Transformers - ongoing series

[Dominic]

That review is, (to put it bluntly), a childish misreading of the issue.

Yeah, Spike is a xenophobe, (regardless of if you think that the xenophobia is justified). And, yeah, he cut a deal with a member of the species that he wanted to kill/drive off. But, that is not really so bad. There is nothing wrong with using resources on hand, especially if they are going to win a conflict.

The problem, which Costa clearly spelled out in this issue, and previously, is that Spike acted in bad faith and used his position for personal gain and to carry out personal vendettas. The problem was not that he killed Scrapper. The problem was the real reason that he killed Scrapper, especially given the fact the he cut a deal with Prowl that required him to at least try not kill Cybertronians.

One of Spike's virtues, consistently shown since AHM, is that he is intelligent and able to improvise when acquiring and using resources. Working Swindle does not present any moral problems. Going behind the backs of his allies, and acting counter to an agreement he made with them, does present a problem.


Dom
-Costa's biggest sin is pitching too high.

[Sparky Prime]

That review is, (to put it bluntly), a childish misreading of the issue.

Yeah, Spike is a xenophobe, (regardless of if you think that the xenophobia is justified). And, yeah, he cut a deal with a member of the species that he wanted to kill/drive off. But, that is not really so bad. There is nothing wrong with using resources on hand, especially if they are going to win a conflict.

I think Mako Crab makes a really point actually. I don't see how you can call it a misreading at all. Spike goes out of his way to prove he can kill a Transformer by himself and with out any high-tech weapons. That's not using the resources on hand, that's simply all about his personal vendetta against the Transformers and proving to himself he doesn't need the high-tech weapons. Not to mention he was jeopardizing the alliance they'd just made with the Autobots when he killed Scrapper, showing a lack of regard for their new ally's. That makes it really hard to believe he'd have made any sort of a deal with Swindle when clearly he does hate the Transformers that much.

[Mako Crab]

Swindle's involvement came out of nowhere too. No clues, no hints, no real setup for it. A deus ex machina to wrap up the story. This was supposed to be a police story where they dug up clues and solved the mystery, but they didn't give us any. Prowl "suspected" Decepticon involvement and Prowl saw the silhouette of someone acting as Brawl's spotter in #27. I guess that's supposed to be enough to warrant the sudden appearance of Swindle. And I still can't believe that they took the easy way out by making Spike a straight-up criminal. Costa's high-brow ideas give way to simplistic villains. It really seemed like Spike and Prowl were on the brink of some amazing character development with both owning up to their own dirty deeds and dubious morality, but that was all quickly whitewashed in favor of Spike being a through-and-through villain. Yeah, he was never a great guy, but I liked the idea that they were making him an ass that still had a good, human-centric point of view.

So, some quick questions:

1. What does Spike get out of teaming up with Swindle?

2. What does Swindle get out of teaming up with Spike?

3. Was Swindle's teaming with Spike/Skywatch part of Megatron's plan?

4. Because Swindle is apparently responsible for the little Megatron guns, so he must still be in contact with and taking orders from Megs, right?

5. And if so, Megatron allowed Swindle to conduct operations that required the death of Scrapper and the capture of countless other Decepticons?

6. How come the Autobots didn't recognize that the Skywatch mechs were based on Cybertronian tech?

7. How long was Swindle supposed to have been teamed with Spike then? Because Skywatch has their mech suits in issue 1.

[Dominic]

Spike goes out of his way to prove he can kill a Transformer by himself and with out any high-tech weapons.

The point is that Spike is a thug. He is good at killing things. He wants to kill TFs for personal reasons, and he wants to do it his way. And, depending on his mood, he is willing to use Cybertronian tech, other Cybertronians themselves, or simple brute force (and vials of really strong acid) to do it.

And I still can't believe that they took the easy way out by making Spike a straight-up criminal. Costa's high-brow ideas give way to simplistic villains.

Swindle has been a major player since issue 4. Swindle was the guy who was smart enough to work the post-war setting. Costa had this planned.

And, how is Spike, or for that matter Swindle, simplistic? He is not all bad. Given the post AHM setting, is it really so bad to be killing Transformers? Spike is legitimately clever and skilled at his job. He may not be completely trustwothy, but who the hell cares. That just means he needs to be watched. It does not make him all bad.

Costa did not white-wash anything. He just did not bother to belabour the Kup story from "Coda".

