discussion of contrary context from the US/UK comic
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:54 am
Like it or not, alternate timelines and multerverses are an assumed part of modern comics and sci-fi. Even pre-Crisis Trilogy DC ("Identity Crisis", "Infinite Crisis" and "Final Crisis") could not fully extirpate the idea despite a concerted effort and editorial directives to do so in the 1980s. The exceptions that DC allowed during those years were largely justified by the need to have in-story explanations for mistakes by writers and editors. This is also one of the primary justifications for having alternate worlds in most on-going fiction. The more inconsistencies that a property has, the more likely it is to have a few alternate timelines.
(It would probably be easier for everybody to just assume that somebody made a mistake, and to occassionally have an editor hand-wave a set of stories away. But, too many fans are not mature enough for that approach, particularly members of fandoms that have an unwarranted sense of ownership of their hobby.)
About 10 years back, TF had the idea of a multiverse formally introduced as part of the "Universe" line, most forcefully in the comics. Because that was an idea that originated with fans before it became official, and the first official handling of it was in the fan-influenced 3H comics (and later Fun Publications), it became an end unto itself rather than a quick and easy way to reconcile mistakes by writers and editors in-context. At this point, there is an entire classification system that is intended to allow dozens of iterations of TF that were never meant to fit together to fit together. It is also being retro-actively applied to the original G1 series, which had more than its share of sloppy errors.
The G1 comics alone could be used as a justification for a half-dozen or so distinct timelines.
The US comic itself ran for 80 issues. The UK comic ran along side, and often through, the US comics for a comparable amount of time. The issue count was considerably higher owing to a different publishing schedule. That same publishing schedule also required the UK TF book to have additional content. While much of the UK exclusive content could largely stand on its own, some it it required a reader to know about the US content.
Towards the end, the US comic required readers to have some understanding of UK content, (specifically the Death Bringer). Similarly, the UK comic split from the US comic somewhere around US issue 50 or so, (this was circa "Time Wars" in the UK), with the black and white filler stories. (These are often called "Earth Force", though only some of them were properly about Earth Force.) Before this point, the UK content could be reconciled with the US content without too much editorial acrobatics. A few editorial fiats and an occassional touch-up to the odd panel were enough to make things fit. But, shortly before Furman took over both books, they became impossible to reconcile without the assumption of alternate timelines. (Furman has made comments to the effect of admitting that he had difficulty juggling an increasingly hectic schedule at a time when the drive was to save money. As lackluster as some of those comics, particularly "Earth Force", were, it is impressive that Furman held up as well as he did at that point.)
Another problem with the old G1 comics is that they references characters and settings that were not unique to TF, or even owned by Hasbro. The "GI Joe" cross-over are discussed in their own thread (in the "other" forums). But, there are also various cross-overs with Marvel that involved or mentioned Spider-Man, the Dazzler, SHIELD, Godzilla, as well as the Savage Land (and by extension the Avengers and Kree). And, Circuit Breaker's first appearance was in the MU set "Secret Wars II".
Marvel, having no desire to integrate another outside property after the debacle with "Rom and the Space Knights", decided that the TF issue referencing Marvel characters (and arguably Circuit Breaker's scene in "Secret Wars II") were set on an alternate world that all of their inter-company and inter-property crossovers were set on. (This would presumably also include their cross-overs with DC in the 1970s.)
Even discounting the recent Marvel/TF crossover (featuring the Avenbers and IDW's G1 cast), the above described "cross-over Earth" was not Marvel's only alternate universe that included Transformers. The timeline that O6 mentions as being the original home of Death's Head was yet another setting. It was referenced in "Incomplete Death's Head". This was presumably not the same as the above "616+Transformers" universe. (Ironically, in this case, the quick fix of alternate universes actually leads to another problem. The timeline that Death's Head originally hailed from was destroyed and replaced during "Time Wars". Marvel made no mention of this in "Incomplete Death's Head". Arguably, this creates and alternate of an alternate, possibly of yet another alternate.
