TF Procreation

[Mako Crab]

I posted this at the Allspark and had my thread locked within 2 posts. I'll remove the (tongue-in-cheek) crassness, but here's my scattered thoughts on TF reproduction.

We're told in the cartoons and the comics, etc. of all the ways TFs can create new life. Of those ways we have:

1. Creation Matrix program inside Optimus' head.
- Works great as long as you're on Optimus' side. No new Decepticons (unless they chop his head off and steal it, but how often is that going to happen?)

2. Vector Sigma deep inside Cybertron
- Okay, cool, but who's really going to go to the depths of Cybertron every time they need a new 'bot? Not to mention that unless you have the Key to Vector Sgima, or sacrifice a first generation Cybertronian like Alpha Trion, you can't access its life-giving abilities.

3. The Allspark cube
- Except when it goes missing and is then later destroyed. No one's gonna' be using that.

4. Budding
- Works for the G2 empire, but no one else is even aware they can do this. So strike this method.

5. Just build a new robot.
- Seems to work for creating the Dinobots in the G1 toon. But within the context of the show itself, are the Dinobots really considered "alive" since they weren't taken to Vector Sigma? Maybe this is why Prime kept them in a storage closet all the time.

So this is all well and good, but what happens when you have colonies of TFs settling off-world? Colonies like Paradron and all the lost worlds from the Cybertron cartoon? Those colonies wouldn't have access to the Creation Matrix program, the Allspark cube (neither does anyone else!), Vector Sigma, and wouldn't be aware of budding. And you can't tell me that an entire planet teeming with TF life all fit onto one little (or even large) ship. So where did all those new TFs come from?

To be blunt, the Cybertronians as a race must have a means to procreate among themselves without requiring external devices like Vector Sigma or The Cube or whatever. And since budding is a forgotten method, they must have something else.

What that "something else" is, we don't know. I kind of subscribe to the "mingling sparks" theory in which an intimate mingling (not merging) of sparks results in the formation of a new spark. If TFs are going to procreate, I prefer this method for a couple reasons.

* It rejects the idea of robot genitalia.
* It keeps the act of "robot sex" a strictly alien concept that doesn't mimic human behavior.

The concept of robotic procreation gets into some uncomfortable territory though. I'd wager that most fans are repulsed by imagery of pregnant fembots with big bellies.

http://the-gearsmith.deviantart.com/gal ... 4#/d14hm4s

I'm not exactly fond of the idea either. If we're to accept that an infant spark has a gestation period inside the body of a female TF, then we're left with a couple options. Either a body is formed around the new spark and we're left with images like the one by GWX, or an external body is built and the spark later transferred to that, which could incorporate the Dinobots' toon creation without reducing them to the status of self-aware drones.

The problem arises if not everyone knows how to build a new body for the infant spark to be transferred into. I think that's where the main problem lies. I want them to have some kind of means to have ready-made bodies in the event that no one knows how to build a new body. Though, I suppose the whole affair could be a big deal for the whole community, where everyone has to pool together to make a new body. Takes a village to raise a child and all that.

In those terms, I could see how the culture of a peaceful Cybertron might revolve very strongly around the creation of new life. Unless there's no village or no resources to build a new body. So yeah. There's that problem.

Something to be considered though, is that even in G1 we had images of Transformer children. TF:TM establishes the idea of robot children on the planet Lithone (though arguably those robots weren't Cybertronian). Wheelie is often described as a "boy" and now in the IDW comics with issue 31 we see Alpha Trion talking with a group of TF kids.

To Review:
* Male and Female Cybertronians exist
* They have children
* All known external means of procreating are lost to them (VS, Cube, etc.)
* Off-world colonies thrive without such external devices.
* External devices such as VS, Cube, etc. are used only in the absence of females.

The exact means they use to procreate are anyone's guess. Hell, they could lay robo-eggs for all we know (flashbacks of Terrorcon nest in Energon). Anyway, those are my rambling thoughts on the subject. I await the imminent derailment.

