TF Views

Dominic wrote:Plagiarism and homage are tough to define.

No they aren't. Plagiarism is copying someone else's work without given them credit thus giving the impression the copycat created it. A homage, gives respect or reverence to the original creator, as per the definition Shockwave posted, usually by repeating a recognizable scene or stylistic element, but is still an original work in and of itself, not a copy of the original.

I'm interested in what Dom would have to say about early 90s Valiant. I've said before--these books aren't exactly horribly cruddy. They *are* early 90s, so there's still some bits of it--there's a cruddy multi-crossover that interrupts Shadowman in Issues #5 and 6, I think it is. But even that makes it work, in a way. Shadowman gets pulled into the future and all the superheroes in the Valiant universe are fighting each other or some shit--I never got a clear answer and I never read the rest of the crossover.

Wow, "not totally cruddy", is high praise.

Seriously, I did not read much Valiant back in the day. Despite my age, I managed to avoid most of the hype books. For a time, shiny covers were a sure-fire way to get me to drop a book. I grudgingly picked up the fancy cover variant of "Transformers Generation 2", largely because I did not know about the general release edition. Part of this was economic, as said covers tend to be more expensive. (It would be like paying $10+ in today's money, and I had limited funds then as I do now.) But, the hype was also very tiresome.

Still, I did hear good things about Valiant.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Dominic wrote:Plagiarism and homage are tough to define.

No they aren't. Plagiarism is copying someone else's work without given them credit thus giving the impression the copycat created it. A homage, gives respect or reverence to the original creator, as per the definition Shockwave posted, usually by repeating a recognizable scene or stylistic element, but is still an original work in and of itself, not a copy of the original.

Recognizability is tough to monetize. How many people *really* recognize that Romita cover for example. (Yes, Coller credited Romita. But, how many people in or out of a comic store recognize it?)

And, how is work that duplicates/mimics pre-existing art an "original work in and of itself"?


Dom
-not sure he wants to be credited for Scourge's quote. 0_o

Shadowman gets pulled into the future and all the superheroes in the Valiant universe are fighting each other or some shit--I never got a clear answer and I never read the rest of the crossover.

Oh, that. Unity, yeah? Well, the important thing about Unity, is that the second issues of those crossover bits had Walt Simonson covers, and as such, were completely rad. Okay, as for the story, what happened was that when Solar (another Valiant guy, natch, done real nicely by Barry Windsor-Smith) got his powers, he accidentally blew up the world. Eh, happens, right? This also caused crazy powers to go to his...assistant, I think? Anyhoo, she took the name "Mothergod" and set up shop in...I think it was called "The Lost Land"? Wherever Turok hung out and fought dinosaurs, and used the lost land's status of being outside of normal time (I know, but it made sense then) to pull a lot of the future in there with her. What was she gonna do? I forget, but it was likely to be some bad shit, I'll tell you whut.

The upshot of this crossover for Shadowman was that he met and briefly romanced a future-girl, who told him about his life and said he'd die a horrible death in, I think, May, 1997. So up until that time, he was functionally immortal. That part of his story I enjoyed thoroughly, but I lost interest immediately afterwards when stuff like the new costume and Aerosmith guest-appearance went down. Still, Shadowman was a pretty decent read at first. It was, however, no X-O Manowar, which was essentially Conan the Barbarian in a suit of alien space armor.

Early Valiant=Pretty decent. Midrange Valiant=Eh. Late Valiant/Acclaim had some bright spots but it didn't seem to last too terribly long. It had some high-concept appeal, including the original Shadowman dying right about when he was supposed to (I think, mind might be playing tricks on me) and the idea that the new and substantially different Acclaim/Valiant Universe was created when the X-O guy went back to his own time with his crazy space armor and changed history. Had potential, but didn't last real long.

Oh. Another neat Valiant character? Magnus, Robot Fighter. Not technically theirs, they just bought the license, but a guy in the future that goes around beating robots to death with his bare hands. The execution wasn't amazing, but you can't beat the concept.

--Scourge, who read wwwaaaayyyy too many comics back in the 90's, and probably still does.

Dominic wrote:And, how is work that duplicates/mimics pre-existing art an "original work in and of itself"?

Does Coller cover look exactly like Romita's? No? It's not a duplicate then is it? Again, the point of a homage (in comics) is to repeat a recognizable scene, not copy it outright. It's an original work that uses the same poses as another work in order to honor that original piece. I don't see why it's so difficult for you to see the difference. And the homage is meant for those that would recognize it.

138 Scourge wrote:The upshot of this crossover for Shadowman was that he met and briefly romanced a future-girl, who told him about his life and said he'd die a horrible death in, I think, May, 1997. So up until that time, he was functionally immortal. That part of his story I enjoyed thoroughly, but I lost interest immediately afterwards when stuff like the new costume and Aerosmith guest-appearance went down. Still, Shadowman was a pretty decent read at first. It was, however, no X-O Manowar, which was essentially Conan the Barbarian in a suit of alien space armor.

The Shadowman stuff continues to be good after the new costume, which I actually prefer to the first one as it looks less stupidly superheroriffic. Considering it was the video game (which was based on the V2 Acclaim Shadowman) that got me interested in the series in the first place, I tend to associate that moreso with Shadowman. Eh.

Oh. Another neat Valiant character? Magnus, Robot Fighter. Not technically theirs, they just bought the license, but a guy in the future that goes around beating robots to death with his bare hands. The execution wasn't amazing, but you can't beat the concept.

Yeah, there's no beating that concept.

Ultimatum
Now that the Requiem stories came out last week, I figured I'd post some thoughts on this... disaster. I kinda feel it doesn't belong in this topic though because while it is a comic, it certainly is no where near awesome. Not in the good sense at any rate.

