thoughts on the Beast-era

[Mako Crab]

STOP IT.

If he bothers you that much, skip over his posts. You can't control the way he thinks or feels. But you sure as hell can control the way you conduct yourself on this board and in the presense of other people. You're behaving like a f**king child. Sure, maybe everyone agrees with you on how to write, but you won't find one person that agrees with your behavior.

JUST STOP IT.

[Onslaught Six]

STOP IT.

If he bothers you that much, skip over his posts. You can't control the way he thinks or feels. But you sure as hell can control the way you conduct yourself on this board and in the presense of other people. You're behaving like a f**king child. Sure, maybe everyone agrees with you on how to write, but you won't find one person that agrees with your behavior.

JUST STOP IT.

And you're not helping! At this point: Wait for someone with authority to weigh in on the situation. This is basically an attack, and it makes you no better than those you wish to fight.

(And I never understood self-censoring on the Internet. We all know you meant to say "fuck." I think Scourge's sigpic still has the line 'Kill you with my dick, bitch' in it.)

[SynjoDeonecros]

I think that counts as outright attacking a moderator, doesn't it? ...Do we have rules against that? I mean, we kind of never set any up, but I assume there's unspoken rules. Something along the lines of "Don't be a complete dick," and I'm pretty sure Synjo's at the very least pushing that line, if not crossing it entirely.

Also: This is why I love Beast Machines. It's got enough stuff in it that it *can* be discussed ten years after the fact. Beast Wars? Nobody really has anything to say about that show other than, "Yeah, I guess it was kinda good. Sometimes."

I'm not threatening him with bodily harm or anything, and all I'm really wishing, at this point, is to be able to put him on my ignore list so I could bypass his posts entirely like any other person on here I have on my ignore list (I thought I understood why I couldn't; being a mod, he would have to be able to inform me of any moderating decisions about me and whatnot, and I thought putting him on ignore would not only hide his posts on the forum proper, but also block him from PMing me, but I remembered I still have you on my ignore list, for some reason, and you and I had a short PM discussion about this, so obviously "ignore" just affects the main forum, not PMs). If ANYTHING, I apologize for not taking this to PM and disrupting the discussion for everyone else. Believe me, if I COULD put him on ignore, this argument would've ceased quite a few pages ago.

Now, trying to simmer down and go back to the topic at hand, I guess you're right, Onslaught; the writers did make BM with the intention of heavy discussion, and they've certainly gotten it. I mean, look at the thread I created about the Oracle's plan; even with my "interference", it's broken into an admittedly fascinating debate of the type the writers were obviously going for.

[Mako Crab]

Meh. Self censoring is force of habit from having to deal with filters over the years, I guess. Faulk and Gawd are my censors of choice.

I don't mean to add fuel to the fire, but I'd just about heard enough. Leaving this thread now.

[Dominic]

No fault Mako. Given how much you clearly love BW and All, this must have been tough for you.

Thanks for the support O6. We try to avoid being overly legalistic here.

Mea culpable on that last post. I lost my temper And, while fully aware of what I was doing, posted exactly the kind of personal attack I was calling Synjo out on.

Dom
-will deal with this more in the morning.

[SynjoDeonecros]

No fault Mako. Given how much you clearly love BW and All, this must have been tough for you.

Thanks for the support O6. We try to avoid being overly legalistic here.

Mea culpable on that last post. I lost my temper And, while fully aware of what I was doing, posted exactly the kind of personal attack I was calling Synjo out on.

Dom
-will deal with this more in the morning.

Same. I don't go back to what I said about you, as it's my honest personal opinion of you from this flame war, but as I said, at the very least, I shouldn't have let that opinion blind me from what the war was doing to the others in the thread, and taken it to PM with you, to spare them the fallout. I'm willing to drop it and move on.

[Sparky Prime]

But, does this mean that the characters should become moral ends unto themselves? Having a defined character is useful for the purposes of articulating an idea. But, if too much priority is given to the characters, I would argue that more priority is being given than is at all reasonable or healthy.

If "identifying" is so important, what about plot or setting? A sense of place, or even the importance of a story's events can also draw the audience in.

I'm not even sure where to begin to respond to this... Obviously within a story there are several components, the most fundamental of which are: plot, setting, character, theme, and style; each of which are important, rather, essential to tell a story. And obviously there are various ways these can draw in an audience. Characters however aren't just there to articulate an idea, really they are more the element that tells the story itself, they are what drives the story (well there plot driven stories, but the plot is still events that happens to/around the characters). If you don't put a priority on the characters, the story turns out flat, uninteresting. I don't see how there can be 'too much priority' placed on the characters honestly or how that's not reasonable or healthy. Healthy stories have well developed characters.

I honestly don't know why you seem to not be able to see the importance of the characters.