In contrast, the cartoon never really messed around with alternate timelines. There were references to alternate dimensions (such as the one shown in "The Killing Jar"). But, those did not have alternate sets of characters. They were more "strange places that the characters happened to travel to".
Here is a rough break-down of the G1 comic and arguably alternates.
US issues 1-80: Going strictly by what was published, this series assumes that TFs shared a world with "GI Joe" and a number of 616 Marvel characters. (And, if one approaches this from Marvel's side, there are some DC characters included as well.) There were also several references to UK stories. "Man of Iron" arguably happened in this setting, (though its placement is vague based on what was published in the US). There is direct reference to the Death Bringer (circa "Matrix Quest"), which runs contrary to most of the other UK black and white stories *not* fitting with the US comics. And, Furman urged US readers to seek out and read "Another Time and Place", the last G! story published in the UK annual.
The UK comic is more difficult to parse. Before "Time Wars", most of the discrepencies were reconciled with editorial decrees (stating when a given story happened relative to the dominant US series) and with occassional touch-ups to art (typically adding or removing a character from a given scene). But, even there were discrepencies. The UK comic assumes some Marvel 616 characters and setting, (including a visit to the Savage Land long after its destruction in proper 616 Marvel).
The UK comics did not have "GI Joe". The UK had "Action Force", which had its own deviations from "GI Joe". The UK cross-over between Transformers and Action Force were different from the US cross-overs between the TFs and the Joes. (Though, the UK did later get the first US cross-over, despite it not fitting anywhere in with the UK.) To make matters even more complicated, the only direct refenerence to TFs in "GI Joe" was in the G2 launch several years later. When Devil's Due Publishing took the Joe license, references to the TFs were actively retconned out. (One could argue that this creates yet another alternate. But, it is best to let Joe fans deal with that question.)
Following "Time Wars", (and the presumed destruction of the Marvel UK future timline that O6 mentioned in the "stupid ideas thread"), the UK included shorter black and white strips that were frequently impossible to reconcile with the (still dominant) US comics. While there were some general similarities to the US comic, (and it may have fit better if Furman had more time and/or if the US comic had lasted a bit longer), too many prominent story elements were impossible to reconcile.
Two more prominent "future" timelines were added to the mix. The first effectively replaced the timeline that Death's Head originated from. It depicted a world where the Decepticons were again dominant in the early 21st Century. It included some pre-"Time Wars" elements, such as Unicron being trapped in the Matrix. But, it was clearly a new timeline resulting from the events of "Time Wars". Not long after, in the US comic, an alternate future where Unicron destroyed Cybertron in 2005 was introduced as a way to bring a Galvatron in to the US comic's then current setting of 1991.
Both books ended in 1991, flowing directly in to "Another Time and Place".
Over the years, there have been a number of follow-ups to the original comics.
"Generation 2" was the first. Furman ignored "Another Time and Place" when he picked up G2, and the two are pretty well impossible to reconcile. G2 itself splits off in at least 3 directions.
G2 was launched as part of a second cross-over with "GI Joe". However, after the initial cross-over, G2 and the Joe book ignored each other completely. In "Generation 2", Earth was sieged by 2 armies of belligerent alien robots. At least one city was completely destroyed and there was scattered destruction around the world. The "GI Joe" comic made no reference to this.
If we apply multiversal logic, there are two timelines assumed here. The first assumes that the TFs left earth shortly after the second cross-over and never came back. The second assumes that the TFs came back, as shown in "Generation 2". Finally, the UK G2 comics, begin similarly to the US, but quickly deviated before being cancelled, adding yet a third official variant of G2. (There is also the question of "Allignment". Despite being written by Furman, it is only dubiously official, and is best not considered as such.)
And, it does not stop there.
Fun Publications "Classics" series was assumed to follow up from US issue 80. It largely ignored the UK comics, "Another Time and Place" as well as G2. In fact, it was assumed to have somehow over-written the timeline of "Another Time and Place". The destruction of this timeline (shown in the BotCon 2012 comic) apparently restored the timeline of "Another Time and Place". (Yeah, it is as stupid as it sounds.)
