The continuity lesson of Beast Wars

[Sparky Prime]

Sure there is: They replicated the keys, didn't they?

It is an unexplained gap in the story and you know it.

And that doesn't change the fact that I think BM is an awesome show that no amount of nit-picking can destroy. So nyeh.

That wasn't what I was arguing though is it? Although personally I didn't like a lot of the things BM did with the story and mythos of Transformers.

[andersonh1]

Okay, in that case, it really was advancements in technology that let them replicate the key. Via...replication. Like the replicator, from Star Trek, y'know?

As you may be able to tell, this isn't a terribly important point for me. I honestly never worried about the key all that much. These are super-advanced alien robots using a program from a millenia-old supercomputer. I'll be damned if I'll ever fully understand how it all works, but the show was cool as hell, so I'm willing to accept that.

This, and how much sense would it make to simply have one key to activate the computer? So they lose that key and Vector Sigma is forevermore inaccessible? It makes sense to have some method for key duplication. Clearly that's a problem if the key program gets into the wrong hands, but that happened in G1 with Megatron when there was only one key available, held by Alpha Trion. Perhaps that's why the Oracle appears to be acting as an extra level of security for Vector Sigma.

[Sparky Prime]

So they lose that key and Vector Sigma is forevermore inaccessible?

No, again that's why Alpha Trion sacrificed himself in G1, so that they could access Vector Sigma without the key. And Optimus used the (empty) Matrix to communicate with Alpha Trion inside Vector Sigma at one point. It seemed the Oracle was somehow an extension of Vector Sigma, and the Maximals clearly didn't need a key to activate that. So there are other ways to activate it with out the key.

[SynjoDeonecros]

Check the Wiki entries for the Maximal Elders; it says quite clearly that they kept as much info as they could on both the Great War AND Earth locked up, so I am NOT the only one who got that impression from the show.

Well I see that to be somewhat in error given it's a bit of an overstatement seeing that we really don't know how much information the Maximal Elders withholds on the Great War. The show only makes reference to the files on Starscream being classified.

You're making excuses for why Silverbolt WOULDN'T WANT to learn, instead of whether or not he COULD learn it, and as I said before, WOULD WANT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE, COULD IS.

I'm not saying he wouldn't want to learn, I'm saying he's a little busy with everything going on (what with the war and a girl friend) and you're expecting him to learn a LOT of information in a very short amount of time. Clearly he had learned something about the Ark by the point they found it, although obviously not enough given he was under the impression it was a legend.

And you just made my point for me; the impression given by the writers is that they DID NOT know about their history, because they COULD NOT; they didn't have access to the records, they didn't have access to any survivors or eyewitnesses, EVERYTHING they know is anecdotal and textbook stuff, stuff that is nebulous at best. That IS the impression given, but now that we know there ARE survivors, that impression is shattered, and we know that they COULD learn more accurate details about everything, if they wanted to.

See, I never said they couldn't learn about their own history. Rather, I've been saying they do know about their own history given the evidence in the show, with the exception of the files on Starscream being the only thing we actually know has been classified by the Maximal Elders or those who have had their datatracks lost and need more time to (re?)learn.

No, I'm sorry, but I think you're blatantly ignoring all the evidence and insinuation the show AND the complimentary comics are giving us about this. First of all, you just shot yourself in the foot by trying to explain how Silverbolt was "too busy" to study TF history; we clearly see breaks in the fighting long enough for the Maximals to have DOWN TIME, so he could've used THAT to learn, and in case you've forgotten, Blackarachnia was ALREADY ESTABLISHED TO BE A STUDY OF TF HISTORY BY THEN. SHE could've taught him something. So again, it's all about whether he had the ABILITY to learn vs. whether he had the INTENTION to learn, and clearly the answer is YES to the former and NO to the latter, and for the purpose of this argument, the latter is thrown out, because - again - intent is NOT what we're arguing about, here, since the clear indication of the series is that they didn't have the ABILITY.

