Transformers - ongoing series

[Sparky Prime]

Roberts' name is recognized. If a writer other than Roche or Roberts or Furman wrote the courthouse flashback scene, people would have howled and bitched that it contradicted "War for Cybertron" or "Exodus". But, Roberts can get away with it, not because he is a good writer but because he is Roberts.

I think you're greatly over-exaggerating.

On the flip side, Sparky is clearly not giving TF fans enough credit.

I don't think so. In general, I don't think many fans really pay that much attention to who wrote a comic issue. I know plenty of people who read a particular comic just for the character(s), regardless of the creative teams that made it.

[Shockwave]

Roberts' name is recognized. If a writer other than Roche or Roberts or Furman wrote the courthouse flashback scene, people would have howled and bitched that it contradicted "War for Cybertron" or "Exodus". But, Roberts can get away with it, not because he is a good writer but because he is Roberts.

I think you're greatly over-exaggerating.

On the flip side, Sparky is clearly not giving TF fans enough credit.

I don't think so. In general, I don't think many fans really pay that much attention to who wrote a comic issue. I know plenty of people who read a particular comic just for the character(s), regardless of the creative teams that made it.

Me. I fall into this category. No offense to Dom, but this is largely why I find his TF comic reviews to be useless as they tend to read more like a commentary on the industry rather than anything having to do with the plot or the characters. Which is the part I'm interested in. Dom's review of #22 in particular is a good example of what I'm referring to since it's entirely about Roberts and how fans will react to him vs. how they would react to other writers. Personally, I could give a fuck how other fans react to Roberts. I'm only interested in what happens in the story and how it affects the characters.

[Dominic]

But, if anything worthwhile happens, it is because of the writer.

And, on a selfish note, summaries are kind of tedious to write.


Dom
-especially when you can just flip through the issue and get the summary.

[Shockwave]

But, if anything worthwhile happens, it is because of the writer.

And, on a selfish note, summaries are kind of tedious to write.


Dom
-especially when you can just flip through the issue and get the summary.

I suppose, I just don't care about that side of things. For me fiction is largely escapism and that being the case why am I going to concern myself with the real world part of it? Especially in my case where I've been known to support the hobby for the sake of the hobby rather than for quality. So if I'm going to read it regardless of if it's good or bad then what does it matter who wrote it? Especially since I have no other comic titles that I'm reading right now and no interest in picking up other properties regardless of who's writing them which means I'm not going to be following writers, good or bad. This is largely why I never post in the comics thread.

Besides, if for some reason I was going to make a decision on whether or not to pick up an issue, I'd base it on the events of the issue and effect on characters and settings rather than how the fanbase is going to react to the writer. Yeah, I get that summaries are kind of tedious to write which is why a basic review of events is all that's needed. You don't need to rewrite the entire issue in a review but just say what you liked about the highlights. Or what you didn't like about said highlights.

As for how the fanbase would react to Roche or Costa or Roberts, Furman, whoever... Dom, I get why you go there.... conceptually. The fanbase's reactions to certain things gives you an idea of how the fanbase is possibly percieved by others and you use that as a baseline to compare yourself to as a Transfan. I get that. What I don't get is why you'd care. Maybe for me this comes from decades of having been a Star Trek fan in a fandom that I've largely tried to disassociate myself with. Star Trek fans have a stereotype of not being able to tell fantasy from reality. The general perception is that we live in our own little "Enterprise" bridges built in our parent's basements constantly running around in home made Starfleet uniforms giving orders to our other Trekkie friends when we go out into the world on "away missions". My life could not be further from that if I tried. I have not interacted with the Trek fandom in so long that I have no idea how other Trekkies react to the fiction that's released, nor do I care. I saw the 2009 Star Trek film and enjoyed it. If other Trekkies didn't, that's their problem and fuck 'em. As such, I have much the same approach in my TF fandom (although I interact with that fandom much more). Case in point: the thing with Synjo. Ok, so Synjo is a BW toyhack. So what? Synjo is not me and I am not Synjo and as such, he is not representative of my part of the fandom. I like BW for my own reasons and regardless of what the rest of the fandom does I'm still going to like it for those reasons and no one is going to ruin it for me. Otherwise I would have had Beast Machines ruined for me years ago. Same for a lot of Furman's work. I interact with the TF fandom in as much as I do because I enjoy it and I enjoy sharing thoughts and ideas with other enthusiasts. I certainly don't need a monster to compare myself to. And not comparing often makes the hobby a much more enjoyable experience.

Ok, that was more of a rant than I intended. But you get my point.

Shockwave
-Is actually starting to rethink the decor in the living room after that "bridge" comment...

[Dominic]

, I get why you go there.... conceptually.