And, IDW's current "ReGeneration 1" series ignores most of the above. Jhiaxus (and presumably the Cybertronian Empire) are referenced, but the events of G2 did not happen.
Dom
-would not mind the idea of a multiverse so much if it were not so often a way to reconcile bad writing and a plot-device for really bad "cosmically awesome" event stories.
(It would probably be easier for everybody to just assume that somebody made a mistake, and to occassionally have an editor hand-wave a set of stories away. But, too many fans are not mature enough for that approach, particularly members of fandoms that have an unwarranted sense of ownership of their hobby.)
About 10 years back, TF had the idea of a multiverse formally introduced as part of the "Universe" line, most forcefully in the comics. Because that was an idea that originated with fans before it became official, and the first official handling of it was in the fan-influenced 3H comics (and later Fun Publications), it became an end unto itself rather than a quick and easy way to reconcile mistakes by writers and editors in-context. At this point, there is an entire classification system that is intended to allow dozens of iterations of TF that were never meant to fit together to fit together. It is also being retro-actively applied to the original G1 series, which had more than its share of sloppy errors.
The G1 comics alone could be used as a justification for a half-dozen or so distinct timelines.
The US comic itself ran for 80 issues. The UK comic ran along side, and often through, the US comics for a comparable amount of time. The issue count was considerably higher owing to a different publishing schedule. That same publishing schedule also required the UK TF book to have additional content. While much of the UK exclusive content could largely stand on its own, some it it required a reader to know about the US content.
Towards the end, the US comic required readers to have some understanding of UK content, (specifically the Death Bringer). Similarly, the UK comic split from the US comic somewhere around US issue 50 or so, (this was circa "Time Wars" in the UK), with the black and white filler stories. (These are often called "Earth Force", though only some of them were properly about Earth Force.) Before this point, the UK content could be reconciled with the US content without too much editorial acrobatics. A few editorial fiats and an occassional touch-up to the odd panel were enough to make things fit. But, shortly before Furman took over both books, they became impossible to reconcile without the assumption of alternate timelines. (Furman has made comments to the effect of admitting that he had difficulty juggling an increasingly hectic schedule at a time when the drive was to save money. As lackluster as some of those comics, particularly "Earth Force", were, it is impressive that Furman held up as well as he did at that point.)
Another problem with the old G1 comics is that they references characters and settings that were not unique to TF, or even owned by Hasbro. The "GI Joe" cross-over are discussed in their own thread (in the "other" forums). But, there are also various cross-overs with Marvel that involved or mentioned Spider-Man, the Dazzler, SHIELD, Godzilla, as well as the Savage Land (and by extension the Avengers and Kree). And, Circuit Breaker's first appearance was in the MU set "Secret Wars II".
Marvel, having no desire to integrate another outside property after the debacle with "Rom and the Space Knights", decided that the TF issue referencing Marvel characters (and arguably Circuit Breaker's scene in "Secret Wars II") were set on an alternate world that all of their inter-company and inter-property crossovers were set on. (This would presumably also include their cross-overs with DC in the 1970s.)
Even discounting the recent Marvel/TF crossover (featuring the Avenbers and IDW's G1 cast), the above described "cross-over Earth" was not Marvel's only alternate universe that included Transformers. The timeline that O6 mentions as being the original home of Death's Head was yet another setting. It was referenced in "Incomplete Death's Head". This was presumably not the same as the above "616+Transformers" universe. (Ironically, in this case, the quick fix of alternate universes actually leads to another problem. The timeline that Death's Head originally hailed from was destroyed and replaced during "Time Wars". Marvel made no mention of this in "Incomplete Death's Head". Arguably, this creates and alternate of an alternate, possibly of yet another alternate.
In contrast, the cartoon never really messed around with alternate timelines. There were references to alternate dimensions (such as the one shown in "The Killing Jar"). But, those did not have alternate sets of characters. They were more "strange places that the characters happened to travel to".
Here is a rough break-down of the G1 comic and arguably alternates.
