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Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:21 am
by andersonh1
JediTricks wrote:and I wonder if they're going to reinstate history by
Spoiler
undoing Brainstorm's attack via sacrificing another point-one-percenter's spark into Megatron's body (and my guess would definitely be Rung, since he's the only other .1-percenter on the team and it would blow fans' minds and cause major uproar. I'd love it though, it'd be crazy in the right way). It'd explain why Megatron was shown with the wrong-colored spark in this issue.
How would that work? Isn't the spark still the equivalent of the soul for a Transformer? So
Spoiler
if Megatron's spark is removed and replaced by Rung's spark, then wouldn't that make the evil Decepticon dictator of the past four million years Rung in Megatron's body? Megatron would be dead.
That would certainly troll the fans.

I know Roberts made things a bit more complicated with the Rossum's trinity idea, making the spark, brain module and transformation cog interlinked, but I was under the impression that the spark is still the most vital core component that gives life to a Transformer. The spark IS a Transformer, with the physical body being a vessel to hold it.

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:42 am
by Sparky Prime
Besides that, I think Roberts still has plans
Spoiler
for Rung. He's built up this mystery of what his alt mode is that nobody has been able to figure out what it is or does. I'm thinking that'll somehow play into the plot eventually.

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:51 pm
by BWprowl
Sparky Prime wrote:Besides that, I think Roberts still has plans
Spoiler
for Rung. He's built up this mystery of what his alt mode is that nobody has been able to figure out what it is or does. I'm thinking that'll somehow play into the plot eventually.
It literally doesn't have a purpose. That's the entire point. It's a shape that doesn't serve a function, flying in the face of functionalist philosophy (and people who enjoy TFs for their cool transformations and alt-modes). To suddenly reveal that Rung's altmode DID have a function would be to backtrack and validate everything the Functionalists espoused, thus undoing the majority of Roberts' point on this book.

Per Roberts, some Transformers' altmodes just don't have a purpose, so hey, you might as well never have them transform and just leave them up displayed in Robot Mode forever and ever. Hell, why even have the toys transform? They'd make much better action figures without that annoying intrusive gimmick getting in the way of representing the characters.

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:26 pm
by Sparky Prime
BWprowl wrote:It literally doesn't have a purpose. That's the entire point. It's a shape that doesn't serve a function, flying in the face of functionalist philosophy (and people who enjoy TFs for their cool transformations and alt-modes). To suddenly reveal that Rung's altmode DID have a function would be to backtrack and validate everything the Functionalists espoused, thus undoing the majority of Roberts' point on this book.

Per Roberts, some Transformers' altmodes just don't have a purpose, so hey, you might as well never have them transform and just leave them up displayed in Robot Mode forever and ever. Hell, why even have the toys transform? They'd make much better action figures without that annoying intrusive gimmick getting in the way of representing the characters.
It doesn't serve a function that the Transformers have been able to figure out, but that doesn't mean there isn't a purpose that has yet to be revealed. And I'd disagree that it would validate the Functionalists and undo Roberts point if he revealed it to serve a function. The point Roberts makes in opposition to the Functionalists credence of form and function is simply that a Transformer should be allowed to pursue their own interests regardless of whatever their alt mode is and does. Besides, not being able to figure out the purpose of an alt mode isn't the only thing that gave the Functionalists a headache, as Roberts also pointed out with 'Outliers', Transformers with special abilities that has nothing to do with what their altmode is.

And again, the book is not saying that transforming is a bad thing in the least.

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:31 pm
by JediTricks
Sparky, just let it go, there's no getting through to him on this, he's made up his mind and lets his incorrect presumptions create a whole world-script.

"Forget it, Jake. It's the internet."


As for Rung's altmode, it could be a red herring or just one of those things - "I turn into something that isn't useful without a former partner" type of situations. I just chalk it up to the richer universe that Roberts has turned Transformers into, where these people are now defined by who they are instead of only what they do.