1. What does Spike get out of teaming up with Swindle?

2. What does Swindle get out of teaming up with Spike?

3. Was Swindle's teaming with Spike/Skywatch part of Megatron's plan?

4. Because Swindle is apparently responsible for the little Megatron guns, so he must still be in contact with and taking orders from Megs, right?

5. And if so, Megatron allowed Swindle to conduct operations that required the death of Scrapper and the capture of countless other Decepticons?

6. How come the Autobots didn't recognize that the Skywatch mechs were based on Cybertronian tech?

7. How long was Swindle supposed to have been teamed with Spike then? Because Skywatch has their mech suits in issue 1.

-1. Spike gets access to technology. That is pretty straightforward.
-2: Swindle gets money/energon/whatever. Also pretty straight forward. (He would rather buy his lunch than fight for it. This makes perfect sense.)

-3-4: Swindle was a free agent. Megatron dumped a pile of high tech weapons, and Swindle got himself in on it, not unlike that guy they showed in issue...8(?) who found work collecting and selling the Megatron bits. Megatron knew that somebody would end up distributing the guns once they were discovered. It did not matter who was doing it.

-5: Megatron was not micromanaging. Scrapper's death would not be any easier to anticipate than any other death. Shit happens. Megatron would likely not care.

-6: Actually the Autobots did recognize the suits being Cybertronian tech. it was either in the first arc or the Prowl one-shot. I cannot recall.

-7: I am pretty sure that Swindle went in to action about 5 seconds after AHM ended.


Dom
-just saying that Costa uses a similar style on "Cobra" and that GI Joe fans are okay with it.

[Onslaught Six]

I'll actually say this, I *have* seen a lot of praise for Costa's writing on the Joe book. From Joe fans. The guys who say that anyone other than Larry Hama writing the book is heresy.

Also, this thread is classic Dom. "Objectively, what Spike did is not all that bad. And, those children were annoying anyway."

[BWprowl]

Mako, I think I’m seeing what your issue is here, but I’m not really sure why you have it. You seem to be honing in on that Spike is automatically a ‘bad guy’ because he cut a deal with Swindle, and I’m not seeing the logic behind that one. You yourself acknowledge that Spike’s actions as far as murdering Scrapper and keeping the Autobots in the dark about it were morally ambiguous at worst, so why does doing business with Swindle immediately qualify as evil? Because Swindle’s a Decepticon? Whoop de doo. Ignoring that Spike barely differentiates between the two factions to begin with, it’s not like he was working with Swindle integrated into Skywatch in a secret mission to kill all the Autobots and let the Decepticons go free or something; dude just bought some tech off of the most convenient resource available. I guarantee you Spike had every intention of using Swindle’s own merchandise to kill the guy sooner or later. Spike didn’t cut a deal with Swindle because he thinks Megatron is awesome and wants evil to rule the galaxy, he did it because he distrusts and fears all Cybertronians and wants every edge he can prove he can get against them, which has been the founding point of his character from day one. Buying some spare parts from Swindle doesn’t make Spike a ‘bad guy’ any more than taking out Scrapper did.

[Onslaught Six]

so why does doing business with Swindle immediately qualify as evil? Because Swindle’s a Decepticon? Whoop de doo.

Bingo. The faction lines really started to get blurred about when Megatron died. Remember Prowl saving Breakdown?

[Dominic]

I would have to disagree with Prowl.

Killing Scrapper was out of order. Spike's postiion obligates him to act in a professional way, not carry out personal vendettas. His killing of Scrapper was personal, with the practical outcomes being a nice justification for something he probably would have done anyway.


Dom
-figures Spike bought the vial of acid from Swindle as well.

[Mako Crab]

Buying some spare parts from Swindle doesn’t make Spike a ‘bad guy’ any more than taking out Scrapper did.

Maybe I'm missing something. All I have to go on really is the synopsis on the TF wiki. But from what I read, the moment everyone found out that Spike was buying weapons/tech off of Swindle, Spike went on the run and was labeled as a fugitive from that point on. It *sounds* like they turned him into a simple villain.

To be fair (and because even I get sick of listening to myself gripe sometimes), I did hear people say that Swindle's interaction with Magnus was really good.

[Dominic]

Wow, the wiki is posting summaries based on their childish misreading? Please Crab, tell me that a wiki that is run by a bunch of self-indulgent man-children is not driving your comic buying decisions?

Spike went on the run because Jazz cut the media in on what Spike did.


Dom
-maybe there were not enough pictures to clue in Willis and his boys?