[Dominic]

I want apologize again to the members. I lost my temper last night. I did not scream "you lie!" in the middle of a meeting. But, I was still out of order, not unlike 90% of the House of Commons.

I think that counts as outright attacking a moderator, doesn't it? ...Do we have rules against that?

There are no specific rules on this, as there has not been a need for them.

In any case, moderators would *not* receive special protection even if such rules were drafted.

thought putting him on ignore would not only hide his posts on the forum proper, but also block him from PMing me

I have not sent you any messages actually.

it has no principle, it has "overly-humanized" characters and stories focused more on them and their lives than some unifying system that every other aspect of the show is forced to conform to; it has virtually everything that he hates, in fiction, and has nothing in it that he likes, so why is he a fan of it, or a moderator on a forum about it?

If I wanted to be really nasty about this, I could argue that you are not a good fan.

There are TF stories that have ideas beyond "big robots am teh awsum".

"Reign of Starscream" is a recent example. Ditto for "All Hail Megatron". I am not sure which I like better. But, one of those is possibly the best thing I read from IDW. If you choose to ignore those, that is your decision. (By the way, I asked Mowry direcctly, and he confirmed I was right in my reading of RoS.) So far, Nick Roche has been pitching pretty high, and pretty accessible.

You will notice, I do not go on and on about how great the G1 cartoon, (aside from a bit that is good here or there), is. Nor do I praise BWII/Neo much.

There are stories I read for lower end variables. I started reading "Dark Avengers" largely for Bendis' dialogue, (which I saw in other books). The basic premise, (which I will likely post more about when the friggin' book ends in a month or two), appealled. I would be lying if I said I would not miss Osborn and Hand going back and forth. And, I like how Bendis works in subtle bits of realism into Osborn's dialogue and business model. But, it is the basic premise that has me interested.

And I have never, in my life, heard of ANYTHING like the shit this guy is touting as being the "real" way something should be written. NONE of the teachers I've had on literature has proposed what he's saying as the right way of writing a story, NONE of the good media that I've seen follow that formula, and those that I've seen that DO are overly preachy and sucktastic.

New ideas are scary. And, yeah, I am not the guy who is going to buy your book. And, I wager that you are not the guy who would have bought/read the publications I have worked for, locality aside, despite the fact that my "stories" had very colorful characters. (Granted, some of the "characters" would likely have disputed the truth of what I wrote, but anyway...)

I do understand fiction. Just check the comics thread. I tend to see it as more useful when written in certain ways. There is a huge difference between writing fables or polemic (as Ralph Peters does), and simply articulating an idea (which I was arguing for).

"Beast Wars is preachier, because the villains are more evil"

What I was getting at was that BW was arguably preacier because it just said "dese is good guyz and dese is da bad guys". "Beast Machines" gave characters on both sides credible moral ground.

toyhacks" (whatever that is; the way he's using it, sounds like a derogatory term for "moronic fanboy wasting away in his parents' basement instead of getting a clerical job at the local courthouse)

Toyhack is the phoenetic spelling of TOIHAAK, (The One I Had As A Kid). The term refers to people who think that the franchise or hobby of their youth, as it was then, is the best it ever way. This is similar to the fixation on a past, (often imagined), golden age some people fixate on. (Oh, the 50s were so much better....really. There was no social strife, well, unless you were black or something.)

Speaking as son of MA, I resent the jab at guys who take hack jobs. (Those clerks can actually do *really* well even without going off the books. Do not knock it.)

Also: This is why I love Beast Machines. It's got enough stuff in it that it *can* be discussed ten years after the fact. Beast Wars? Nobody really has anything to say about that show other than, "Yeah, I guess it was kinda good. Sometimes."

If you don't put a priority on the characters, the story turns out flat, uninteresting. I don't see how there can be 'too much priority' placed on the characters honestly or how that's not reasonable or healthy. Healthy stories have well developed characters.

As stated elsewhere, making characters moral ends unto themselves is putting too much priority on them.

They are one part of the story. But, the story has to have them doing/reacting to things. They have to be someplace. And, setting can be as important as character in drawing a reader in.

In the end though, characters are constructs that exist to serve the writers/copyright holders. Nothing more. Not writing something on the basis that it would not be in the characters's interests is foolish, (unless of course the story in question would harm the character in some editorial way, such as making Speedy a punch-line in any number of jokes).

Dom
-actually listens to NPR, reads The American Conservative and the NYTimes.

[SynjoDeonecros]

I want apologize again to the members. I lost my temper last night. I did not scream "you lie!" in the middle of a meeting. But, I was still out of order, not unlike 90% of the House of Commons.

it has no principle, it has "overly-humanized" characters and stories focused more on them and their lives than some unifying system that every other aspect of the show is forced to conform to; it has virtually everything that he hates, in fiction, and has nothing in it that he likes, so why is he a fan of it, or a moderator on a forum about it?

