TF Views

Sparky Prime wrote:I still don't agree. Clearly Sunstreaker isn't in his right mind after the experience, but genocide of an entire species? To use the rape analogy, if someone is raped, do they want to kill all the men (or women) in the world? In general, I doubt it. I could understand a level of insecurity around that group of people afterwords, but in general I believe the anger is directed solely on those responsible, not everyone of that gender.

That's different--men and/or women are still part of your own species. We are conditioned to sympathise with our other humans, generally. This is, as ShockTrek said, more like if a colony of ants raped you.

Onslaught Six wrote:That's different--men and/or women are still part of your own species. We are conditioned to sympathise with our other humans, generally. This is, as ShockTrek said, more like if a colony of ants raped you.

I don't see it as being that different, the principal is still the same. You still don't want to kill everyone based on the few actually responsible. Like with the ants thing, why would you want to kill the ants in, say South Africa, when it was the ants in your own backyard? Why would you care about those other ants? You wouldn't. You'd only want the ants in your own backyard gone.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:That's different--men and/or women are still part of your own species. We are conditioned to sympathise with our other humans, generally. This is, as ShockTrek said, more like if a colony of ants raped you.

I don't see it as being that different, the principal is still the same. You still don't want to kill everyone based on the few actually responsible. Like with the ants thing, why would you want to kill the ants in, say South Africa, when it was the ants in your own backyard? Why would you care about those other ants? You wouldn't. You'd only want the ants in your own backyard gone.

Again, you're right if someone is thinking rationally. Sunstreaker clearly wasn't. His anger was dictating his actions, not his intellect.

The scale of the insult also matters.


The reason I mentioned non-sociopaths not relating to animals was to point out that even normal/sane people do not always relate well outside their species. If one is a sociopath, they will have a hard enough time with their own kind, let alone another species.

Sunsteaker was justifiably angry, and wanted a spectacular display of violence in response.


Is the whole reason this bothers you the fact it reqires an Autobot to be genocidal?

Dom
-really hopes not.

andersonh1 wrote:Again, you're right if someone is thinking rationally. Sunstreaker clearly wasn't. His anger was dictating his actions, not his intellect.

And again, I acknowledge Sunstreaker wasn't in his right mind, but that still doesn't mean he'd make the jump from a selective group to wanting genocide of the entire species.

"Dominic"]The reason I mentioned non-sociopaths not relating to animals was to point out that even normal/sane people do not always relate well outside their species. If one is a sociopath, they will have a hard enough time with their own kind, let alone another species.

Doesn't make your argument any less of a logical fallacy. There is no way you could possibly predict how a sociopath might react in that kind of situation, much less trying to compare that to a non-sociopath and animals.

Is the whole reason this bothers you the fact it reqires an Autobot to be genocidal?

Not at all. The whole reason this bothers me is Sunstreaker, even as a sociopath, doesn't strike me as the genocidal type, or the type of guy who'd let someone else (the Decepticons) fight his fights. He's more of the "mono-a-mono" type who'd want to take out his own revenge against Machination and Scorponok, and not just let the Decpeticons wipe out all of humanity.

Sparky Prime wrote:And again, I acknowledge Sunstreaker wasn't in his right mind, but that still doesn't mean he'd make the jump from a selective group to wanting genocide of the entire species.

Not at all. The whole reason this bothers me is Sunstreaker, even as a sociopath, doesn't strike me as the genocidal type, or the type of guy who'd let someone else (the Decepticons) fight his fights. He's more of the "mono-a-mono" type who'd want to take out his own revenge against Machination and Scorponok, and not just let the Decpeticons wipe out all of humanity.

To quote Costas:

Costas! wrote:"He's got a rage in him against all the Transformers because of what they did to Earth, and even though the rebuilding process has gone well, the emotional scars heal much slower."

