TF Views

Sparky, is Sunstreaker your favorite TF character or something? This whole thread, you've been complaining about the direction AHM took him in, and you seem really fixated on the fact that There Is Just No Way that Sunstreaker could be a genocidal asshole. You seem *really* bound and determined to defend him from the actions McCarthy had him take in this series. I mean, you said over in the comics thread that you have an issue with Character Assassination (I don't, I need to mention that over there), and when you posit stuff like this:

Sparky wrote:Seriously, it's Starscream. Even unbalanced, Sunstreaker should know not to trust him or any opportunities he's offering.

it just seems like you're giving him too much credit for the sake of discrediting the writer who turned one of your favorite characters into a self-absorbed rape victim who tried to wipe out humanity. So is that what the deal is?

Since we're discussing Sunstreaker's mental state, and since I've finally tracked down copies of Devastation 2 and 3, I wanted to comment on this, particularly since I've seen this claim made on other boards as well, that AHM #14 ignores continuity to make Hunter look like he forced Sunstreaker into an unwilling partnership as a Headmaster:

Sparky Prime wrote:Specifically, in this story, Sunstreaker keeps pleading with Hunter to kill him, even after Hunter makes his proposal to become a headmaster. Hunter appears to just ignore Sunstreaker's pleas and because of this, it kinda implies Hunter forced Sunstreaker into it.

The final panel of Devastation #2 shows Hunter discovering Sunstreaker's disembodied head, and Sunstreaker begs Hunter to kill him. That's the first time.

Originally however, in Devastation #3, Hunter refuses to kill Sunstreaker because he believes there is a way for them to fight back, leading to his proposal of becoming a headmaster.

In issue 3, Sunstreaker then goes on to discuss the Headmasters and what they mean to him. He then again begs Hunter to kill him for the second time. Hunter emphatically says "No. There must be some other option, some other way to fight back." Sunstreaker says that he just wants things to stop, that he is being used against other Autobots and that this is the beginning. At this point, Hunter says "show me how to be a Headmaster!"

Then in Devastation #4, when Hunter asks "So Sunstreaker... room for one more in there?" Sunstreaker replies "Heh, why not?". He doesn't ask again for Hunter to kill him, if anything he is shown agreeing with Hunter's plan so they both can fight back for what's been done to them.

This does happen, but only after Sunstreaker has begged to be killed three times. Explicitly twice, and then by implication when he says that he just wants things to stop. Hunter does indeed insist on becoming a Headmaster to fight back, whereas Sunstreaker at that point just wanted the pain to stop. Hunter did, in essence, force him to agree to the Headmaster process.

BWprowl wrote:Sparky, is Sunstreaker your favorite TF character or something? This whole thread, you've been complaining about the direction AHM took him in, and you seem really fixated on the fact that There Is Just No Way that Sunstreaker could be a genocidal asshole. You seem *really* bound and determined to defend him from the actions McCarthy had him take in this series. I mean, you said over in the comics thread that you have an issue with Character Assassination (I don't, I need to mention that over there), and when you posit stuff like this:

I don't really care for Sunstreaker actually, because he is normally a jerk of a character. But it does matter to me that characters are kept consistent which I do not feel Sunstreaker has been here. And no, this whole thread has not been me complaining about the direction he was taken in. If you read through the whole thing I'm sure you'll find I have a lot of complaints about AHM. Perceptor's characterization for example. Or the importance placed on the Matrix, retconning why the war started in the first place. How stupid it is that one traitor could bring down the entire Autobot army. Megatron's plans for the Decepticons post war with the Autobots. The miraculously quick recovery of Optimus from death's door step. And so on...

andersonh1 wrote:Hunter did, in essence, force him to agree to the Headmaster process.

The difference being, Sunstreaker agrees the first time. There is no way Hunter could actually *force* Sunstreaker to show him how to be a Headmaster. Sunstreaker could have just said, "screw that, just kill me". But no, he tells Hunter what he needs to do.

Dominic wrote:If one does not make moral distinctions between individual members of the group, wanting to attack one individual is the same as wanting to attack them all.

Sunstreaker is capable of making moral distinctions though, even as a sociopath. How else could he make the distinction between Autobot and Decepticon and join one as apposed to the other?

Most sociopaths do not regard members of their own species as morally worth-while. That is kind of their thing.

Again, given Sunstreaker chose to side with the Autobots in the first place, that would suggest he does have some sense that their race is morally worth-while (particularly with the Autobot ideals).

Sunstreaker is abnormally vain and aggressive.

Before the trauma, yes. After...? It's impossible to say how much his mental state was effected exactly.

But, would he *care*?

You were the one that said:

Maybe Sunstreaker wanted to keep his hands clean, literally and metaphorically. This would be consistent with his portrayal in "Coda", as seeing himself as heroic.

Only if one does not associate the other person who shared the experience with being the cause of the experience.

Hunter wasn't the cause of the experience though. Machination did it to him and Hunter. Two victims.

Sparky Prime wrote:

andersonh1 wrote:Hunter did, in essence, force him to agree to the Headmaster process.

The difference being, Sunstreaker agrees the first time. There is no way Hunter could actually *force* Sunstreaker to show him how to be a Headmaster. Sunstreaker could have just said, "screw that, just kill me". But no, he tells Hunter what he needs to do.