If I wanted to be really nasty about this, I could argue that you are not a good fan.

There are TF stories that have ideas beyond "big robots am teh awsum".

"Reign of Starscream" is a recent example. Ditto for "All Hail Megatron". I am not sure which I like better. But, one of those is possibly the best thing I read from IDW. If you choose to ignore those, that is your decision. (By the way, I asked Mowry direcctly, and he confirmed I was right in my reading of RoS.) So far, Nick Roche has been pitching pretty high, and pretty accessible.

You will notice, I do not go on and on about how great the G1 cartoon, (aside from a bit that is good here or there), is. Nor do I praise BWII/Neo much.

There are stories I read for lower end variables. I started reading "Dark Avengers" largely for Bendis' dialogue, (which I saw in other books). The basic premise, (which I will likely post more about when the friggin' book ends in a month or two), appealled. I would be lying if I said I would not miss Osborn and Hand going back and forth. And, I like how Bendis works in subtle bits of realism into Osborn's dialogue and business model. But, it is the basic premise that has me interested.

Interesting; All Hail Megatron is listed on TV Tropes under "Writer On Board" (aka, preachy author tract taken too far). Consistent with your attitude about story structure, but also a good example of how most people don't subscribe to it.

And I have never, in my life, heard of ANYTHING like the shit this guy is touting as being the "real" way something should be written. NONE of the teachers I've had on literature has proposed what he's saying as the right way of writing a story, NONE of the good media that I've seen follow that formula, and those that I've seen that DO are overly preachy and sucktastic.

New ideas are scary. And, yeah, I am not the guy who is going to buy your book. And, I wager that you are not the guy who would have bought/read the publications I have worked for, locality aside, despite the fact that my "stories" had very colorful characters. (Granted, some of the "characters" would likely have disputed the truth of what I wrote, but anyway...)

I do understand fiction. Just check the comics thread. I tend to see it as more useful when written in certain ways. There is a huge difference between writing fables or polemic (as Ralph Peters does), and simply articulating an idea (which I was arguing for).

I dunno; you seem to be on a political kick, now, and my story deals with the Japanese Meiji Restoration. Then again, it focuses mostly on the bugyo main character and his court, and their connection to the Shogunate and the ninja party sent after them, so you'd likely consider it too "humanizing" for you to enjoy.

"Beast Wars is preachier, because the villains are more evil"

What I was getting at was that BW was arguably preacier because it just said "dese is good guyz and dese is da bad guys". "Beast Machines" gave characters on both sides credible moral ground.

Credible? The Oracle Plan thread says that's really debatable. And as I said, Beast Wars wasn't just "these guys are good, these guys are evil"; the Predacons may not have a single, unifying "moral goal" to push them, but they DO have individual goals that they work toward - BW Megatron, as stated, was trying to change history to bring the Decepticons back on top and not suffer the indignity of an Autobot/Maximal supremacy. How is that "evil for the sake of evil"? Really, the only Predacons you could even make an argument for being shallow, "evil for the sake of evil" villains are Scorponok, Dinobot 2, and Quickstrike (the first two due to having nothing but their nebulous loyalty to Megs as their only character trait, and the latter for being a psychotic jerk).

toyhacks" (whatever that is; the way he's using it, sounds like a derogatory term for "moronic fanboy wasting away in his parents' basement instead of getting a clerical job at the local courthouse)

Toyhack is the phoenetic spelling of TOIHAAK, (The One I Had As A Kid). The term refers to people who think that the franchise or hobby of their youth, as it was then, is the best it ever way. This is similar to the fixation on a past, (often imagined), golden age some people fixate on. (Oh, the 50s were so much better....really. There was no social strife, well, unless you were black or something.)

Speaking as son of MA, I resent the jab at guys who take hack jobs. (Those clerks can actually do *really* well even without going off the books. Do not knock it.)

I think Penn and Teller did a show on that. What was it, the bullshit of nostalgia? As I said, at the very least, you cannot deny that, without Beast Wars, interest in Transformers would've died with Machine Wars, and none of the shows or toys we have, now, would exist.

[Dominic]

What was McCarthy "preaching" exactly? What action was he urging readers to take? Oh wait, a call to action is not needed. Just having articulating an idea is preachy.

How do you get ideas to write about if someone articulating an idea is preachy?

As I said, at the very least, you cannot deny that, without Beast Wars, interest in Transformers would've died with Machine Wars, and none of the shows or toys we have, now, would exist.

I had said that before. Yes. BW did save the franchise. But, saying it was the best TF series ever is setting the bar for the franchise really low. The well defined characters in BW were inconsistently portrayed over the course of the series, especially beginnings.

Dom
-and ninjas are not as awesome as Sabertooth.