People, and it seems TFs, need something to do. A dragon to hunt, an other to rally against is a real good thing to have. And opposing that dragon is rewarding for most people. Yeah, Megatron picked a lousy other. But, the basic principle was sound.

A McGuffin need not show any insight by the writers, but the plot the McGuffin moves should probably have more to it than simply showing a bunch of guys doing stuff.


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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Onslaught Six »

Dominic wrote:-like Roche's writing better than his art at this point.
Ooh, is this the issue with Kup in it? >.>
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by BWprowl »

Dominic wrote:The idea behind the hunter shooting his dogs is that he is bored, and wants to kill something. I agree that it is wrong. But, when I play games like "War Craft" or "Total Annihilation", I sometimes attack my own pieces when there are few enemies to attack.
Y'know, if you're playing as the Orks in Warhammer, attacking your own pieces actually *could* be beneficial.

Will likely be grabbing Issue 15 tomorrow.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Sparky Prime »

Dominic wrote:The idea behind the hunter shooting his dogs is that he is bored, and wants to kill something. I agree that it is wrong.
That doesn't matter. A hunter's dog is his ally that helps him on the hunt (such as tracking the prey's sent). That would be like the hunter shooting himself in the foot because he was bored. All that does is harm yourself. Even the Decepticons would know this.
Megatron was wrong more about the timing and degree of the troubles than about them happening.
He seemed pretty confident about everything to me, up until the Autobots showed up.
McCarthy was using TFs to write a story about an idea, not writing just to use TFs. People, and it seems TFs, need something to do. A dragon to hunt, an other to rally against is a real good thing to have. And opposing that dragon is rewarding for most people. Yeah, Megatron picked a lousy other. But, the basic principle was sound.
I'm sorry, but when writing a story that is supposed to be about certain characters in a certain setting, that should come first, not just an "idea" a writer has that can loosely be applied. Of course people/TF's need something to do. That sounds more like the premise for some sort of a self help book than it does a comic book story. You wouldn't have a story at all if there was nothing to do.
A McGuffin need not show any insight by the writers, but the plot the McGuffin moves should probably have more to it than simply showing a bunch of guys doing stuff.
You don't have a story if you don't have your characters doing anything at all. You need them to be "doing stuff". The McGruffin just serves to move from one point to another.


In brief on AHM #15: Kup's story was good and interesting. Perceptor's... pretty much what I feared it would be.
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Y'know Sparky, you make a good point, you have to have characters "doing stuff". In TF, the standard formula has been two factions fighting over something. Which kind of makes me wonder: Could an entire TF series/comic be done where the characters are all properly motivated to "do stuff" without the use of a McGuffin?

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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Onslaught Six »

Isn't that arguably what AHM *is?* What MacGuffin is there? You can't possibly mean The Matrix--Megs has it for the entire duration of the story, and that's it.

Also, BW and BM. Primal isn't motivated by X MacGuffin, he's motivated by his desire to (at first) create a wholly organic Cybertron and then (in S2) create a techno-organic, balanced world.

And that's not even getting into the wealth of fanfickery that's possible. Sure, Ethereal was a key-hunt, but RID2 was mostly characters running around for...the sake of having characters run around. Okay, horrible example!
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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Dominic »

Ooh, is this the issue with Kup in it? >.>
It is. You can read about it below!
A hunter's dog is his ally that helps him on the hunt (such as tracking the prey's sent).
Actually, a hunter's dog is often seen as a tool, a far different thing. (Again, I am not defending the morality of this, but dogs (and other animals) used for hunting, law-enforcement, or miliary purposes are generally considered equipment, more than members of the team.

It might be a waste of a resource to shoot the dog, but that is different from assuming the dog is worthy of moral consideration.

As far as the Decepticons go, there is no reason they cannot be as fratricidal as say....people.

I'm sorry, but when writing a story that is supposed to be about certain characters in a certain setting, that should come first, not just an "idea" a writer has that can loosely be applied. Of course people/TF's need something to do. That sounds more like the premise for some sort of a self help book than it does a comic book story. You wouldn't have a story at all if there was nothing to do.
The characters and settings in "Transformers" lend themselves to ideas about leadership, (and not just the "rise of a great leader" type stories), and organizational behavior. In this case, the story is about what happens and how the characters react when they have nothing to do. Look at Reflector after he tears those people apart, (issue 6 I think). He look absolutely dejected. Had Furman written it, we would have had pages of "and he is sad, and he is bored, and look at them, they are unhappy.....). McCarthy just showed them being miserable at their jobs.

