TF Views

Roberts probably does not hate transforming so much as he wants to write a comic that does not focus on transforming. ("GI Joe" has less military imagery than one might think. This is especially true for DDP and late-Marvel era. It is more "vaguely military superheroes" than anything else. Contrast it with...even something like 40K.)

BWprowl wrote:No, see, because Slott still has Spider-Man doin' Spider-Man stuff in the comics.

Except for that time he had Doc Ock doing Spider-Man stuff instead of Spider-Man.

I get the complaint that the Transformers could use their alt modes a bit more in the comic, but I'm not getting where the idea Roberts actually has a "contempt" for them transforming comes from. In an interview he gave with The Underbase (about the Shadowplay story arc), he mentioned "Very little transformation goes on within “More Than Meets The Eye”, but the concept of transformation and what it means to be able to have two body shapes is essential to so much of what the story is about." I mean, he was the one who introduced the whole concept of the Functionalist government prior to the war, giving jobs to citizens specifically based on what they transform into. An idea that keeps coming up as he's explored the flaws in that system and the idea of the Transformers having free will and wants to explore their own interests despite what they transform into as well as forms and abilities that can't be so easily categorized.

Sparky Prime wrote:Except for that time he had Doc Ock doing Spider-Man stuff instead of Spider-Man.

Otto *was* Spider-Man in that story arc. It was still about a Spider-Man Spider-Man-ing it up. You might as well argue that Spider-Man 2099 doesn't count, at that rate.

I mean, he was the one who introduced the whole concept of the Functionalist government prior to the war, giving jobs to citizens specifically based on what they transform into. An idea that keeps coming up as he's explored the flaws in that system and the idea of the Transformers having free will and wants to explore their own interests despite what they transform into as well as forms and abilities that can't be so easily categorized.

But that Functionalist BS is the entire foundation of his repeated in-story criticisms of Transformation as a concept, and those who like it. That's his point: That caring about Transformers based on what they transform into and do with their altmodes is *bad* and they shouldn't have anything to do with that. I mean, just look at the characters and how he illustrates that: Tarn is basically the worst guy in the entire universe, and he is *addicted* to Transforming. Meanwhile, Rung and Rewind, two of the biggest paragons of virtue and greatness in his story, have pointless altmodes that they never use. There's a pretty clear Transforming=Bad theme happening.

And he can't even illustrate it *properly*, per my repeated issue-taking with his inability to show instead of telling. Megatron's entire movement and uprising was predicated on him being forced into a laborer's role on account of his altmode, but we've never even SEEN Young Megatron's altmode. We never see ANY of the miners turning into, I guess, mining vehicles or constructions trucks or what-have-you, despite the repeated accusations that they were forced into those jobs because of those altmodes. So why don't we ever, you know, SEE them using those altmodes for those jobs, instead of working with pickaxes in robot modes?

BWprowl wrote:Otto *was* Spider-Man in that story arc. It was still about a Spider-Man Spider-Man-ing it up. You might as well argue that Spider-Man 2099 doesn't count, at that rate.

Doc Ock wasn't Spider-Man, he *brain swapped* with Spidey, that doesn't make him Spidey. That's identity theft to an extreme. Where as Spider-Man 2099 is a legacy character, who never tried to be the original Spidey.

But that Functionalist BS is the entire foundation of his repeated in-story criticisms of Transformation as a concept, and those who like it. That's his point: That caring about Transformers based on what they transform into and do with their altmodes is *bad* and they shouldn't have anything to do with that. I mean, just look at the characters and how he illustrates that: Tarn is basically the worst guy in the entire universe, and he is *addicted* to Transforming. Meanwhile, Rung and Rewind, two of the biggest paragons of virtue and greatness in his story, have pointless altmodes that they never use. There's a pretty clear Transforming=Bad theme happening.

I really don't see where you're getting your interpretation of the story from... The Functionalist concept has nothing to do with suggesting alt modes is bad. It's about the idea that there is *more* to the Transformers than just what they transform into, and that they have their own wants and skills beyond whatever their alt mode is. In that way, Roberts is showing us that the Transformers are not mere robots built to do a specific function, they are alive and have their own free will. The thing with Rung in-particular is that no body even knows what his alt mode is *supposed to be*. That doesn't mean it's useless though. Rewind... what would you expect him to be able to do in his memory stick form? Really, did ANY of the cassettes do much of anything in that form in G1? Not exactly something exclusive to MTMTE there. And with Tarn, I think that's meant to be a world-building thing. For humans, there are things we do normally and naturally that when done excessively becomes harmful, it makes sense that such things would also exist for Cybertronians. The book is filled with afflictions that Transformers can suffer from after all.

And he can't even illustrate it *properly*, per my repeated issue-taking with his inability to show instead of telling. Megatron's entire movement and uprising was predicated on him being forced into a laborer's role on account of his altmode, but we've never even SEEN Young Megatron's altmode. We never see ANY of the miners turning into, I guess, mining vehicles or constructions trucks or what-have-you, despite the repeated accusations that they were forced into those jobs because of those altmodes. So why don't we ever, you know, SEE them using those altmodes for those jobs, instead of working with pickaxes in robot modes?