Except...not at all.

I care about the writers because they are the ones that are responsible for what I am reading.

If I like a TF comic, then it behooves me to follow Costa to other books. Conversely, if I dislike a book, I know to avoid the writer.

I read fiction recreationally. But, I only have so much time to spend on recreational reading. I am not going to waste it reflexively reading a book that I do not like. And, I like to economize my efforts for maximum fun.

I care less about the characters and more about what the writer is doing with them.

I always liked Prowl. But, I like post-Roberts and Roche Prowl even more because they did something good with the character.

If I read for character, I would never pick up a book with Spiderman. But, Bendis can get me to pick up a Spiderman focused book.

The general perception is that we live in our own little "Enterprise" bridges built in our parent's basements constantly running around in home made Starfleet uniforms giving orders to our other Trekkie friends when we go out into the world on "away missions".

As much as that stereotype is a hugely over-stated, the fandom as a whole did more than its part to feed it. Sadly, Transfans are going down that road. They need call-outs and references to obscure parts of the hobby to prove that the story was written just for them...because they are special or something.

Shockwave
-Is actually starting to rethink the decor in the living room after that "bridge" comment...

Based on comments you have made, I think it is safe to say you do not have the free space for that sort of thing. Now, if I lived near you, I could probably help with your interior design problems. (Honey Bear will back me up on this. I have a flair for it. No. Seriously. You know what? Laught al you want. Screw you.)


Dom
-what? You think it is funny that a man has a flair for interior design?

[Shockwave]

, I get why you go there.... conceptually.

Except...not at all.

I care about the writers because they are the ones that are responsible for what I am reading.

If I like a TF comic, then it behooves me to follow Costa to other books. Conversely, if I dislike a book, I know to avoid the writer.

I read fiction recreationally. But, I only have so much time to spend on recreational reading. I am not going to waste it reflexively reading a book that I do not like. And, I like to economize my efforts for maximum fun.

I care less about the characters and more about what the writer is doing with them.

I always liked Prowl. But, I like post-Roberts and Roche Prowl even more because they did something good with the character.

If I read for character, I would never pick up a book with Spiderman. But, Bendis can get me to pick up a Spiderman focused book.

And that makes a good example for the contrast here. I give a toss about Spiderman. I really liked McCarthy and Costa's runs on Transformers. But I do not like Spiderman enough to warrant shelling out money on Spiderman regardless of who's writing him even if Shane McCarthy or Costa were to start doing so. My interest is just not there. But I do have enough of an interest in Transformers to shell out money for even a bad TF Comic.

I think part of my problem is that I have a very organized mind and it's to the point where I can't handle taking on things that randomly. I am a fan of Transformers. I am not a fan of comic books. I like some comic book characters and on occassion I have followed some comics from the big 2 but that has been extremely limited. Bear in mind, I'm the one who when my friend got me started on Dr. Who wanted to go back and watch the entire series beginning to end starting with 1st Dr. It was only after several rounds of him explaining how problematic that would be that I finally relented and agreed to just watch whatever he had. I tend to think of reading as linear and so if I'm reading a comic I like to start from the beginning and read the whole thing. This is why I would never pick up a Spiderbook nor would I ever start reading Action Comics (finding #1 alone would be problematic at best, even in reprints). If I started following writers for the sake of folllowing writers, my comic collection would be all over the map and a complete mess. So, by limiting the franchises that I'm a fan of, I limit the collection and can organize it more effeciently. I have also found that by limiting my comics pull list to just Transformers I save a lot of money I would otherwise spend on comics I care very little about. Then there's also the fact that the money I'm not spending on other comics is actually going towards collecting toys of franchises that I enjoy (TF, MOTU, Etc...). I guess I just have to wonder at how haphazzard your collection is if you're just following writers? I mean do you have boxes for each writer? Like "here's the Costa box, next to the Bendis box" etc...? I just couldn't do that. I'm one of those people that likes to take on a story beginning to end, through all of it, good or bad and prefer to judge for myself. That was why I wanted to start Dr. Who from the first Dr. It was only after my friend explained that BBC doesn't even have all of the episodes beginning to end in existence anymore that I finally relented and even then we still had to go in order with what he had. I just can't imagine having to keep track of bits and pieces of various collections here and there... it's sounds so disjointed and unorganized. Case in point: Anderson recently (ok, like several months ago) picked up a Superman compilation with some of the earlier exploits. Those stories were very different from the ones we have today. If I were going to start reading Superman, I'd wanna read how he got from that point to where he is now. I wouldn't be able to just read a current arc because some writer I liked on Transformers happens to now be writing Superman. Somehow that change from Superman was to what he is now is going to be relevant and I wouldn't want to go into a new story without knowing that, regardless of however self contained that story might be.