[Shockwave]

Well there are a couple of other methods mentioned in later sources that you didn't mention. One is the creation of a new body as seen in the Ironhide mini. Alpha Trion mentions to Ironhide that he built the new body for him as a back up "So that his spark would have somewhere to go". This implies that Sparks are like souls that go "somewhere" when a TF dies but can transfer to a new body instead if one is available. This would be somewhat like Vorta cloning from Deep Space Nine. The other is mentioned in the recent TF Novel Exodus. It's mentioned that Transformers emerge fully constructed from the "Well of Allsparks". Which implies that Cybertron itself was essentially "giving birth" to new Transformers on a continual basis. That is until it was destroyed.

Personally, I like the IDW explanation better that bots can pretty much be built anywhere and the Spark comes from "somewhere" and then goes "somewhere" when they die. It keeps an air of mystery about it which it should. After all, we don't know where our "sparks" come from nor where they go when we die so why would should a race of sentient robots know? I also like the Beast Era explanation as well which is that there's some "Matrix" out there where the sparks orginiate from and return to and it all just sorta happens automatically. I suspect the best theory would probably be mixing the two as the Beast Era explanation has TF sparks as a physical object that needs to be placed rather than an abstract concept that just sorta "happens". The IDW "Just sorta happens" approach wouldn't account for non sentient drones.

I dunno, I guess this is something I'm ok with not having a definite answer on only because we don't even have one for ourselves. And I would probably suspect that the various explanations we've gotten so far could be various TFs philosophies on the subject.

[Gomess]

Ehhhh can't really get away from Real Life on this one, I'm afraid. The only reason there's any gender diversity in TF was to conform to contemporary traditions of gender diversity in the media. So there's boy robots and girl robots, but no sex or babies, 'cos that's too much for kids to handle.

Sooo... for once I really have nothing to add. =[

Except...

I'd wager that most fans are repulsed by imagery of pregnant fembots with big bellies.

...Well, it's not much of a progression from "fembots" with tits and big pouty lips. I'm not too fond of either. =|

Honestly, I grew up with them as *robots*, and... the idea of any kind of organic reproduction just seems forced and often- in stories- pretentious to me.

[Mako Crab]

Well there are a couple of other methods mentioned in later sources that you didn't mention. One is the creation of a new body as seen in the Ironhide mini. Alpha Trion mentions to Ironhide that he built the new body for him as a back up "So that his spark would have somewhere to go". This implies that Sparks are like souls that go "somewhere" when a TF dies but can transfer to a new body instead if one is available. This would be somewhat like Vorta cloning from Deep Space Nine.

I had forgotten about that, but I don't think transferring a spark into a new body is the same as creating a new life. A spark transfer would be more akin to a brain or heart transplant.

The other is mentioned in the recent TF Novel Exodus. It's mentioned that Transformers emerge fully constructed from the "Well of Allsparks". Which implies that Cybertron itself was essentially "giving birth" to new Transformers on a continual basis. That is until it was destroyed.

I was unaware of that method (having not read Exodus), but good to know. The Well of Allsparks, from your description, counts as yet another external means of propagation and is yet another means that is no longer available. And like the off-world colonies, this is yet another means of reproduction that off-worlders can't 't benefit from.

Personally, I like the IDW explanation better that bots can pretty much be built anywhere and the Spark comes from "somewhere" and then goes "somewhere" when they die. It keeps an air of mystery about it which it should. After all, we don't know where our "sparks" come from nor where they go when we die so why would should a race of sentient robots know?

Yeah, spark mingling as a theory does kill the air of mystery surrounding the more mystical elements of Transformers. I do like that their sparks are visible, energy-based objects that can be handled and manipulated like an organ. It keeps them ever-so-slightly in the realm of science fiction instead of science mysticism. I still like the idea that the lasercores of G1 are the same as the sparks of the Beast era and it's only a matter of colorful word-choice that resulted in the change. The G1 era suggests a more analytical, scientific view of the lasercore while the Beast era suggests a more spiritual view.

