TF Views

andersonh1 wrote:No one's talked about the last issue, and maybe it's because you all found it just as hilariously bad as I did. Okay, sure, this is a different continuity than IDW's other books, but is Furman seriously making the case that Transformers have no free will? That all it takes to make them murderous Decepticons is to essentially flip a switch, even if it's more complicated than that? Is the reverse true? Could Megatron have been rehabilitated by a reverse application of Scorponok's "genetic" modifications?

The dialogue of the characters turned "evil" was awful. At least the appearance of Primus down at the heart of Cybertron was a bright spot. It will be interesting to see where that storyline goes.

I think this is more along the lines of Beast Machines where Megatron was "corrupting" the sparks of his vehicon generals.

That was overly simplistic too, of course, wasn't it? It has been years since I saw Beast Machines. But I got the impression Anderson wouldn't have been any more impressed by the way it was handled there.

I don't think "turning evil" has ever been a good idea since fiction began... =/

Beast Wars might be a better comparison than Beast Machines, since in that series we have Maximals converted into Predacons via mechanical means. Blackarachnia is a prime example. A whole episode was devoted to watching Rhinox remove the shell program that made her "evil". The more I think about it, the more it seems very similar to what Regeneration One is doing, and it occurs to me that some of BA's evil dialogue isn't much better than that of Perceptor and the others in RG1. Of course she was programmed by Tarantulus, a certified nutjob, so some over the top villainy is perhaps only to be expected, but still...

Beast Machines is a different situation, since it's pretty clear that Waspinator and Silverbolt are trapped inside Jetstorm and Thrust, able to observe but not influence. So essentially Thrust and Jetstorm would be artificial intelligences, made "alive" by the spark of the actual living Transformer inside the robot body Megatron had constructed. So the two of them never actually became evil, they were just the power source for Megatron's simulacrums, as it were.

Rhinox/Tankorr is a different story. He's in the same situation until Rattrap messes with his memories, trapped and unable to influence Tankorr. After that it gets confusing, because apparently it was the writer's intention that Rhinox actually made the choice to go over to Megatron's side (hence the line from Optimus "Rhinox has made his choice"), while the acting and animation makes it appear as though his spark has been corrupted.

I think writers just can't quite decide whether Tranformers are alive and possess free will, or whether they have programming that can be altered. So we get both scenarios depending on the writer, and it can get annoying at times.

"Beast Machines" got all mystical and magical about it. (Sparks have become one of my least favourite parts of the franchise, and my regard for them continues to drop.)

Beast Machines is a different situation, since it's pretty clear that Waspinator and Silverbolt are trapped inside Jetstorm and Thrust, able to observe but not influence. So essentially Thrust and Jetstorm would be artificial intelligences, made "alive" by the spark of the actual living Transformer inside the robot body Megatron had constructed. So the two of them never actually became evil, they were just the power source for Megatron's simulacrums, as it were.

Not quite. Waspinator was wholly along for the ride. And, there was a line from Silverbolt in season 2 that established Jetstorm as drawing on elements of Silverbolt's personality. (The implication was the Silverbolt's overly heroic image in BW was partly him hiding his darker urges. He actually enjoyed being Jetstorm.)

I don't think "turning evil" has ever been a good idea since fiction began... =/

It depends on execution. "Brother v/s brother" has resonance with audiences. Having an enemy be a former ally can provide a good excuse for the hero to be reluctant about simply dispatching their foe.

In this case, Furman is probably going for some kind of "what really differentiates Autobots and Decepticons?" angle. I will be (happily) suprised if any of the turns stick. In any case, I am willing to give Furman a chance on this. (After getting his leash yanked a few years ago, he seems to have straightened up.)


Dom
-not sure about the dialogue of the corrupted Autobots, given how little of it there is.

Gomess wrote:That was overly simplistic too, of course, wasn't it? It has been years since I saw Beast Machines. But I got the impression Anderson wouldn't have been any more impressed by the way it was handled there.

I don't think "turning evil" has ever been a good idea since fiction began... =/

I think it's more about control. At least in BM. Megatron needed drones with free will but that he could still control. The problem with that is that with free will control is just an illusion. That might be where Furman is going with this too.

Shockwave wrote:I think it's more about control. At least in BM. Megatron needed drones with free will but that he could still control. The problem with that is that with free will control is just an illusion. That might be where Furman is going with this too.