The general perception is that we live in our own little "Enterprise" bridges built in our parent's basements constantly running around in home made Starfleet uniforms giving orders to our other Trekkie friends when we go out into the world on "away missions".

As much as that stereotype is a hugely over-stated, the fandom as a whole did more than its part to feed it.

Be that as it may, the stereotype is still there and is one that I've really had to fight to overcome. People have often made assumptions to my character based on that stereotype. It's gotten to the point where I don't even tell people I'm a Star Trek fan anymore. Course, that's largely due to the lack of interest in the hobby over the last several years.

Sadly, Transfans are going down that road. They need call-outs and references to obscure parts of the hobby to prove that the story was written just for them...because they are special or something.

No. That's not it. Transfans are headed down a much worse road. It's the same road that older Star Wars fans have gone. Jaded as fuck. We've seen so much change to our hobby over the last 25+ years that we wind up feeling like anything that doesn't have shout outs to the original official material "isn't really Transformers". It's like a lot of older SW fans will tell you that the new trilogy "isn't really Star Wars". I know it's a bad analogy cause we're right (sorry, I'm one of those fans) but the analogy still works. So now, when people outside the fandom ask us about Transformers our knee jerk reaction is "it sucks! And I have the toys, books, movies, games and comics to prove it!"

Shockwave
-Is actually starting to rethink the decor in the living room after that "bridge" comment...

Based on comments you have made, I think it is safe to say you do not have the free space for that sort of thing. Now, if I lived near you, I could probably help with your interior design problems. (Honey Bear will back me up on this. I have a flair for it. No. Seriously. You know what? Laught al you want. Screw you.)

Actually the only reason I don't have the living room "Bridged out" is due to parental influence. And even that only extended so far.

Dom
-what? You think it is funny that a straight man has a flair for interior design?

Fix'd. What? You know what? That's what you get for texting me your tuchus.

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

[Onslaught Six]

Especially since I have no other comic titles that I'm reading right now and no interest in picking up other properties

Not even that awesome Mega Man Archie comic that I am the only person in the world buying?

Seriously, why is nobody else buying it? It's pretty great stuff and it's only on Issue 3 and you need like no knowledge of Mega Man.

Case in point: Anderson recently (ok, like several months ago) picked up a Superman compilation with some of the earlier exploits. Those stories were very different from the ones we have today. If I were going to start reading Superman, I'd wanna read how he got from that point to where he is now. I wouldn't be able to just read a current arc because some writer I liked on Transformers happens to now be writing Superman. Somehow that change from Superman was to what he is now is going to be relevant and I wouldn't want to go into a new story without knowing that, regardless of however self contained that story might be.

The problem is that a comic running as long as Superman has rebooted several times throughout the years and those original stories are no longer relevant. The most reason you will ever have need to read Action Comics #1 is because one day somebody might draw a panel in a new comic that sort of kind of looks like one in AC #1.

Grant Morrison even riffs on this in All-Star Superman (and McCarthy ganks it wholesale for the opening of All Hail Megatron) by basically going, "You know exactly how the fuck Superman got to where he is now, I'm not going to piss around telling you that. I got shit to do, man."

This is part of why mainstream superhero movies being origin stories continues to piss me off. We're getting a Spiderman reboot--is it entirely necessary for Spider-Man to suddenly be a teenager, in high school, learning to cope with his suddenly-new powers again? Can't we just do what The Incredible Hulk did and have a movie where the beginning is all "Yeah, you know who Spider-Man is. You don't have to deal with all the BS."

I mean, when you start watching a television show--on TV--there's a pretty good chance you're not starting from the first episode. How many sitcoms have you seen where your first exposure wasn't the first episode--let alone episodes from the first season? You don't always need the entire linear experience to know a character.

I have never read The Death of Gwen Stacey but I'm more than aware of it because Spider-Man brings it up and mopes about it every two or three months, and also because I read the Wikipedia article on it so I don't really feel the need to grab it. I already read the Wikipedia summary of Kingdom Come and I even read a big thesis on it once--so I don't own it and have never read it. I'll get to it someday.

Also, this is why I don't bother reading mainstream cape stories because most of the time they annoy me. I love comics as an artform--as a medium. But I fucking hate comic books as the fiction they are. (Seriously, how many times in the comics thread do I quote something one of you said about a book, and just the line, "Comic books are fucking retarded?")

Be that as it may, the stereotype is still there and is one that I've really had to fight to overcome. People have often made assumptions to my character based on that stereotype. It's gotten to the point where I don't even tell people I'm a Star Trek fan anymore. Course, that's largely due to the lack of interest in the hobby over the last several years.