And are you completely ignoring the Maximal Elders' ban on going to Earth? In case you haven't noticed, they NEVER gave a definitive reason for why Starscream's files were sealed, either; it was just implied in Bad Spark that they were sealed due to the experiments done on Rampage. Who knows what their reasons were? The fact is, sealing up those (and other, from the impression the show gave and the hints given from the supplementary comics) records and arbitrarily banning travel to Earth shows very clearly that the Elders were manipulative bastards willing to seal up and control as much data about their race's history as possible. That is the clear indication given, period. And from that, the indication is that the Maximals were ignorant of their own history (shown by EVERY SINGLE REACTION THEY HAD to ANYTHING dealing with G1 being "I thought it was a myth", instead of "This is more impressive than what I was told") because that control of information PREVENTED them from learning more. The indication is clear and blatant, so I don't understand why you're ignoring it and saying it doesn't exist.

I'm sorry, but this is something we have to agree to disagree on. I love the show to death, it's the best TF show in my opinion, but I wouldn't be arguing this point as passionately as I have been if I wasn't sure that that was what was happening and didn't do any research to make sure I had my facts straight, and thus far, EVERYTHING I've found supports my argument.

[Onslaught Six]

You're contradicting yourself, Synjo. First you say Silverbolt had time to learn about the Ark, but then you say the Maximal Elders are locking as much information as they can. Which is it? They either have access to this information, or they don't.

Also, I'd like to point out that I've always put far more importance on Primal than what the show itself readily implies. He's the leader of a small team of science explorers, right? ...But for one thing, he's a Primal, and BWII says he has a Matrix Shard, and I like to believe that for no real reason other than 'it makes Primal cooler.' And for another, he's in charge of dumping off Protoform X. I suppose you could easily throw Rattrap and Rhinox into the mix, giving them important roles as well--though likely not Cheetor because Cheetor is an idiot. So Primal and co. are actually probably black ops or something.

Or maybe it's my imagination again.

[SynjoDeonecros]

You're contradicting yourself, Synjo. First you say Silverbolt had time to learn about the Ark, but then you say the Maximal Elders are locking as much information as they can. Which is it? They either have access to this information, or they don't.

Also, I'd like to point out that I've always put far more importance on Primal than what the show itself readily implies. He's the leader of a small team of science explorers, right? ...But for one thing, he's a Primal, and BWII says he has a Matrix Shard, and I like to believe that for no real reason other than 'it makes Primal cooler.' And for another, he's in charge of dumping off Protoform X. I suppose you could easily throw Rattrap and Rhinox into the mix, giving them important roles as well--though likely not Cheetor because Cheetor is an idiot. So Primal and co. are actually probably black ops or something.

Or maybe it's my imagination again.

I'm not contradicting myself, the writers are, and that's exactly the argument I'm making, here.

Let me explain: there is a bunch of evidence given by the writers that show that the Cybertronian population was ignorant of the Great War, and had no way of verifying what knowledge they did know; we know the Maximal Elders sealed up as much info about the War and Earth as possible (including making Earth off-limits), and there was a strong implication that no Autobot or Decepticon survivors existed during the time of the show, thus the Maximals and Predacons knew very little about their history, and could neither get a hold of any records of it or talk with any eyewitnesses about it to learn more. In other words, they were ignorant, because they were not ABLE to learn. Even the writers themselves have stated they were trying to keep G1 as "Arthurian lore", which further proves they DID intend on this implication that the Transformers were ignorant of the past and couldn't learn more.

However, two things ruin that: first of all, "Possession" shows quite clearly that only the Maximals were barred from the records, NOT the Predacons. Ignoring speculation on why the records were sealed up, in the first place, and any arguments over how much influence the Maximal Elders had on the Predacon government (which is hinted to be significant, but I digress), the fact remains that the Predacons had access to information about Cybertronian history that the Maximals don't. Why couldn't the Maximals make arrangements with Predacon informants to get access to that information? Yes, it would be dangerous, thanks to political intrigue and old prejudices, but that doesn't change the fact that the Predacons WERE a source of information for the Maximals to exploit, if they wanted to.