I'm not sure the narrative has shown that much depth up to this point, but it could be going in that direction.

Dominic wrote:"Beast Machines" got all mystical and magical about it. (Sparks have become one of my least favourite parts of the franchise, and my regard for them continues to drop.)

Sparks were mystical right from the start, all the way back in (the appropriately named) "The Spark", Airrazor's introductory episode. At that point, they are the equivalent of a Transformers' soul. Beast Machines keeps that, but also makes them something that can be physically manipulated and that can exist apart from a body, assuming someone has the knowledge and the right tools. If anything, Beast Machines demystified sparks.

Not quite. Waspinator was wholly along for the ride.

He was along for the ride, and enjoying it, but he wasn't in the driver's seat.

And, there was a line from Silverbolt in season 2 that established Jetstorm as drawing on elements of Silverbolt's personality. (The implication was the Silverbolt's overly heroic image in BW was partly him hiding his darker urges. He actually enjoyed being Jetstorm.)

He did enjoy it. He talks about Megatron stripping away his moral code, and reveling in the experience. He's feeling guilty for enjoying what Jetstorm did. And yes, Megatron says that his spark was chosen for a reason, and that Silverbolt's personality trait of "fighting for a just cause" helped inform Jetstorm's personality. But unless Silverbolt had a different experience than Rhinox, he wasn't actually in control of Jetstorm. Rhinox describes being trapped inside Tankor, unable to reach the surface and communicate, but able to watch and learn. I think Silverbolt and Waspinator had the same experience.

I think it's more about control. At least in BM. Megatron needed drones with free will but that he could still control. The problem with that is that with free will control is just an illusion. That might be where Furman is going with this too.

This is not a question of "zombie troopers". (They already did that gimmick.) This is likely to be a question of defining the difference between the two factions.

Sparks were mystical right from the start, all the way back in (the appropriately named) "The Spark", Airrazor's introductory episode. At that point, they are the equivalent of a Transformers' soul. Beast Machines keeps that, but also makes them something that can be physically manipulated and that can exist apart from a body, assuming someone has the knowledge and the right tools. If anything, Beast Machines demystified sparks.

"Beast Machines" was more a question of establishing the magic. Rather than having sparks be less defined, and more abstract, BM made then a solid thing. It was similar to my complaint about Furman's over-use of Unicron. Rather than having Unicron and Primus be things that some TFs believed in, they became things that were a part of daily life on Cybertron.

He did enjoy it. He talks about Megatron stripping away his moral code, and reveling in the experience. He's feeling guilty for enjoying what Jetstorm did. And yes, Megatron says that his spark was chosen for a reason, and that Silverbolt's personality trait of "fighting for a just cause" helped inform Jetstorm's personality. But unless Silverbolt had a different experience than Rhinox, he wasn't actually in control of Jetstorm. Rhinox describes being trapped inside Tankor, unable to reach the surface and communicate, but able to watch and learn. I think Silverbolt and Waspinator had the same experience.

Megatron did install safeties on the generals, as evidenced by Tankorr. They could contemplate betraying Megatron. They could even lie to Megatron. But, if they physically attacked Megatron, they would seize up. I always guessed that Megatron used the sparks in much the same way that people used stolen, or open source, code as the foundation for custom computer programs. The complicated foundational stuff is taken care of, leaving the programmer free to make their changes.

Ironically, Jetstorm was arguably the only truly evil Vehicon. (Note his penchant for sadism and depravity, absent even from Megatron at that point.)


Dom

Dominic wrote:"Beast Machines" was more a question of establishing the magic. Rather than having sparks be less defined, and more abstract, BM made then a solid thing. It was similar to my complaint about Furman's over-use of Unicron. Rather than having Unicron and Primus be things that some TFs believed in, they became things that were a part of daily life on Cybertron.

So...wouldn't that count as 'de-mystifying' them? In BW they were these ethereal, poorly-defined 'soul' thingies. In BM, they were developed as physical things, basically the core part of the Transformer that operated whatever shell/body they happened to be in. I'm not sure what your complaints are about, sparks were definitely made LESS magical for the purposes of Beast Machines. It'd be like, after all these years of debate over whether humans have 'souls' and what they entail, someone dug around and went "Actually, look, there's this physical thing in a human that has their core consciousness and personality stored, I guess you could basically call this the soul, and now we totally know where it is and how it works!"