Well we did actually see Megatron's miner alt mode waaaay back in "Megatron Origin". But so what? What difference would it make if we actually see him in his alt mode or not? There is at least some indication of what they turn into evident in their robot modes to give us an idea, even if we don't see the alt mode itself.

I think Prowl is alluding to what I call the Martian Manhunter problem. In the 2000s Justice League series, we barely--if ever--see J'onn use his human disguise. We can infer that he might have it, but we almost NEVER see it. Granted, we also barely see Batman's, Supes', Wally, John or the others, but most of them are actually expanded upon. J'onn's never really is, and I think that makes him the weakest portrayed main character in JL and JLU.

Sparky Prime wrote:Doc Ock wasn't Spider-Man, he *brain swapped* with Spidey, that doesn't make him Spidey. That's identity theft to an extreme. Where as Spider-Man 2099 is a legacy character, who never tried to be the original Spidey.

The comic was about a dude with spider-powers webbing around stopping bad guys with said spider-powers, and balancing his personal life with the responsibilities brought on by those powers. Parker or no Parker, it was as Spider-Man as Spider-Man gets, just with its own twists and ideas applied.

I’m continuously baffled by your projecting dismissal and hung-up attitude over a comic you didn’t even read. At any rate, we can move this element of the discussion down into the regular comics thread, this topic is hardly the place for it.

I really don't see where you're getting your interpretation of the story from... The Functionalist concept has nothing to do with suggesting alt modes is bad.

What about the solid page of text in the middle of the latest issue that all but says “Being interested in what Transformers turn into and what they do with their altmodes is horrible”?

It's about the idea that there is *more* to the Transformers than just what they transform into, and that they have their own wants and skills beyond whatever their alt mode is. In that way, Roberts is showing us that the Transformers are not mere robots built to do a specific function, they are alive and have their own free will.

See, we already knew that about Transformers. I don’t think anyone reading a Transformers comic these days questions that TFs are sentient aliens with their own free wills. Transformation isn’t some tacked-on functionality that TFs shouldn’t want to have, it comes as naturally to them as breathing, or walking. Changing shape is what they *do*. You wouldn’t write a story where a person would piss and moan about having thumbs, and go around picking things up with their feet in protest. They are *Transformers*, they *transform*. Incorporate that.

Rewind... what would you expect him to be able to do in his memory stick form? Really, did ANY of the cassettes do much of anything in that form in G1? Not exactly something exclusive to MTMTE there.

Well that’s the thing, when they first brought up that Rewind’s altmode was a memory stick (a logical update of the G1 version’s cassette form) I was curious as to how that was employed. What does he DO with that form, how does utilizing it play into his management and playback of data? It might be interesting to see that illustrated but NOPE, Roberts just *tells* us what he turns into and we never get a demonstration of how that actually WORKS.

The cassettes in earlier G1 fiction did manage to use their altmodes. They folded up for storage, they were spies that would play back secret recordings in that mode, they would use the compact nature of them to infiltrate places. The writers found creative ways to incorporate that big, defining element of the characters and the franchise. Roberts, on the other hand, seems resentful that he has to acknowledge that his characters even have altmodes.

And with Tarn, I think that's meant to be a world-building thing. For humans, there are things we do normally and naturally that when done excessively becomes harmful, it makes sense that such things would also exist for Cybertronians. The book is filled with afflictions that Transformers can suffer from after all.

That still doesn’t steer away from the fact that Roberts is saying, on the page, “Guy who transforms a lot, bad! Guys who never transform, good!”

Well we did actually see Megatron's miner alt mode waaaay back in "Megatron Origin". But so what? What difference would it make if we actually see him in his alt mode or not? There is at least some indication of what they turn into evident in their robot modes to give us an idea, even if we don't see the alt mode itself.

When the character’s entire motivation is rooted in a caste system that allegedly discriminated against others and forced them to perform particular tasks because their altmodes were suited to it, it stands to reason it should be *illustrated*, showing the characters actually having to use their ALTMODES for those tasks. It undermines Megatron’s (and Roberts’s) entire point when the laborers are all only ever shown in robot mode, because at that rate, anybody really could do any job, so long as they had a pickaxe in their hand. You can’t tell us that the miners’ altmodes were their defining characteristic that caused their plights, and then not illustrate for us WHAT was so defining and pointed about those altmodes that they all had to BE miners, despite not actually using those altmodes for, you know, MINING.

Onslaught Six wrote:I think Prowl is alluding to what I call the Martian Manhunter problem. In the 2000s Justice League series, we barely--if ever--see J'onn use his human disguise. We can infer that he might have it, but we almost NEVER see it. Granted, we also barely see Batman's, Supes', Wally, John or the others, but most of them are actually expanded upon. J'onn's never really is, and I think that makes him the weakest portrayed main character in JL and JLU.

Not really? It'd be more like if the show told us J'onn had all these cool shape-shifting mass-displacement Martian powers, and then never actually showed him using them. And then told us we were bad people for being interested in his powers.