Spike is a parallel to Sunstreaker here. Spike is angry because of what the Transformers have done to him and his planet, just as Sunstreaker is angry because of what the humans did to him--and both are overreacting, placing the blame on the entirety of a species instead of a select group. The problem here is that neither side truly sees the other as an equal--they see the other as something with less sentience than they, which is half the point. Even in the earliest IDW stories, I'm pretty sure Sunstreaker refers to Verity and Hunter and co as "Its" instead of actually referring to them as if they were people.

Onslaught Six wrote:Spike is a parallel to Sunstreaker here. Spike is angry because of what the Transformers have done to him and his planet, just as Sunstreaker is angry because of what the humans did to him--and both are overreacting, placing the blame on the entirety of a species instead of a select group. The problem here is that neither side truly sees the other as an equal--they see the other as something with less sentience than they, which is half the point. Even in the earliest IDW stories, I'm pretty sure Sunstreaker refers to Verity and Hunter and co as "Its" instead of actually referring to them as if they were people.

There is a huge difference between Spike and Sunstreaker here. Machination was a personal attack on Sunstreaker. The Decepticons attack was an impersonal invasion of Earth. Add on top of that, Spike doesn't know the difference between Autobots and Decepticons beyond that they don't seem to get along with each other. Sunstreaker on the other-hand has had more experience with humans. He knows from his 'bond' with Hunter and co that not all humans are like the ones with Machination. And again, he knows Machination is but one small group compared to the entire population. I'm not so sure Sunstreaker would still see humans as such inferior creatures after his Headmaster experience either. He may have started out that way, but he got to know them (Hunter especially) a lot more as the story progressed.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Onslaught Six wrote:That's different--men and/or women are still part of your own species. We are conditioned to sympathise with our other humans, generally. This is, as ShockTrek said, more like if a colony of ants raped you.

I don't see it as being that different, the principal is still the same. You still don't want to kill everyone based on the few actually responsible. Like with the ants thing, why would you want to kill the ants in, say South Africa, when it was the ants in your own backyard? Why would you care about those other ants? You wouldn't. You'd only want the ants in your own backyard gone.

Yes I would. If ants invade my house that's one thing. I kill all the ants that invade the house and hope they don't come back. But if ants invade my ass, you can bet YOUR ass that I'll track down every one of the damn things on the planet and anhilate every last one of them so that they never attack MY ass ever again.

Shockwave wrote:Yes I would. If ants invade my house that's one thing. I kill all the ants that invade the house and hope they don't come back. But if ants invade my ass, you can bet YOUR ass that I'll track down every one of the damn things on the planet and anhilate every last one of them so that they never attack MY ass ever again.

Seriously? I couldn't imagine such a gross overreaction. Sure such an attack would be terrible, but killing the entire species over it when only a small handful were responsible? Such a waste on so many levels.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Shockwave wrote:Yes I would. If ants invade my house that's one thing. I kill all the ants that invade the house and hope they don't come back. But if ants invade my ass, you can bet YOUR ass that I'll track down every one of the damn things on the planet and anhilate every last one of them so that they never attack MY ass ever again.

Seriously? I couldn't imagine such a gross overreaction. Sure such an attack would be terrible, but killing the entire species over it when only a small handful were responsible? Such a waste on so many levels.

Well yeah it is a waste. On SO many levels. Three of my ex girlfriends were rape victims. It messes people up in ways that are completely unfathomable. What Sunstreaker experienced was terrible. It was terrible to the point that when he sees a human, he doesn't see that particular individual. He sees the humans that hurt him. He's reminded of the most traumatic event in his millions+ years existence and relives that nightmare every time he sees any human. He found the means to make them all go away and never be reminded of that ever again and maybe actually start healing.

Then, in addition to all of that "normal" psychotrauma, he's also got this going on: I used ants as the example because I really hate ants. I actually would like to kill all the ants on the planet. I don't for several reasons not the least of which is the fact that such an endeavor would be redonkulously time and money consumptive. Plus, not all the ants on the planet are actively bugging me right now, so I just deal with the ones that invade when they invade.

So Sunstreaker has the "exterminator" mentality to begin with and then he adds the "I can't deal with reliving this trauma again" mentality further mixed with a healthy dose of "I want closure". All of that equals genocidal.