Second, when Ravage appeared, the implication given up until then that there were no Autobot/Decepticon survivors vanished, and - with Primal's statement that there were MORE Decepticons that survived, and the comics clearly showing AUTOBOTS surviving, too - we now can clearly see that the Maixmals had ANOTHER source of information they could've gone to to learn, one that they didn't HAVE to do anything as illicit or dangerous as work with Predacon informants to do so. After being hit over the head with evidence and implication that the Maximals COULDN'T learn more about their history, we're given two distinct and verifiable ways that they COULD. That ruins the whole "Arthurian lore" of G1 that the writers were going for.

So when I said that Silverbolt HAD the chance to learn more, but also stated the info was sealed by the Maximal Elders, I wasn't contradicting myself; the records WERE sealed, implying that he COULDN'T learn anything from the Maximals, but Blackarachnia was already established as having studied Great War history, clearly showing that he DID have a way of learning it.

That's why I'm so pissed off when people come up to me and try to justify this by saying they didn't have time to learn or didn't want to learn; it's clear they DID have the time to learn, and while they may not WANT to learn, that's not the issue here; the issue is that the writers were trying to establish that they COUDLN'T learn, and they failed at that by givving us clear examples of how they COULD.

[Sparky Prime]

No, I'm sorry, but I think you're blatantly ignoring all the evidence and insinuation the show AND the complimentary comics are giving us about this.

As far as I'm concerned, that's what you're guilty of here.

First of all, you just shot yourself in the foot by trying to explain how Silverbolt was "too busy" to study TF history; we clearly see breaks in the fighting long enough for the Maximals to have DOWN TIME, so he could've used THAT to learn, and in case you've forgotten, Blackarachnia was ALREADY ESTABLISHED TO BE A STUDY OF TF HISTORY BY THEN.

Let's be realistic here. Even with what ever down time the Maximals have, there is a lot Silverbolt needs to catch up on given he lost all of his datatracks and he isn't going to spend every second of that time relearning everything he lost. And we're not just talking relearning history here (which we know is over 4 million years worth) but everything. Not to mention he'd have mission reports and things he'd need to keep up to date on their current situation with the Beast Wars. And he isn't going to be spending all of his time with Blackarachnia studying history either. So yes, he is very busy. But again, he must have learned something about the Ark on his own given his comment he knew it existed albeit he thought it was a legend.

And are you completely ignoring the Maximal Elders' ban on going to Earth?

Not at all, but again, he have no clue why they banned travel to Earth. If you want to look at the comics though, the Beast Wars Source Books IDW produced suggests it was because of the events of Beast Wars II, and had nothing to do with covering up history whatsoever.

In case you haven't noticed, they NEVER gave a definitive reason for why Starscream's files were sealed, either; it was just implied in Bad Spark that they were sealed due to the experiments done on Rampage.

The Protoform X experiments alone seems like good enough reason to me. What better way to cover up a failed (and extremely dangerous) experiment than to classify the subject it was based on in the first place?

And from that, the indication is that the Maximals were ignorant of their own history (shown by EVERY SINGLE REACTION THEY HAD to ANYTHING dealing with G1 being "I thought it was a myth", instead of "This is more impressive than what I was told") because that control of information PREVENTED them from learning more. The indication is clear and blatant, so I don't understand why you're ignoring it and saying it doesn't exist.

Again, it was only Silverbolt that made comment he thought the Ark was a legend, and he's hardly a reliable gauge on the Maximals knowledge given the loss of his datatracks. However, the other Maximals immediately recognized the Ark and its importance. Optimus was even knowledgeable enough to know the Ark was "die-cast construction" and later explained the background of the Nemesis to Tigerhawk. Depthcharge also immediately recognized the Ark despite not knowing anything about the Beast Wars. I don't know why you seem to be overlooking these facts. The Maximals aren't as clueless about their own history as you suggest.

and thus far, EVERYTHING I've found supports my argument.

Maybe you should read what you've found a bit more carefully then, because you're overlooking some important facts. The evidence I see suggests the opposite of what you suggest.

