All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

[andersonh1]

Funny how you make the claim "When the landscape of war changes, change strategy to adapt. It makes perfect sense." Yet in this situation you refuse to accept exactly that?

I'm not the one saying the six-phase plan is sacrosanct. No, I'm just pointing out that Megatron did, in fact, abandon the planned strategy, and he did it before McCarthy became the writer for the main book.

Yes, normally Sixshot would only be called in once the planet had already been weakened by their own infighting, but Megatron's real target by deploying him was to get rid of the Autobots by any means necessary, not the humans.

That was why he was called in, yes. Since Prime called in reinforcements, Megatron decided to do the same. However if you read the first issue of Devastation, Megatron plainly states that the phases don't really matter any more, and he's beyond caring.

But do you really think that Megatron would have stopped with the Autobots? Having broken protocol, would he have returned to it once the Autobots were gone? Think about the broader implications here. Once word got out that Ore-13 was available on Earth, and that it offered perhaps a way to decisively win the war, both sides would begin going to Earth en masse. Time was of the essence, and Megatron intended to quickly take control of the Ore-13. There was no way he was going back to the slow, steady, process. He had altered his strategy, and he would have seen the new course through to the end.

That's the thing, if you're going to systematically attack a planet, you don't start with a "symbolic" destruction of just one city. The strategic thing to do is hit lines of communication and sites of government leadership across the globe first. Heck, that would even be more symbolic than attacking just New York.

I hesitate to drag serious, real world events into this, but the terrorists hit New York on 9/11 precisely because of the symbolic value. That may have informed McCarthy's thinking when writing the plot of AHM. I don't know.

But in any case, the Decepticons attacked the city and fortified it as a base and a fortress from which to launch further attacks. And they were pretty successful at destroying pretty much everything thrown at them by the human military. You can argue Megatron's tactics all you want, but it's hard to argue with success, and he was very successful.

As for energy, while the Decepticons may not have much trouble fighting against humans, but they are still spending more energy doing all the work themselves than if they'd stuck to the Infiltration Protocols. You need to look at the bigger picture here. Even if they have the resources to successfully take the Earth, what is their long term projections on fuel?

This goes back to what I said above. At least while the Ore-13 was a consideration, time was certainly a factor. They'd want to protect that resource by taking control of it as quickly as possible. Since that wasn't a part of AHM, we then have to go with the fact that Megatron wanted to keep his soldiers busy, and fighting the humans was the way he chose to go about that. With the Autobots gone, all they needed to do was achieve a few quick wins, and the resources of North America were theirs for the taking. Conservation wasn't necessary in the way that it had been before the decisive victory against the Autobots.

Again, Sixshot wasn't sent to attack the whole planet, he was sent after just the Autobots.

Yes, but there's no way it would have stopped there, for all the reasons I've listed above.

It's possible the Decepticons could have returned to their Infiltration Protocols after that, despite the news of the Transformers existence getting out as a result. It'd be more difficult, but with how covert the operation is, still possible.

Time wasn't on their side. They needed to take control of Earth and the precious Ore-13 as quickly as possible.

And yes, the others were actually concerned the procedure was being violated. Thundercracker even made the comment "A whole lot of careful, by-the-numbers strategy is about to just fall apart!" They thought Megatron was loosing it for calling in Sixshot early.

Yes, they were concerned, but I still think it had more to do with the implications of the procedure being violated, rather than a concern for the process. And as you rightly point out, one of those implications was concern about how stable Megatron was, and what that might mean for their own personal future.

[Sparky Prime]

I'm not the one saying the six-phase plan is sacrosanct. No, I'm just pointing out that Megatron did, in fact, abandon the planned strategy, and he did it before McCarthy became the writer for the main book.

I just don't see that Megatron abandoned the strategy when he called in Sixshot. Sure, he left the normal strategy, but it was still sort of a part of the 6 phases.