So basic premise of this story: Magneto changes the magnetic poles of the planet which causes world wide devastation and death as a response to the death of his children in Ultimates 3. Changing the magnetic poles was actually Magneto's plan back in Ultimate X-Men #30, but there he needed a special device (that he likened to Xavier's Cerebro) to amplify his powers, given his powers aren't strong enough to do something like that on his own. The X-Men foiled that plot though. Here, it's not clear how Magneto actually managed to shift the poles. He does have possession of Thor's hammer (which looks like 616 Thor's hammer rather than the Ultimate version) but at the end, we see Magneto repair the damaged he caused with no boost to his powers of any kind. He even does this despite being extremely weak from battle, loosing an arm, and was stabbed in the chest from Wolverine... So apparently there was no point in having Thor's hammer and Loeb screws up continuity at the same time. I also have no idea why Thor would leave his hammer behind like that anyway given it is supposed to be the source of his power along with his belt.

At any rate, more pointless (and most often overly grotesque) killings and chaos erupts as the remaining heroes try to recover and defend themselves from all the devastation. We find out Scarlett Witch's death was actually orchestrated by Dr. Doom, who inexplicably got back from the Zombie universe (seriously, he just shows up with absolutely no explanation of how he got back), but he miscalculated how angry Magneto would be. Even more inexplicably, he gets Zarda's help from the Squadron Supreme's universe (she apparently stayed in the Ultimate Universe after that crossover event), they go get Reed Richards and head to the Squadron's universe to get Ultimate Nick Fury back.

The attack on Magneto occurs, resulting in more pointless deaths, and Jean Grey (who despite having pretty much omnipotent powers from finally fully merging with the Phoenix Force not long ago in UXM, the most she does in this ENTIRE thing is this) links Fury and Magneto's minds to show Magneto that mutants aren't a natural evolution. Magneto realizes he was wrong and fixes the alignment of the poles, but Cyclops kills him anyway. You'd think that'd be the end of this mess but instead we get Cyclops giving a speech asking people not to blame all mutants for the destruction, and he is killed by Quicksliver (at super speed so they think there was a shooter among the protesters) revealed to be still alive after all. Then Thing goes and kills Dr. Doom (who has Namor locked in a tube for some unexplained reason) and that's where this thing finally ends.

You may notice, I avoid calling "Ultimatum" a story here, because a story is not what this is. This is a travesty. Basically all we get is Loeb unceremoniously slaughtering dozens of characters in the most brutal ways he can think of for nothing more than shock value. It's clear to me Loeb did not do his research on these Ultimate versions of the characters. And as I pointed out a few times above, he doesn't even bother to give us explanations on many points. It's just a mess of mindless death and destruction. No characterization, bad dialogue and even worst storytelling. It's a shame this is how the Ultimate Universe comes to an end which up until Loeb started work on Ultimates 3 had been among the best books Marvel was producing. Now, I'm not sure the "Ultimate Comics" relaunch will be worth it after this abomination.
1/10 - Only because I think Finch is a decent artist.

Now that the Requiem stories came out last week, I figured I'd post some thoughts on this... disaster. I kinda feel it doesn't belong in this topic though because while it is a comic, it certainly is no where near awesome. Not in the good sense at any rate.

Well, nobody is stopping you from starting a "Comics are Sucktastic" thread. And, hey, we could also have a "Comics are Mediocritastic" thread.

On the other hand, I plan to review upcoming "Archie" event in this thread, so hey.


I am not defending the story. It is a basic event driven pogromofest. (I saw a comic last week that makes it seem like all of the X-Men are dead.) This is actually the kind of thing that one would read "Ultimates" to avoid. I can actually see Magneto's point. (If somebody whacked your kids, how would you take it?) On the other hand, is Doctor Doom really *that* stupid? (Golly, I had no idea having one's daughter gunned down would make a guy that pissed off!)

But, I will take issue with blaming Loeb. There is no way he could have written this unless Marvel wanted it written. Blame Joey Q.


Dom
-wonders how much this will actually stick.

10 bucks says the whole thing is a Scarlett Witch acid trip.

Dominic wrote:Well, nobody is stopping you from starting a "Comics are Sucktastic" thread. And, hey, we could also have a "Comics are Mediocritastic" thread.

I was being sarcastic, y'know? Given how bad this story is and all...

I can actually see Magneto's point. (If somebody whacked your kids, how would you take it?)

Considering this is the Magneto that shot his own son in the kneecaps just for joining the Ultimates...

But, I will take issue with blaming Loeb. There is no way he could have written this unless Marvel wanted it written. Blame Joey Q.

While Joe Quesada I'd agree should share in the blame for ever approving this, Loeb must also share in that blame. As the writer for this atrocity, it was his responsibility to research the background of the Ultimate Universe in order to sync what he's writing with what's been done. Something he failed miserably at. As I pointed out, Magneto already tried the whole 'shifting the magnetic poles' thing before, only he needed to boost his powers to do it. Loeb makes it look easy given he shows a severely weakened Magneto perform that task on his own. Bruce Banner had learned some self control over the Hulk, but Loeb reduces him to a brute. Jean Grey is probably the most powerful being on the planet at this point, but all Loeb has her do is form a telepathic connection. And I could go on...

Good point about Magneto. I thought the whole lead up to Ultimatum being the finale of the last Ultimates story was anticlimactic at best and now having read the synopsis am glad I dropped all Marvel titles from my pull list. I think comic book and TV Networks and movie studios should hire the most hardcore fans of their works they can find just to avoid continuity errors. We'd still get stuff that sucks, but not because of lack of continuity.