[SynjoDeonecros]

No, I'm sorry, but I think you're blatantly ignoring all the evidence and insinuation the show AND the complimentary comics are giving us about this.

As far as I'm concerned, that's what you're guilty of here.

First of all, you just shot yourself in the foot by trying to explain how Silverbolt was "too busy" to study TF history; we clearly see breaks in the fighting long enough for the Maximals to have DOWN TIME, so he could've used THAT to learn, and in case you've forgotten, Blackarachnia was ALREADY ESTABLISHED TO BE A STUDY OF TF HISTORY BY THEN.

Let's be realistic here. Even with what ever down time the Maximals have, there is a lot Silverbolt needs to catch up on given he lost all of his datatracks and he isn't going to spend every second of that time relearning everything he lost. And we're not just talking relearning history here (which we know is over 4 million years worth) but everything. Not to mention he'd have mission reports and things he'd need to keep up to date on their current situation with the Beast Wars. And he isn't going to be spending all of his time with Blackarachnia studying history either. So yes, he is very busy. But again, he must have learned something about the Ark on his own given his comment he knew it existed albeit he thought it was a legend.

And are you completely ignoring the Maximal Elders' ban on going to Earth?

Not at all, but again, he have no clue why they banned travel to Earth. If you want to look at the comics though, the Beast Wars Source Books IDW produced suggests it was because of the events of Beast Wars II, and had nothing to do with covering up history whatsoever.

In case you haven't noticed, they NEVER gave a definitive reason for why Starscream's files were sealed, either; it was just implied in Bad Spark that they were sealed due to the experiments done on Rampage.

The Protoform X experiments alone seems like good enough reason to me. What better way to cover up a failed (and extremely dangerous) experiment than to classify the subject it was based on in the first place?

And from that, the indication is that the Maximals were ignorant of their own history (shown by EVERY SINGLE REACTION THEY HAD to ANYTHING dealing with G1 being "I thought it was a myth", instead of "This is more impressive than what I was told") because that control of information PREVENTED them from learning more. The indication is clear and blatant, so I don't understand why you're ignoring it and saying it doesn't exist.

Again, it was only Silverbolt that made comment he thought the Ark was a legend, and he's hardly a reliable gauge on the Maximals knowledge given the loss of his datatracks. However, the other Maximals immediately recognized the Ark and its importance. Optimus was even knowledgeable enough to know the Ark was "die-cast construction" and later explained the background of the Nemesis to Tigerhawk. Depthcharge also immediately recognized the Ark despite not knowing anything about the Beast Wars. I don't know why you seem to be overlooking these facts. The Maximals aren't as clueless about their own history as you suggest.

and thus far, EVERYTHING I've found supports my argument.

Maybe you should read what you've found a bit more carefully then, because you're overlooking some important facts. The evidence I see suggests the opposite of what you suggest.

BWII? Wasn't both it and BW Neo established to happen around the SAME TIME as the comics? If I remember correctly, BWII was created as a placeholder while the Japanese waited for season 2, and took place around the same time as BW, so I really doubt that's the reason for the Maximal Elders banning travel to Earth. Besides, aren't the BW sourcebooks notorious for being error-ridden and unreliable? I don't think that's a good source to cite, there.

I'm not overlooking the facts, I'm stating them very clearly; The Transformers' reaction to seeing the Ark is PRECISELY what you'd expect someone to react when they find a mythological relic - a lot of disbelieving oohs and aahs, and maybe a few ramblings about what little they've heard of it. Seriously, you CANNOT tell me that their slack-jawed, dinner plate-eyed, "OMFG I must be seeing things" look on their faces is anything BUT disbelief at what they're seeing. Up until then, they KNEW they were on Earth, they KNEW they were some 4 million years in the past, so if they knew so much about their own history, they should've KNOWN the Ark was around, somewhere. so their reaction SHOULD be one of amazement and impression, not disbelief and incredulity. It would be like you visiting the Lincoln Memorial vs. you finding the real biblical Ark; with the first, you'd be amazed at how better (or worse) it is IRL than from what you've heard of it, while the latter you'd be amazed that you actually are seeing the Ark. The Maximals react like the latter, NOT the former.