While he does ultimately agree, the scene in AHM #14 is just a cut down version of the scene in Devastation #3. They don't conflict, because they're essentially exactly the same, minus some exposition. They're almost word for word actually.

Not that you don't have plenty of other nitpicks with AHM, but that scene in #14 shouldn't be one of them.

andersonh1 wrote:While he does ultimately agree, the scene in AHM #14 is just a cut down version of the scene in Devastation #3. They don't conflict, because they're essentially exactly the same, minus some exposition. They're almost word for word actually.

Not that you don't have plenty of other nitpicks with AHM, but that scene in #14 shouldn't be one of them.

I don't agree. With what AHM#14 abridges and alters with that scene, it drastically changes the perception of those events from Devastation #3. Again, in one instance we've got Sunstreaker being agreeable to Hunter's proposal, and in the other it's cut in such a way to make it seem like Hunter is ignoring Sunstreaker's wishes.

Sparky Prime wrote:

andersonh1 wrote:While he does ultimately agree, the scene in AHM #14 is just a cut down version of the scene in Devastation #3. They don't conflict, because they're essentially exactly the same, minus some exposition. They're almost word for word actually.

Not that you don't have plenty of other nitpicks with AHM, but that scene in #14 shouldn't be one of them.

I don't agree. With what AHM#14 abridges and alters with that scene, it drastically changes the perception of those events from Devastation #3. Again, in one instance we've got Sunstreaker being agreeable to Hunter's proposal,

That comes later, in issue #4. The only thing abridged in the AHM scene is some exposition. There's nothing there in Devastation to indicate that Sunstreaker is a willing partner at that point.

and in the other it's cut in such a way to make it seem like Hunter is ignoring Sunstreaker's wishes.

He does ignore them. In Devastation, Hunter insists on going through with the Headmaster process, when Sunstreaker just wants to die. His "heh, why not?" in #4 is the first sign that he's agreeable in any way to the whole venture, and that's clearly because he has no way of stopping Hunter, so he may as well help him.

From AHM #14:
Sunstreaker: Hunter... please, kill me!
Hunter: No, I won't accept that.
Sunstreaker: Please, I just want this to stop.
Hunter: No, teach me Sunstreaker. Teach me how to be a headmaster!
Sunstreaker: Kill me please...

From Devastation #3:
Hunter: Ok, right, so what do we do?
Sunstreaker: Kuh.... kill me.
Hunter: No, I won't accept that. There must be another option, some way to fight back.
Sunstreaker: Please... I just want this to stop. They're all in here using me to hunt other Autobots. This is just the beginning.
Hunter: Yeah it is. Teach me Sunstreaker, everything. There are more clone bodies down here, I've seen them. Teach me how to be a headmaster!

The scene in AHM #14 is essentially just a slightly cut down version of this exact sequence. Most of the dialogue is word for word, with just some slight alterations. Nothing that changes the emphasis of that particular scene. All it does is remove some of Sunstreaker's reasons for wanting to die.

andersonh1 wrote:That comes later, in issue #4. The only thing abridged in the AHM scene is some exposition. There's nothing there in Devastation to indicate that Sunstreaker is a willing partner at that point.

That exposition is pretty important. Rather than just seeming ignoring Sunstreaker, Hunter actually explains why he doesn't want to kill Sunstreaker, telling him "I won't accept that. There must be another option, some way to fight back". And then in issue 4 when Hunter asks if Sunstreaker's got "room for one more in there?" Sunstreaker is clearly for the idea saying "Hehn. Why not?" and even expresses concern for Hunter asking "Whuhdoabout youuu? Puh-point of nh-no return..."

He does ignore them.

No he does not. Again, Hunter tells him in Devastation: "I won't accept that. There must be another option, some way to fight back", directly confronting Sunstreaker's pleas, and goes on to suggest a way for them to fight back. Then, in Maximum Dinobots #4, they show that Hunter was willing to kill Sunstreaker once they ran out of any other options.

The scene in AHM #14 is essentially just a slightly cut down version of this exact sequence. Most of the dialogue is word for word, with just some slight alterations. Nothing that changes the emphasis of that particular scene. All it does is remove some of Sunstreaker's reasons for wanting to die.

Slight alterations? Look at how different the dialog is between what you posted here. AHM you've got Sunstreaker just begging to die and Hunter being rather callous about it. In Devastation however, Hunter is actually expressing concern, believing they must have another option than to just kill Sunstreaker.

Sparky Prime wrote:Slight alterations? Look at how different the dialog is between what you posted here. AHM you've got Sunstreaker just begging to die and Hunter being rather callous about it. In Devastation however, Hunter is actually expressing concern, believing they must have another option than to just kill Sunstreaker.

We're just reading it differently then. I see a simplified version of the same scene, not something completely different.

andersonh1 wrote:We're just reading it differently then. I see a simplified version of the same scene, not something completely different.

That's the problem with trying to simplify a scene. If you cut too much out, it's going to change the feel of the scene. That's what I see happening here. The AHM version of the scene even adds another "kill me" from Sunstreaker after Hunter's proposal, something not in the original, which again puts a different spin on this scene.

Who cares anymore?

Dom was worried that big parts of this weren't going to stick, and that's looking increasingly likely. The only good thing coming is Last Stand of the Wreckers and maybe that Bumblebee book.