All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

[Dominic]

There is a difference between caring about image, in terms of how others see you, and caring about living completely by that image.

Sunstreaker would not want to be seen as "genocide guy", even if he could live with it.

Dom
-gave up when "Mega Man" started jumping systems.

[Sparky Prime]

There is a difference between caring about image, in terms of how others see you, and caring about living completely by that image.

Sunstreaker would not want to be seen as "genocide guy", even if he could live with it.

Perhaps, but again, you need to look at this from Sunstreaker's point of view. Does he just care about the image or does he want to live by that image? Seems to me from the flashback in AHM #14, he loved being the hero and doing heroic things, not just the image of others seeing him as a hero.

And why doesn't he want to be seen as the "genocide guy"? Because one way or another, he does care about what he's done and how others see him based on said actions.

-gave up when "Mega Man" started jumping systems.

That's why the X Collection is so great. 6 games (7 if you count the unlockable racing thing) all on one disk for Gamecube and PS2.

[Dominic]

You bought the games when they were old. If you got them when they were new, you would have had to jump systems as they came out. That, combined with the fact that the games lost focus at about the same time, was enough to make me give up on "Mega Man".

Perhaps, but again, you need to look at this from Sunstreaker's point of view. Does he just care about the image or does he want to live by that image? Seems to me from the flashback in AHM #14, he loved being the hero and doing heroic things, not just the image of others seeing him as a hero.

And why doesn't he want to be seen as the "genocide guy"? Because one way or another, he does care about what he's done and how others see him based on said actions.

The thing is that Sunstreaker may not see anything particularly non-heroic about wanting humans dead. But, he knows that if his thoughts on this become public, his heroic image will be tarnished. Sunstreaker has no problem with people dying because of him, but he does not want to listen to others gripe about it.


Dom
-this makes perfect sense.

[Shockwave]

He definately cared about what he was doing because he went to the trouble of doing it to begin with. But I don't think he had any guilt or felt bad about attempting genocide until he realized that he had sold the Autobots out. Selling out humans he was ok with, his fellow Autobots, not so much. He has no trouble selling out the humans, but needed to cover it up as he knew the other Autobots wouldn't approve. As for why he'd still fight with the Autobots, he can belong to the faction while not necessarily subscribing to ALL of their ideals. I suspect he does subscribe to most of them, just not that particular one. Alternatively, it might also be that he doesn't necessarily agree with the Autobots, he just hates the Decepticons that much more (although this would be more consistent with Grimlock, not Sunstreaker).

[andersonh1]

It's also entirely possible that Sunstreaker would not normally feel that it was morally acceptable to kill the humans, even if he didn't think much of them. But given his humiliating experiences which shamed and angered him, and given Starscream's probing statements that were the result of Bombshell's coaching, it may simply have been a case of Sunstreaker giving in to a desire for revenge in a moment of weakness. He later tells Ironhide that he tried to justify his actions to himself by telling himself that it was worth it to kill Megatron and win the war, but the fact that he needed to find a justification is telling. He ultimately knew it was wrong, even if it took the beating of Mirage to finally make him crack and confess.

What is the bottom line here, Sparky? Is your position essentially that there's no way that Sunstreaker would ever have agreed to the deal with Starscream and to the killing of all the humans? Under any circumstances? If so, that would certainly undermine the entire story, since everything that happens is predicated on the dissection of Hunter by Bombshell and the deal between Sunstreaker and Starscream.

[Dominic]

I initially forgot, but Sparky is right on one thing. During his confession, Sunstreaker actually does say that he could not do "it" (the big G) himeself.

Of course, there is still the question of if it is okay if somebody else does it. For example, Heinrich Himmler was conceptually okay with Naziism and genocide, but he did not like being around for the deed itself. Sunstreaker may have had a similar outlook.


Dom
-would have been bothered by the Mirage beating as well.

[Sparky Prime]

You bought the games when they were old. If you got them when they were new, you would have had to jump systems as they came out. That, combined with the fact that the games lost focus at about the same time, was enough to make me give up on "Mega Man".

When the games first came out, it paid to have friends who had different systems. It was never a problem for me that they jumped systems. The Collection just makes it easier to own the majority of them all on one system. And I dunno how you can say they lost focus around that time. X4-5 really solidified Zero's story and explained why so many Reploids became Mavericks in the first place. X6 (the 3rd game after the jump) is where things break down given X5 was supposed to be the last one, leading into the Zero series spin off.

The thing is that Sunstreaker may not see anything particularly non-heroic about wanting humans dead. But, he knows that if his thoughts on this become public, his heroic image will be tarnished. Sunstreaker has no problem with people dying because of him, but he does not want to listen to others gripe about it.

Or perhaps Sunstreaker was letting his trauma caused by Machination blind him to the atrocities he was committing, which would explain how he could sell out the Autobots like that. Or maybe even the Decepticons manipulations of Hunter had something to do with it. Either way, it seem clear Sunstreaker wasn't thinking clearly when he made the decision that resulted in a betrayal of the Autobots. If that much is true, it can just as easily be inferred that he wasn't thinking that he was sentencing an entire planet's population to die.

Plus, I don't think he's as callous about others dying because of him as you make it seem. Again, he did show concern for Hunter's well being before he became a Headmaster.


-This too makes perfect sense.

[Dominic]

Or perhaps Sunstreaker was letting his trauma caused by Machination blind him to the atrocities he was committing, which would explain how he could sell out the Autobots like that.

Keep in mind, betraying the Autobots was never his plan. Sunstreaker was sloppy on this front of course, (I agree with you that trusting Starscream to just do the right thing is wrong. Heck, Starscream did not even deliver on the "kill all the people" thing.)

Sunstreaker was short-sighted, (a sociopathic trait), in assuming the Autobots would come through it okay. But, he never *wanted* them to get hurt. He never saw it as a question of selling them out, as he assumed, (albeit unwisely), that no real harm would come to them.


Dom
-would probably be smarter about dealing with Starscream.

[Onslaught Six]

You bought the games when they were old. If you got them when they were new, you would have had to jump systems as they came out. That, combined with the fact that the games lost focus at about the same time, was enough to make me give up on "Mega Man".

When the games first came out, it paid to have friends who had different systems. It was never a problem for me that they jumped systems. The Collection just makes it easier to own the majority of them all on one system. And I dunno how you can say they lost focus around that time. X4-5 really solidified Zero's story and explained why so many Reploids became Mavericks in the first place. X6 (the 3rd game after the jump) is where things break down given X5 was supposed to be the last one, leading into the Zero series spin off.

Is it weird that I'm now more interested in the MM discussion than AHM?

Anyway, the first X game was pretty good, but for some reason I could never get into X2 or X3, so I stopped trying after that. I have similar problems with the NES MM series after MM3. (MM2 is the favourite, incidentally.) Though, thank Capcom for MM9.

[Shockwave]

I have the first 3 MMs on the original NES (I never get rid of games or systems). I like X and X2 but haven't really played anything beyond that. I should probably try to track down X and X2.