And seriously, THE WRITERS THEMSELVES have stated they wanted to keep an air of mystery and "Arthurian lore" about G1, meaning they DID intend for the Maximals to be that freaking ignorant of their history. Are you really going to argue with the writers?

As for Protoform X, WHO KNEW that Starscream was used as a template for him, hmm? Not the Maximal Public, that's for sure, and not the Predacons, either. In fact, not even RAMPAGE HIMSELF seemed to know he was created from Starscream's spark, or if he did, he never let on. Seriously, the ONLY people who could've known and who DID know about Starscream's connection to the experiment were the people who made the experiment, in the first place, and those that were hired to dispose of it. They could've EASILY kept it quiet WITHOUT having to resort to sealing up Starscream's files, and again, there's NO DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE that the files were sealed JUST for that, just the mild implication that it WAS for that reason. Even if it WAS, that COMBINED with the banning of travel to Earth, and the evidence provided about the Maximal Elders' actions in the comics, all point to them doing a HELL of a lot more than just covering up their little experiment.

No, no, no, no, no, I'm sorry, but I just do not and CANNOT see it , not at all, and not from what I've read and researched on this. The intention is clear, they WERE meant to be that ignorant, and the writers screwed that up by showing that they didn't NEED to be. That's it, end of story.

[BWprowl]

I'm not overlooking the facts, I'm stating them very clearly; The Transformers' reaction to seeing the Ark is PRECISELY what you'd expect someone to react when they find a mythological relic - a lot of disbelieving oohs and aahs, and maybe a few ramblings about what little they've heard of it. Seriously, you CANNOT tell me that their slack-jawed, dinner plate-eyed, "OMFG I must be seeing things" look on their faces is anything BUT disbelief at what they're seeing.

Dude, how long has it been since you watched 'The Agenda'? That's not even close to how they react. Cheetor lets out one "Whoa, the Ark!" in more of an 'Oh cool' way than anything else, and then they all get down to business. They don't even have any problems with shooting at the thing.

Up until then, they KNEW they were on Earth, they KNEW they were some 4 million years in the past, so if they knew so much about their own history, they should've KNOWN the Ark was around, somewhere. so their reaction SHOULD be one of amazement and impression, not disbelief and incredulity.

Well, I'm not sure how many of them had connected the dots to know they were on Earth. At the least, we know Waspinator, Blackarachnia, Megatron, and Primal apparently (Dinobot too, but he was dead by the time they found it). Even then, Earth is a big friggin' planet. Unlike Megatron and Blackarachnia, who presumably had coordinates from the Golden Disc, the Maximals wouldn't even know where to begin looking for the Ark, provided they had the time. But anyway, my point still stands because their reaction *is* one of amazement. Watch the episodes again.

And seriously, THE WRITERS THEMSELVES have stated they wanted to keep an air of mystery and "Arthurian lore" about G1, meaning they DID intend for the Maximals to be that freaking ignorant of their history. Are you really going to argue with the writers?

Frankly, I think them putting out the idea of "Arthurian Lore" was more them covering their ass for any continuity errors that might pop up than anything else.

As for Protoform X, WHO KNEW that Starscream was used as a template for him, hmm? Not the Maximal Public, that's for sure, and not the Predacons, either. In fact, not even RAMPAGE HIMSELF seemed to know he was created from Starscream's spark, or if he did, he never let on. Seriously, the ONLY people who could've known and who DID know about Starscream's connection to the experiment were the people who made the experiment, in the first place, and those that were hired to dispose of it. They could've EASILY kept it quiet WITHOUT having to resort to sealing up Starscream's files, and again, there's NO DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE that the files were sealed JUST for that, just the mild implication that it WAS for that reason.

Well, honestly, if you found out that your Elders did an experiment to create an immortal spark, and then found out that there was a Decepticon with an immortal spark, wouldn't you be able to put two and two together? Sealing up the records and (attempting to) destroy the evidence was probably the best way to go to keep the story from getting out. Better safe than sorry.