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:58 pm
by BWprowl
Sparky Prime wrote:It doesn't serve a function that the Transformers have been able to figure out, but that doesn't mean there isn't a purpose that has yet to be revealed. And I'd disagree that it would validate the Functionalists and undo Roberts point if he revealed it to serve a function. The point Roberts makes in opposition to the Functionalists credence of form and function is simply that a Transformer should be allowed to pursue their own interests regardless of whatever their alt mode is and does.
How would Rung finding out his altmode had a function not fly in the face of that? Especially as you're predicting here, where it would be some sort of big reveal that would potentially be majorly plot important? "Yeah Rung, we know you liked being a psychiatrist and that's what you wanted to do with your life, but it turns out that your altmode has a function that has dictated your destiny for you in the current plot-line, so that's what you have to do now. Cheers!" Having Rung be made to serve some purpose in the story based on whatever his altmode does would be basically the same thing as Megatron having to be a miner because he turned into a mining vehicle (save for the fact that we might actually SEE Rung use his altmode).

There's really no remaining 'mystery' to Rung's altmode, it was what it was: He turns into something pointless and stupid. Geddit, because Roberts thinks altmodes are pointless and stupid? Haha.
Besides, not being able to figure out the purpose of an alt mode isn't the only thing that gave the Functionalists a headache, as Roberts also pointed out with 'Outliers', Transformers with special abilities that has nothing to do with what their altmode is.
Just another on Roberts's list of arguments that "TFs are fine without altmodes and would probably be better off getting rid of them altogether".
And again, the book is not saying that transforming is a bad thing in the least.
Do you mean, like, except for all the parts where it is saying that? Because if you take out all of those, sure, it isn't saying that at all!

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:13 pm
by Sparky Prime
BWprowl wrote:How would Rung finding out his altmode had a function not fly in the face of that?
The question is how would it? What difference would it make for the Transformers figuring out what one more altmode does? Would that mean Rung couldn't be a psychiatrist anymore? Under the Functionalists perhaps, but post war, they're gone and he's free to persue any job he wants regardless of his atlmode's possible function.
(save for the fact that we might actually SEE Rung use his altmode).
We have seen him use his altmode during the Dark Cybertron storyline, and Nightbeat studying a hologram of it.
There's really no remaining 'mystery' to Rung's altmode, it was what it was: He turns into something pointless and stupid. Geddit, because Roberts thinks altmodes are pointless and stupid? Haha.
I don't believe that's true in the least. Otherwise why bother having the characters in the book trying to figure out what his altmode does, creating the mystery of what it is or does? I think Roberts will address that at some point, because he doesn't think they're pointless and stupid like you believe.
Just another on Roberts's list of arguments that "TFs are fine without altmodes and would probably be better off getting rid of them altogether".
How do you even get to that conclusion? He's expanding on something that has been around since G1.
Do you mean, like, except for all the parts where it is saying that?
You mean the parts where you're going out of your way to misread it?
JediTricks wrote:Sparky, just let it go, there's no getting through to him on this he's made up his mind and let's his incorrect presumptions create a whole world-script.
Yeah, it certainly looks that way.

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:07 am
by BWprowl
Sparky Prime wrote:The question is how would it? What difference would it make for the Transformers figuring out what one more altmode does? Would that mean Rung couldn't be a psychiatrist anymore? Under the Functionalists perhaps, but post war, they're gone and he's free to persue any job he wants regardless of his atlmode's possible function.
The core tenet of Functionalism is the 'every shape serves a purpose' creed. The idea that whatever a TF turns into HAS to be used for something and that is what they are MEANT to do. Rung's altmode pointedly contradicts that concept by being literally useless and having nothing to do with what he does for a living. It's one big black mark against the entire disliked institution of Functionalism. That's the whole point: Rung's very existence proves the 'bad guys' wrong. So to reveal, later down the line, that not only does Rung's altmode actually DO something, but that it's some huge, story-important, destined-sort-of-thing, that THAT is what he was meant to do instead, would contradict that previous point. Rung's altmode WAS useful for something, it WAS what he was 'meant' to do at some point in his existence, and the Functionalists were totally right about altmodes and how they define TFs.