That was why he was called in, yes. Since Prime called in reinforcements, Megatron decided to do the same. However if you read the first issue of Devastation, Megatron plainly states that the phases don't really matter any more, and he's beyond caring.

Megatron didn't just call in reinforcements, he called in someone to endgame with the Autobots. That's how badly he wanted that energon.

But do you really think that Megatron would have stopped with the Autobots? Having broken protocol, would he have returned to it once the Autobots were gone? Think about the broader implications here. Once word got out that Ore-13 was available on Earth, and that it offered perhaps a way to decisively win the war, both sides would begin going to Earth en masse. Time was of the essence, and Megatron intended to quickly take control of the Ore-13. There was no way he was going back to the slow, steady, process. He had altered his strategy, and he would have seen it through to the end.

You're forgetting there was a 1 year gap between Devastation and AHM. Clearly Megatron was in no hurry to conquer the planet if he could afford to wait an entire year before getting back to it.

I hesitate to drag serious, real world events into this, but the terrorists hit New York on 9/11 precisely because of the symbolic value. That may have informed McCarthy's thinking when writing the plot of AHM. I don't know.

The terrorists didn't just hit the World Trade Center on 9/11 though did they? No, they also hit the Pentagon and they think the last plane was to supposed to hit the White House, had the passengers not gotten control to crash it into a field.

But in any case, the Decepticons attacked the city and fortified it as a base and a fortress from which to launch further attacks. And they were pretty successful at destroying pretty much everything thrown at them by the human military. You can argue Megatron's tactics all you want, but it's hard to argue with success, and he was very successful.

His short term success perhaps. In the long term however, he kinda dropped the ball there didn't he?

This goes back to what I said above. At least while the Ore-13 was a consideration, time was certainly a factor. They'd want to protect that resource by taking control of it as quickly as possible. Since that wasn't a part of AHM, we then have to go with the fact that Megatron wanted to keep his soldiers busy, and fighting the humans was the way he chose to go about that. With the Autobots gone, all they needed to do was achieve a few quick wins, and the resources of North America were theirs for the taking. Conservation wasn't necessary in the way that it had been before the decisive victory against the Autobots.

Again, you're forgetting about the year gap. Time wasn't a consideration at all. And energy conservation is always a concern when you're in an energy crisis, using artificial fuels to substitute for the real thing.

Yes, but there's no way it would have stopped there, for all the reasons I've listed above.

Time wasn't on their side. They needed to take control of Earth and the precious Ore-13 as quickly as possible.

But they did stop there. And, yet again, they left the Earth alone for an entire year. They had plenty of time.

Yes, they were concerned, but I still think it had more to do with the implications of the procedure being violated, rather than a concern for the process. And as you rightly point out, one of those implications was concern about how stable Megatron was, and what that might mean for their own personal future.

I don't see any evidence that they were concerned over the implications. As I already pointed out, they show concern for the process, and their leader for not sticking to it.

[andersonh1]

I've certainly got to give you that one year gap. I had forgotten that, actually.

How much of the Ore-13 did the Dead Universe Transformers use? Did Revelations ever get specific about that? I wonder how that figures into the situation... maybe I need to go re-read Revelations and see.

[Dominic]

The terrorists didn't just hit the World Trade Center on 9/11 though did they? No, they also hit the Pentagon and they think the last plane was to supposed to hit the White House, had the passengers not gotten control to crash it into a field.

The White House and Pentagon are high profile buildings with symbolic value as well.

Look how much blood and treasure are squandered over Jerusalem. The city's main value is....what exactly? Oh yes, mythology and symbolism.

[Gomess]

War is almost *entirely* about trophies. Until absolute victory is declared, and then it's about securing resources. Trophies are the means; resources are the goal.

If war wasn't purely symbolic, the generals would be at the front of their armies, instead of the back. Thank you, won't you?

[Dominic]

"War is policy by other means." -Clausewitz.