We have three Michael Bay movies in our franchise. Transformers may well be looked down on more than Star Trek at this point.

(Incidentally! I have seen maybe two episodes of Star Trek: The Original Series and yet was completely able to walk into the '09 Star Trek film and already have working knowledge of all the characters...although this may be partially because I have seen every episode of Futurama.)

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Not at all! Perfectly natural. What two consenting adults do behind closed doors is their own business!

[Dominic]

I think part of my problem is that I have a very organized mind and it's to the point where I can't handle taking on things that randomly.

But it is not random. I am buying "Costa" or "Bendis", not "Spiderman".

A collection based on this is hardly disorganized.

I guess I just have to wonder at how haphazzard your collection is if you're just following writers? I mean do you have boxes for each writer? Like "here's the Costa box, next to the Bendis box" etc...?

I actually have stacks. I periodically purge through them. But, no, my collection is not haphazard. Most writers have runs on a given book. And, since I pick up compilations, short runs are treated as regular books.

I'm one of those people that likes to take on a story beginning to end, through all of it, good or bad and prefer to judge for myself.

Gruenwald's "Captain America" is not Brubacker's any more than "Michelinies" Batman is Grant's, or.... You get the idea.

If I were going to start reading Superman, I'd wanna read how he got from that point to where he is now. I wouldn't be able to just read a current arc because some writer I liked on Transformers happens to now be writing Superman. Somehow that change from Superman was to what he is now is going to be relevant and I wouldn't want to go into a new story without knowing that, regardless of however self contained that story might be.

Then pick up, or read summaries of, key issues when writers or editors changed.

In the case of Superman, about 80% of the run, (Sparky can do the exact math if he wants), is out of context anyway. So, getting a complete run would be a waste of time if getting a complete story is your goal.

Be that as it may, the stereotype is still there and is one that I've really had to fight to overcome. People have often made assumptions to my character based on that stereotype.

What makes it worse is that enough members of various fandoms justify the stereotypes.

I have been using this, (or other aliases), for a bit more than a decade. But, I got *very* serious about it in '05 when I was trying to grow up and be a bit more professional. And, when I was seriously considering being a teacher, it became vital to hide my hobby.

We've seen so much change to our hobby over the last 25+ years that we wind up feeling like anything that doesn't have shout outs to the original official material "isn't really Transformers".

Agreed. I have met fans who proudly claim to dislike change to the hobby, (and elsewise).

Fix'd. What? You know what? That's what you get for texting me your tuchus.

I have actually known some gay slobs who dress worse than I do, so I barely consider the "gay men are neater and more stylish" stereotype, even for humour value.


Dom
-not that it was my tuchus, but hopes you appreciated the shading on that last picture.

[Onslaught Six]

I have been using this, (or other aliases), for a bit more than a decade. But, I got *very* serious about it in '05 when I was trying to grow up and be a bit more professional. And, when I was seriously considering being a teacher, it became vital to hide my hobby.

One look at my Facebook shows that I'm all about hiding my identity.

But regardless! I had a maths professor once in college who was very openly a TF fan (and general nerd). He was probably one of the coolest teachers I knew. (Wish I could find him on Facebook or something now; but I don't remember his name.)

I have actually known some gay slobs who dress worse than I do, so I barely consider the "gay men are neater and more stylish" stereotype, even for humour value.

Wow. I don't know how to respond to this. (I'm not offended, or anything, I just...don't know what to say.)

[Sparky Prime]

A collection based on this is hardly disorganized.

But such a collection would have holes in the story between picking up with particular writers.

Gruenwald's "Captain America" is not Brubacker's any more than "Michelinies" Batman is Grant's, or.... You get the idea.

That's missing the point of an ongoing story. Sure writers/artists have different takes on any given character, but it's still supposed to be the same character.

In the case of Superman, about 80% of the run, (Sparky can do the exact math if he wants), is out of context anyway. So, getting a complete run would be a waste of time if getting a complete story is your goal.

An exact figure I'd say would be really difficult to pin down actually. Given DC has gone back and forth on various stories over the years. Or sometimes incorporated conflicting versions together, such as, for a time, Superman's statue of his Kryptonian parents in the Fortress of Solitude depicted both the Silver Age and Modern Age versions of them holding up the globe of Krypton after he'd encountered a version of Krypton different from what he knew of it. And then there is the ongoing legal battle with the Siegel and Shuster families over the character which has forced DC to make some changes (some have speculated the upcoming changes to his costume might be the result of this). But to claim 80% of the run is out of context I think is greatly exaggerating things. Granted, a lot of it may no longer apply to the modern day Superman, but that doesn't mean those stories are completely out of context either.