Ghost in the Shell did that, actually, now that I think about it.

Megatron did install safeties on the generals, as evidenced by Tankorr. They could contemplate betraying Megatron. They could even lie to Megatron. But, if they physically attacked Megatron, they would seize up. I always guessed that Megatron used the sparks in much the same way that people used stolen, or open source, code as the foundation for custom computer programs. The complicated foundational stuff is taken care of, leaving the programmer free to make their changes.

It is always worth pointing out that the personalities of the Generals were functionally the opposites of the sparks they were based on.

Ironically, Jetstorm was arguably the only truly evil Vehicon. (Note his penchant for sadism and depravity, absent even from Megatron at that point.)

Jetstorm remains one of my favorite TF characters throughout the franchise, as much for what he embodied in terms of characterization, as well as having some top-notch voice acting. All three of the original Vehicon Generals were pretty great as an idea, though.

BWprowl wrote:

Dominic wrote:"Beast Machines" was more a question of establishing the magic. Rather than having sparks be less defined, and more abstract, BM made then a solid thing. It was similar to my complaint about Furman's over-use of Unicron. Rather than having Unicron and Primus be things that some TFs believed in, they became things that were a part of daily life on Cybertron.

So...wouldn't that count as 'de-mystifying' them? In BW they were these ethereal, poorly-defined 'soul' thingies. In BM, they were developed as physical things, basically the core part of the Transformer that operated whatever shell/body they happened to be in. I'm not sure what your complaints are about, sparks were definitely made LESS magical for the purposes of Beast Machines. It'd be like, after all these years of debate over whether humans have 'souls' and what they entail, someone dug around and went "Actually, look, there's this physical thing in a human that has their core consciousness and personality stored, I guess you could basically call this the soul, and now we totally know where it is and how it works!"

Ghost in the Shell did that, actually, now that I think about it.

That is precisely Dom's point, although he words it completely wrong. Dom hates the fact that BM made sparks corporeal and made them a thing that could definitely be established. In other words, Dom preferred it when sparks were something that you maybe believed in, but couldn't conclusively prove. (Nevermind that this was never the case, with BW having several explicit examples of characters 'carrying around' and interacting with sparks.)

That said, recent fiction has done a lot to undo that. IDW doesn't even acknowledge sparks, I don't think--and when they do, they jargon it up with a shitload of other stuff, and there are still plenty of non-spark-related ways to die. (Remember the dude who killed himself in RID by transforming so much that his transformation cog burned out, and he died?) The movies and Prime definitely seem like they're taking more of a mystical approach to it--the movie TFs only mention sparks as if they're something more equivalent to a heart than a soul.

Onslaught Six wrote:That is precisely Dom's point, although he words it completely wrong. Dom hates the fact that BM made sparks corporeal and made them a thing that could definitely be established. In other words, Dom preferred it when sparks were something that you maybe believed in, but couldn't conclusively prove. (Nevermind that this was never the case, with BW having several explicit examples of characters 'carrying around' and interacting with sparks.)

Which is what I don't get, why would he hate that? Wouldn't taking something that had previously been this stupid mystical gibberwank thing and establishing it instead as an actual physical component of Transformer physiology be preferable to leaving it as some poorly-defined psuedo-soul? For Dom, I mean.

That said, recent fiction has done a lot to undo that. IDW doesn't even acknowledge sparks, I don't think--and when they do, they jargon it up with a shitload of other stuff, and there are still plenty of non-spark-related ways to die. (Remember the dude who killed himself in RID by transforming so much that his transformation cog burned out, and he died?)

Nah, IDW totally acknowleges sparks. Remember how there's that prison where really dangerous prisoners have had their sparks extracted and they just keep them isolated in boxes with their names on them?

Pretty sure someone (Chromedome?) talked about Sparks in the last issue of MTMTE too, being the thing that that 'innermost Energon' surrounds. So they're definitely a physical thing in IDW.

The movies and Prime definitely seem like they're taking more of a mystical approach to it--the movie TFs only mention sparks as if they're something more equivalent to a heart than a soul.

Wait, how in the hell is a heart more mystical than a soul?