I dunno, I guess this is something I'm ok with not having a definite answer on only because we don't even have one for ourselves. And I would probably suspect that the various explanations we've gotten so far could be various TFs philosophies on the subject.

In terms of souls, yes, we'll never know. In terms of human reproduction, we've got that down to a science. Spark mingling as a means of procreation isn't without its problems, as you've illustrated, and I'm always open to a better explanation. Right now, it's pretty much just my own personal sketchy idea.

Ehhhh can't really get away from Real Life on this one, I'm afraid. The only reason there's any gender diversity in TF was to conform to contemporary traditions of gender diversity in the media. So there's boy robots and girl robots, but no sex or babies, 'cos that's too much for kids to handle.

The real-world explanations for why there are female robots are well known, but oh-so-boring. If we look to the real-world, all our explanations for why things happen in the show are corporate-driven, money-driven and boring. Why did Dinobot die in his epic last stand in "Code of Hero?" Was it to redeem his past transgressions? Nah, Hasbro just wasn't selling his toy anymore. It's boring.

You do make me think of an interesting point. Only during peace-time do we see Cybertronian children. Any other time an external device is used to bring new TFs to life, it's during war time and the 'bots coming online are fully grown and with adult personalities.

...Well, it's not much of a progression from "fembots" with tits and big pouty lips. I'm not too fond of either. =|

Honestly, I grew up with them as *robots*, and... the idea of any kind of organic reproduction just seems forced and often- in stories- pretentious to me.

If there really were no internal means of reproduction among the TF species, and all their external means were cut off one after the other, this could provide an actual reason why the Oracle of Beast Machines sought to introduce organics to Cybertron. It's one idea, but still doesn't explain the off-world colonies that have populated entire worlds with no problem.

[Shockwave]

The question here seems to be geared more towards what creates "Life" in a TF, not the actual reproduction itself. As you've mentioned, we've seen new TFs built on several occasions so that part is not really the question, it's how do they consistently make them "alive". Yeah, we may know the science of how we reproduce but even we don't know when or how humans become "alive" or what creates that "spark" within us.

[Sparky Prime]

The Marvel UK comics also introduced the Matrix Flame. It was essentially an eternal flame that remained lite so long as the Matrix bearer was alive, but it could also tap into the power of the Matrix to create new Transformers, as it was used to create Ultra Magnus in those comics.

Personally, I've always thought the Transformers should have some method of (re)production that doesn't involve an outside artifact that can be lost and/or destroyed, for exactly that reason. On the other hand, it does have a somewhat unique alien quality for their race compared to our concepts of procreation.

[JediTricks]

Up until the movie series, and now TF Prime, there didn't used to be so much death in Transformers - these things would live for millennia just fighting each other in small skirmishes and getting by, getting repaired battle after battle, but rarely dying - so there generally wouldn't be a need to replenish the race. Each bot can live essentially forever unless they are fully destroyed, trapped in a societal limbo as factions battle for supremacy of philosophy, but as their numbers didn't diminish notably, they didn't need to make more. Thus, the need for individual procreation is a concept fully alien to the Autobots and Decepticons. It also shows why there aren't parental or familial relationships among these characters, with a few rare exceptions that are left vague enough to be chalked up to dramatic flavor.

With that in mind, I'll stick with the idea that Cybertron itself is what birthed these beings before they spread among the stars.

[Onslaught Six]

I've had many many thoughts on this for years. For a long time I was adamant that all you had to do was simply get a new Spark and put it in a body, and you've created a new TF--although how do they get a Spark?

For a while I stayed with the idea that TFs absolutely had to reproduce "sexually" by creating a new Spark between two of them. This was mostly so we could keep having an excuse for TFs to "have sex" so we could offhandedly put in hookerbots to our stories. But I was never concerned with the specific mechanics.

Which do I prefer *now?* I prefer not to think about it, actually. I've never needed a story where a character had to be "born," so it's like...why bother? Every character I could ever need is basically already in existence, and if they aren't, you set it in the future so you can skip over that part. It's not important!