War is not entirely symbolic. Wars that are intended to secure or expand one's interests or resources are practical in nature. Symbolic elements, such as trophy taking, are meant to motivate troops and maintain enthusiasm among one's population.

Dom

[Gomess]

Wars that are intended to secure or expand one's interests or resources are practical in nature. Symbolic elements, such as trophy taking, are meant to motivate troops and maintain enthusiasm among one's population.

You're right, wars aren't purely symbolic. The strategy behind most wars is practical, but often predicated on trophy-taking. But what I meant to say is that the *fighting itself* is symbolic; a government throws as many armed people as it can at another until one of them gives up. It's not a duel between individuals to determine who is truly deserving of something, but a method of reducing the opponent's morale over time. "All wars are wars of attrition."

Essentially, trophy-taking is a win-win method of ensuring victory, which then realises the ultimate goal of securing resources. Like I said; trophies are the means, resources are the end, no? Now and then, it appears that the goal of a war is symbolic, like say, Jerusalem... But let's be honest, that war hasn't been about religion in a long time. Same for the IRA's recent activities. Otherwise there wouldn't be a Real IRA.

*Forgot how we got onto this topic, and wishes he hadn't read Romance of the Three Kingdoms recently*

Gosh but I'm a rambler.

[Dominic]

"All wars are wars of attrition."

We may be defining symbolism differently. I would argue that attrition is a (practical) goal of the fighting, (breaking the bodies and will of one's oppnonent), and the means to achieving the goal of the war. It is less a symbol than a simply component of the fighting.

Now and then, it appears that the goal of a war is symbolic, like say, Jerusalem... But let's be honest, that war hasn't been about religion in a long time. Same for the IRA's recent activities. Otherwise there wouldn't be a Real IRA.

By this logic, no wars are really about religion though. Most wars have a practical component. But, practicality does not motivate the masses as well as....a fight for faith and morality.

Jerusalem is a geo-political abortion, pure and simple.

*Forgot how we got onto this topic, and wishes he hadn't read Romance of the Three Kingdoms recently*

We were arguing the idea of fighting over the Matrix as a nice little trophy, rather than a McGuffin.

[Gomess]

I always remember being really confused- and partly annoyed- at portrayals of Decepticons questing after the Matrix, post-movie. Even Galvatron's inexplicable and sudden desire for the Decepticon Matrix of Leadership (yes, I know, he was "mad" blah blah- it still presents the idea of a Decepticon leader wanting the Matrix as reasonable).

All we- and presumably the Decepticons- knew about the Matrix at that point was that it was the only thing capable of killing Unicron. Who was now dead. Megatron clearly didn't give a toss about getting it (I know, it wasn't invented until the movie, but even THEN it didn't come into his duel with Prime). And yet, writers came out of the woodwork with stories about the Matrix being a source of Real Ultimate Power (TM). Why? What does the bloody thing DO?

The reason it's called the Matrix of *Leadership* in the cartoon- and by extension, most- continuities is because that's all it was. A program to prove who the leader of the Autobots was, and let them confer with their predecessors. In Marvel's G1 comics, it was called the Creation Matrix, because it was used to give Transformers life-- a purpose served by Vector Sigma in the cartoon.

I don't know what IDW is planning, and frankly I don't believe they ARE really planning anything (I've worked with writers in the industry, and editorial mandate IS as much of a Thing as we all think it is), but you can't honestly believe Megs wants to become Megatronimus Prime. Unless IDW are using the Matrix as a life-giving artefact, like Marvel's stuff, then the *only* reason for stealing it is to throw the Autobots into disarray.

[Dominic]

By season 3, it was also known that the Matrix could "upgrade" a user. That would give Galvatron a perfectly good reason for wanting it.

IDW is not binding itself to the old comics and cartoon. They can define the Matrix as they please. Poking the Autobots in the eye with s sharp stick would be reason in and of itself to grab the Matrix.