BWprowl wrote:What about the solid page of text in the middle of the latest issue that all but says “Being interested in what Transformers turn into and what they do with their altmodes is horrible”?

About about the CONTEXT in what that is actually in reference to? You're making that out to be like Roberts said that directly to the fans when it's meant to be taken as Megatron addressing the Functionalist government perspective of categorizing by alt mode.

See, we already knew that about Transformers. I don’t think anyone reading a Transformers comic these days questions that TFs are sentient aliens with their own free wills. Transformation isn’t some tacked-on functionality that TFs shouldn’t want to have, it comes as naturally to them as breathing, or walking. Changing shape is what they *do*. You wouldn’t write a story where a person would piss and moan about having thumbs, and go around picking things up with their feet in protest. They are *Transformers*, they *transform*. Incorporate that.

We as fans might already know that, but given how some writers have handled the Transformers, there is sometimes very little to really give them a life of their own. Roberts on the other hand really expands on their sentience in so many ways by focusing on elements that really hasn't ever been introduced or explored before.

Well that’s the thing, when they first brought up that Rewind’s altmode was a memory stick (a logical update of the G1 version’s cassette form) I was curious as to how that was employed. What does he DO with that form, how does utilizing it play into his management and playback of data? It might be interesting to see that illustrated but NOPE, Roberts just *tells* us what he turns into and we never get a demonstration of how that actually WORKS.

We have seen Rewind use his alt mode in MTMTE before. Particularly, we saw him use it in the Annual, albeit not for anything to do with him being a memory stick. And what's to demonstrate? His alt mode is designed to store data. That's it.

The cassettes in earlier G1 fiction did manage to use their altmodes. They folded up for storage, they were spies that would play back secret recordings in that mode, they would use the compact nature of them to infiltrate places. The writers found creative ways to incorporate that big, defining element of the characters and the franchise. Roberts, on the other hand, seems resentful that he has to acknowledge that his characters even have altmodes.

WOO! Storage! What an AMAZING use of an alt mode! Whenever they really did anything, they transformed to 'robot' mode, I haven't really seen anyone come up with a creative use for a cassette form. This is nothing new.

That still doesn’t steer away from the fact that Roberts is saying, on the page, “Guy who transforms a lot, bad! Guys who never transform, good!”

Or maybe you're just reading too much into it, because that's not the impression I get out of that at all.

When the character’s entire motivation is rooted in a caste system that allegedly discriminated against others and forced them to perform particular tasks because their altmodes were suited to it, it stands to reason it should be *illustrated*, showing the characters actually having to use their ALTMODES for those tasks. It undermines Megatron’s (and Roberts’s) entire point when the laborers are all only ever shown in robot mode, because at that rate, anybody really could do any job, so long as they had a pickaxe in their hand. You can’t tell us that the miners’ altmodes were their defining characteristic that caused their plights, and then not illustrate for us WHAT was so defining and pointed about those altmodes that they all had to BE miners, despite not actually using those altmodes for, you know, MINING.

Why does it need to be illustrated when it's implied? I don't see anything that undermines Megatron's (or Roberts) point just because we don't see Megatron haling away ore with his vehicle mode. I don't think that's something that's necessary to be shown in the least, because seeing every little detail of Megatron's mining career isn't the point of the story.

But that Functionalist BS is the entire foundation of his repeated in-story criticisms of Transformation as a concept, and those who like it. That's his point: That caring about Transformers based on what they transform into and do with their altmodes is *bad* and they shouldn't have anything to do with that.

If anything, Roberts is calling out fans for focusing too much on alternate modes rather than the quality of the book itself. ("I lyk Stahscweem becuz he turns in to a fast jet!")

Focusing exclusively on TFs as transforming robots puts the property at the level of "MARS Converters" (a line sold in the toy aisle of Walgreens). I cannot blame Roberts for wanting to avoid that.

Why does it need to be illustrated when it's implied? I don't see anything that undermines Megatron's (or Roberts) point just because we don't see Megatron haling away ore with his vehicle mode. I don't think that's something that's necessary to be shown in the least, because seeing every little detail of Megatron's mining career isn't the point of the story.

It would add flavor. But, seeing Megatron's alternatemode is not the point of the story any more than the lack of transforming is the biggest problem with either book right now.

Dominic wrote:Focusing exclusively on TFs as transforming robots puts the property at the level of "MARS Converters" (a line sold in the toy aisle of Walgreens). I cannot blame Roberts for wanting to avoid that.

So when do we get to see Transformers in the book actually, you know, transform? Honestly, I'm not sure how seeing them switch modes when the situation calls for it is in any way dumbing down the writing.

I can kind of see why they don't transform very often given the setting (essentially Star Trek: Transformers). Part of the reason for transformation is disguise. That's been the whole point of the gimmick since day one. In a setting where they're constantly visiting other planets, it would be hard to illustrate that unless they were scanning new alt modes every time they reached a new planet.

As for Megatron, yeah, it is a little vexing as to why they need pickaxes when their alt modes probably are better suited to that function. That's something that should be shown. Especially if it's going to be a main plot point.