[JediTricks]

I've never been entirely comfortable with the idea of the Spark being a gift from the gods, but I suppose my personal philosophy clouds that as well. I believe that each of us is not predestined, but made by the environment and people in it and later the experiences, that we are preprogrammed only with a few DNA-encoded concepts at birth and the rest we create as we develop, thus for the Transformers it seems even easier - they are things until they create the Spark within them by becoming something more than just mindless machines, by becoming individuals. The cartoon origin for the Dinobots supports this pretty well, they are things and then they are alive (and they are developmentally limited by being locked in the storage closet for a while ).

I think the movie tried to touch upon the idea by saying that the creatures that the AllSpark created when it zapped product-placement items were inherently evil because they had no true souls. I'd argue that the message inherent within that was entirely lost by bad directing and unclear writing, and is conceptually flawed in expression of angry killing machines being the only choice for a soulless newbot.

[BWprowl]

Which do I prefer *now?* I prefer not to think about it, actually. I've never needed a story where a character had to be "born," so it's like...why bother?

Because it’s *interesting* dammit!

Anyway, the issue we keep running into in the consideration of this is just what Sparks *are*. I’ve always been under the impression that they were, like, fragments of Primus’ essence or somesuch. This would imply that there’s a finite amount of the things, unless Sparks can split somehow, and the only case we ever saw of that was Rampage, and not only was that under pretty extreme circumstances, it didn’t result in two new beings until one half was pumped full of a dead guy’s datatrax (Dinobot II). So anyway, this kinda jibes with the ‘Spark dies and returns to circulate in the Matrix until it’s time for it to leave and enter a new body’ line of thinking. Kind of a reincarnation way of working, especially if you presume that sparks don’t fully carry memories from one ‘life’ to another (in fact, until his backstory was cocked up by Binaltech, TMII Prowl supported this pretty strongly, his bio heavily insinuating that he was such a reincarnation of G1 Prowl). Admittedly, this concept doesn’t fully explain how sparks *get* out of the Matrix and into new bodies (although Animated showed that those Autobots keep ‘newborn’ protoform bodies around to shovel fresh sparks from the Well of All Sparks into. And earlier in that series, regarding death, Ratchet referenced ‘joining’ said Well of All Sparks, another point for the reincarnation theory!), and even if we assume they’re coming out via an avenue such as Vector Sigma or the Well, that still doesn’t account for those gosh-durned off-world colonies.

Or does it? I think Sparky mentioned the Creation Matrix. As the Autobots’ Big Holy MacGuffin, it can be seen as and has practically been SHOWN to be one such ‘avenue’ for sparks to come from, regardless of where Prime was when using it. Now move sideways to Cybertron, the off-world-colony-est Transformers series, where each of its colonial worlds had a ‘Prime’ governing it. Now, in TF lore, what does a ‘Prime’ usually carry? A Matrix. Now, it may not be a ‘Matrix’ in the traditional MacGuffin-in-the-chest sense that we think of, but it’s not too far off to imagine that, when those bigass ships left Cybertron, their leaders would have *some* sort of device with them to ensure that last, most crucial connection to Cybertron- an avenue to the Matrix, and a place for fresh sparks to come out in the event that they were needed. Maybe it’s a well-type emplacement on the ships themselves, maybe it’s some sort of device the Prime of each planet safeguards. There’s a slim chance it could even have been the Cyber Planet Keys themselves, considering those were also said to be fragments of Primus’s essence (And crazily enough, remember that in Cybertron, Optimus Prime’s primary key was *shaped like the Matrix of Leadership*).

S’yeah, that’s my thinking on it. Sparks enter and leave the Matrix in a reincarnation-esque cycle, via some avenue like Vector Sigma or the Creation Matrix of Leadership. And any ships that leave Cybertron carrying potential colonies of robots are equipped with a link back to the Matrix, allowing their creator’s essence to birth new sparks to populations, even off-world.