US issues 1-80: Going strictly by what was published, this series assumes that TFs shared a world with "GI Joe" and a number of 616 Marvel characters. (And, if one approaches this from Marvel's side, there are some DC characters included as well.) There were also several references to UK stories. "Man of Iron" arguably happened in this setting, (though its placement is vague based on what was published in the US). There is direct reference to the Death Bringer (circa "Matrix Quest"), which runs contrary to most of the other UK black and white stories *not* fitting with the US comics. And, Furman urged US readers to seek out and read "Another Time and Place", the last G! story published in the UK annual.
The UK comic is more difficult to parse. Before "Time Wars", most of the discrepencies were reconciled with editorial decrees (stating when a given story happened relative to the dominant US series) and with occassional touch-ups to art (typically adding or removing a character from a given scene). But, even there were discrepencies. The UK comic assumes some Marvel 616 characters and setting, (including a visit to the Savage Land long after its destruction in proper 616 Marvel).
The UK comics did not have "GI Joe". The UK had "Action Force", which had its own deviations from "GI Joe". The UK cross-over between Transformers and Action Force were different from the US cross-overs between the TFs and the Joes. (Though, the UK did later get the first US cross-over, despite it not fitting anywhere in with the UK.) To make matters even more complicated, the only direct refenerence to TFs in "GI Joe" was in the G2 launch several years later. When Devil's Due Publishing took the Joe license, references to the TFs were actively retconned out. (One could argue that this creates yet another alternate. But, it is best to let Joe fans deal with that question.)
Following "Time Wars", (and the presumed destruction of the Marvel UK future timline that O6 mentioned in the "stupid ideas thread"), the UK included shorter black and white strips that were frequently impossible to reconcile with the (still dominant) US comics. While there were some general similarities to the US comic, (and it may have fit better if Furman had more time and/or if the US comic had lasted a bit longer), too many prominent story elements were impossible to reconcile.
Two more prominent "future" timelines were added to the mix. The first effectively replaced the timeline that Death's Head originated from. It depicted a world where the Decepticons were again dominant in the early 21st Century. It included some pre-"Time Wars" elements, such as Unicron being trapped in the Matrix. But, it was clearly a new timeline resulting from the events of "Time Wars". Not long after, in the US comic, an alternate future where Unicron destroyed Cybertron in 2005 was introduced as a way to bring a Galvatron in to the US comic's then current setting of 1991.
Both books ended in 1991, flowing directly in to "Another Time and Place".
Over the years, there have been a number of follow-ups to the original comics.
"Generation 2" was the first. Furman ignored "Another Time and Place" when he picked up G2, and the two are pretty well impossible to reconcile. G2 itself splits off in at least 3 directions.
G2 was launched as part of a second cross-over with "GI Joe". However, after the initial cross-over, G2 and the Joe book ignored each other completely. In "Generation 2", Earth was sieged by 2 armies of belligerent alien robots. At least one city was completely destroyed and there was scattered destruction around the world. The "GI Joe" comic made no reference to this.
If we apply multiversal logic, there are two timelines assumed here. The first assumes that the TFs left earth shortly after the second cross-over and never came back. The second assumes that the TFs came back, as shown in "Generation 2". Finally, the UK G2 comics, begin similarly to the US, but quickly deviated before being cancelled, adding yet a third official variant of G2. (There is also the question of "Allignment". Despite being written by Furman, it is only dubiously official, and is best not considered as such.)
And, it does not stop there.
Fun Publications "Classics" series was assumed to follow up from US issue 80. It largely ignored the UK comics, "Another Time and Place" as well as G2. In fact, it was assumed to have somehow over-written the timeline of "Another Time and Place". The destruction of this timeline (shown in the BotCon 2012 comic) apparently restored the timeline of "Another Time and Place". (Yeah, it is as stupid as it sounds.)
And, IDW's current "ReGeneration 1" series ignores most of the above. Jhiaxus (and presumably the Cybertronian Empire) are referenced, but the events of G2 did not happen.
Dom
-would not mind the idea of a multiverse so much if it were not so often a way to reconcile bad writing and a plot-device for really bad "cosmically awesome" event stories.