Rung's altmode has to stay pointless, because Roberts proves himself wrong otherwise.
I don't believe that's true in the least. Otherwise why bother having the characters in the book trying to figure out what his altmode does, creating the mystery of what it is or does? I think Roberts will address that at some point, because he doesn't think they're pointless and stupid like you believe.
It was a single-issue story of them trying to figure out what he transformed into, with the 'reveal' being that it was a pointless trinket that undermined the Functionalist philosophy and indeed, the entire concept of assessing TFs based on their altmode. That whole story is loaded with the sort of allegory I've been talking about: The crew-members desperately wanting to see what Rung turns into are fans like me, heavily interested in the characters' altmode because they think it's a major defining point (recall the way I've been annoyed that we haven't seen Megatron's altmode yet). In the end, they're shown that caring about what a TF turns into is pointless and stupid, and the philosophy of caring about it is wrong-minded. The whole thing is Roberts blatantly saying, "Hey readers, quit caring about what TFs turn into!". The cover of that issue is Swerve playing with a literal Rung action figure, trying to figure out what the toy turns into. The subtext is about as blatant as it can get.
How do you even get to that conclusion? He's expanding on something that has been around since G1.
He's applying it in a way that suits his overall philosophy. "Transformations were never cool, even in G1, the Special Powers some guys had were more interesting and integral to their characters". Like everything else, it's an exercise in undermining the application of Transformation to the definition of the characters, due to his underlying resentment of the concept.
You mean the parts where you're going out of your way to misread it?
Where can I be misreading it? It's right there on the page! There are literal whole pages of text that are just Megatron going "Transformation is stupid and limits us". There are many times where characters are specifically griping about jerks wanting to see them transform, or being forced to transform or use their altmodes. What could all of this possibly mean if not "Transformation is bad and people who like it are jerks"?

At this point I'm presuming that Megatron's new body is going to be revealed to be a monoformer, and he simply doesn't have an altmode. That'd be a great bitch-slap from Roberts. "Hey, here's this cool-looking new body for Megatron, given to him for a major, interesting shift in his characterization, and it doesn't even DO anything! Take that, fanboys!"

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:21 am
by andersonh1
Sparky Prime wrote:The question is how would it? What difference would it make for the Transformers figuring out what one more altmode does? Would that mean Rung couldn't be a psychiatrist anymore? Under the Functionalists perhaps, but post war, they're gone and he's free to persue any job he wants regardless of his atlmode's possible function.
Honest question: why is this type of plotline of any interest whatsoever? It sounds like the dryest, most academic and boring of subject matter. "The artificial prejudices of fictional alien races".

And the idea that no one can figure out what Rung's alt mode does makes no sense. Created physical objects don't generally exist for the sake of it. They were created with a purpose in mind, and the form of the object will give indications of its function. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. I always took the question of Rung's alt mode as a running gag rather than anything truly significant.

Re: More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:52 am
by BWprowl
andersonh1 wrote:Honest question: why is this type of plotline of any interest whatsoever? It sounds like the dryest, most academic and boring of subject matter. "The artificial prejudices of fictional alien races".
The contemptuous attitude the story displays towards fans like me aside, I have to admit it's a more interesting storyline than "Optimus shoots Megatron in the face for the umpteenth time".
And the idea that no one can figure out what Rung's alt mode does makes no sense. Created physical objects don't generally exist for the sake of it. They were created with a purpose in mind, and the form of the object will give indications of its function. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. I always took the question of Rung's alt mode as a running gag rather than anything truly significant.
Are TFs altmodes (in this case) 'created physical objects' though? Roberts seems to be running with the idea that TFs altmodes, at least as they have them at the outset, are 'naturally occurring' to whatever body they're brought online in, and those altmodes are then assessed and determined what they are 'good for' to lead to whatever line of work they wind up in. Hence the mountains of characters griping that they didn't have a choice as to what altmode they ended up with, or even Rung himself not being able to come up with a definition for his altmode. Granted, this willfully ignores that we've seen TFs change their altmodes at will a bunch of times in this continuity, along with the question of how they're creating bodies in the first place without knowing what they all turn into and what they do, but when has Roberts ever let a little thing like previously-established canon stand in his way?