No, no, no, no, no, I'm sorry, but I just do not and CANNOT see it , not at all, and not from what I've read and researched on this. The intention is clear, they WERE meant to be that ignorant, and the writers screwed that up by showing that they didn't NEED to be. That's it, end of story.

I can't name all fifty states in the United States. There are a bunch I simply cannot name offhand. The information is freely available, and honestly wouldn't take too much effort for me to learn, but I don't. So I'm ignorant, even though I don't *need* to be.

And honestly dude, calm down. The screaming tone and intermittent CAPS LOCK is really off-putting, and certainly doesn't help your argument seem more rational.

[Sparky Prime]

BWII? Wasn't both it and BW Neo established to happen around the SAME TIME as the comics? If I remember correctly, BWII was created as a placeholder while the Japanese waited for season 2, and took place around the same time as BW, so I really doubt that's the reason for the Maximal Elders banning travel to Earth. Besides, aren't the BW sourcebooks notorious for being error-ridden and unreliable? I don't think that's a good source to cite, there.

I never said the sourcebooks were the most reliable but that's about the only thing that comes close to actually explaining why the Earth would be made off limits that I can find. And according to IDW, BWII and BWNeo took place around the time the Pax Cybertronia was signed, before Beast Wars. This would also be supported by "The Gathering" and "The Ascension" given those comics take place during the Beast Wars (relatively speaking given the time travel) but clearly LioConvoy, BigConvoy and crew(s) are not off fighting some distance war, and even took the time to revert to Cybertronian forms.

BWprowl pretty much already covered the following points but to add my 2cents...

I'm not overlooking the facts, I'm stating them very clearly; The Transformers' reaction to seeing the Ark is PRECISELY what you'd expect someone to react when they find a mythological relic - a lot of disbelieving oohs and aahs, and maybe a few ramblings about what little they've heard of it. Seriously, you CANNOT tell me that their slack-jawed, dinner plate-eyed, "OMFG I must be seeing things" look on their faces is anything BUT disbelief at what they're seeing.

Like BWprowl said, none of this was even close to what their reactions upon seeing the Ark were. Heck, the first thing Primal says is "No, by Primus No!" because he sees Megatron just walked inside. Cheetor has a "whoa cool" moment but all the Maximals are right down to business upon seeing the Ark. None of them go wide-eyed or slacked jawed over it.

Up until then, they KNEW they were on Earth, they KNEW they were some 4 million years in the past, so if they knew so much about their own history, they should've KNOWN the Ark was around, somewhere.

It's kinda debatable that they all knew by that point they were on Earth. The Predacons certainly did and it was indicated Dinobot filled in Optimus on the whole situation after the episode "Maximal, No More" and Primal probably told Rhinox but it's hard to say beyond that...

And seriously, THE WRITERS THEMSELVES have stated they wanted to keep an air of mystery and "Arthurian lore" about G1, meaning they DID intend for the Maximals to be that freaking ignorant of their history. Are you really going to argue with the writers?

We are talking about ancient history to the Maximals and Predacons here. Can you say that stuff like Alexander the Great for an example doesn't seem somewhat like the stuff of legends even though we know it actually happened?

As for Protoform X, WHO KNEW that Starscream was used as a template for him, hmm? Not the Maximal Public, that's for sure, and not the Predacons, either.

That's the point. Information on Starscream would have been classified to ensure no one ever found out anything about the Protoform X experiment, including where they got the idea from as a way to cover all of their bases. And possibly to ensure no one would ever get the bright idea to try and replicate Starscream's immortal spark again, given the disaster X turned out to be.

The intention is clear, they WERE meant to be that ignorant, and the writers screwed that up by showing that they didn't NEED to be. That's it, end of story.

Maybe you should watch the episodes again, or something, because every indication I see from the show is that they were not as ignorant of their own history as you suggest, nor was that much suggested to be withheld beyond the files on Starscream and travel to Earth.