Could an entire TF series/comic be done where the characters are all properly motivated to "do stuff" without the use of a McGuffin?
How are we defining McGuffin? There have been non-stupid, non-cosmic McGuffins in "Transformers". But, in any story, any motivation the characters have could be a McGuffin, if only a conceptual one. ("Power", even in the abstract, could be a McGuffin by this logic.) Even a story that consists mostly of a conversation could be said to have a McGuffin in the subject matter of the conversation.
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Isn't that arguably what AHM *is?* What MacGuffin is there? You can't possibly mean The Matrix--Megs has it for the entire duration of the story, and that's it
See above.

Isn't that arguably what AHM *is?* What MacGuffin is there? You can't possibly mean The Matrix--Megs has it for the entire duration of the story, and that's it.
In AHM, the Matrix is still arguably a McGuffin in that it is what motivates the Decepticons to rebel. At least, it gives them something to focus on. Purpose and hope could also be McGuffins in AHM, as the characters are looking for something.



Okay, issue 15:

With this issue, I am giving up any hope of getting all of Hutchinson's abstract covers. Besides the fact that all of the "Coda" covers are incentive covers, (and rare), the cover for issue 15 does not quite look like the other Hutchinson covers.

As of right now, I have the Nick Roche cover, (featuring Kup), and the Casey Coller variant, (featuring Perceptor). One is going to a friend of mine. I am tilting towards keepiong the Roche cover, as it focuses on the better story, but Coller's cover is the better piece of art.

Kup: Nick Roche is more or less the go-to guy for writing about Kup. Given how long "Transformers" has been around, it makes sense that there will now be more "legacy" writers beyond Budiansky and Furman. As was the case with the Kup "Spotlight" issue, Roche handles both the writing and art on this story. Some fans were concerned that Roche was a one hit wonder, and that his future work product would not meet his work on "Spotlight". This proves that not to be the case, and actually sets the bar higher for Roche's next outing. Roche delivers a story with a "shock" ending that is not only thematically consistent with "All Hail Megatron", (and its focus on leadership), and the "change" theme of this issue, but also has a degree of irony. Roche's explication at the end is a bit heavy, but given the characters involved, and the nature of their conversation, it fits well enough. Upon first reading, the art and writing seem a bit out of step. However, when I looked at the story again, (and it was a pleasure to do so), it is clear that much of the discord in intentional. There are a few panels that look a bit too cheerful given the tone of the story, but that may also be a function of the coloring.

Perceptor: This story is more or less what we expected, and holds no suprises. I think it was Onslaught 6 who put it best. "Perceptor got hurt, and it changed him one way or the other." No real suprises here. Denton Tipton handles the story well enough, but there is little be wowed by. There are few points where Tipton seems to be jabbing at the readers. I am not familiar enough with Tipton or IDW to be sure, and the jabs are not as nasty/obvious as some of Johns' recent efforts, or pretty much any of Grant Morrison's writing. Part of me is afraid that the changes to Perceptor shown in AHM will simply be undone or otherwise ignored. (Given that Perceptor was injured in AHM #8, this is a possibility. The fact that the first issue of the on-going series is going to have a "return to status quo", it is all too likely that IDW's "Transformers" comic will be adopting the standard pattern of the Big 2's superhero comics.

(I suppose this could be read at a meta level: "Transformers", it changes from well written, to bland hackery, and back again!)

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Re: All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

Post by Shockwave »

Dominic wrote:How are we defining McGuffin? There have been non-stupid, non-cosmic McGuffins in "Transformers". But, in any story, any motivation the characters have could be a McGuffin, if only a conceptual one. ("Power", even in the abstract, could be a McGuffin by this logic.) Even a story that consists mostly of a conversation could be said to have a McGuffin in the subject matter of the conversation.
I'm defining it as any physical object that characters fight over. Therefore, Abstract concepts such as power and motivation unto itself are not mcguffins. O6 made a good point by citing BM as an example of well written TF story without mcguffins.
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