All Hail Megatron Discussion thread

[Dominic]

The question is not how many people treat characters as ends unto themseles. ("Too many" is the answer.) The question is how reasonable/mature it is. Sometimes it looks like fans care more about the characters as individuals than actual people.

My comic shop has reported that there are people that will go in and buy absolutely anything with Wolverine on it just because it has Wolverine on it, even if he's not in the story.

This is as much a question of being a completist than caring about the characters. I used to see more people like that. But, after the mid-90s, that dropped off.

If Skywarp really sees Thundercracker as a 'big brother' type role, then why wouldn't he wait for Thundercracker to at least try to explain himself first? Seems to me that's a justification for making it a "why would you betray us brother?!" type moment. Instead he just accuses him of betrayal and blasts him. Not a very "civil" nor "brotherly" reaction, even assuming he was "pushed to the edge".

It is a question of expectations. Again, Skywarp is not the brightest bulb. He knows something is wrong, (as evidenced by his talk with Thundercracker after their little tiff with the Insecticons), but cannot quite understand it. But, he understands that Megatron is the boss and Thundercracker is his buddy. Thundercracker is his buddy who has been there since day 1. His buddy who is a bit smarter, but still his buddy. And, his buddy is a good Decepticon.

Skywarp knows Ramjet. He might warn Ramjet not to screw around. But, he does not expect much from Ramjet. (Skywarp even agrees to meet Ramjet the next day. He expects Ramjet to do the stupid thing he warned Ramjet not to do.) He expects more from Thundercracker. Just like a parent is more likely to yell at the "smart one" for being stupid, we tend to be harder on our peers when we expect better from them. When somebody deviates from expectations, we tend to be annoyed. When we have high expectations, we are even less forgiving.


Dom
-and Thundercracker did not meet expectations.

[BWprowl]

I agree that having the characters be too fluid is a bad thing. (See my rant about "Identity Crisis" in the comics thread.) That also diminishes their use. That god-awful Batman story where Leslie Thompkins lets a kid die to teach Batman a lesson is a good example. (Later retcons aside, I cannot understand how that one got published.)

Okay, I've mostly been lurking on this one, but can I just give a quick THANK YOU to you for panning 'War Crimes' here, Dom? Seriously, I hated that story so much that I hardly minded at all when I lost my copy some time ago. The fact that it bookended 'War Games', one of my favorite Batman stories, just made the suckitude of the whole thing sting more. So I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

Okay, continue on-topic now. Nothing to see here.

[Sparky Prime]

The question is not how many people treat characters as ends unto themseles. ("Too many" is the answer.) The question is how reasonable/mature it is. Sometimes it looks like fans care more about the characters as individuals than actual people.

I still don't see why it wouldn't be reasonable/mature to care just about the characters. Caring more about a fictional character than actual people would be taking it too far, but in terms of enjoying a story (as we've been discussing), if you like it just for the character(s), I don't see how you can be faulted for that. As I said before, I believe there are a lot of people who read a book simply for the character, and it isn't a question of being a completest.

It is a question of expectations.

No, it is a question of reactions, specifically Skywarp's reactions to Ramjet and Thundercracker for their 'betrayals'. How Skywarp reacts to Thundercracker isn't quite in line with that we've seen of him previously. Even in his argument with the Insecticons, it isn't that one sided.

[Shockwave]

I've been lurking the Skywarp discussion for a while now and whoever said they're different situations between Ramjet and Thundercracker is correct. Ramjet basically turned into Starscream and Skywarp's reaction is "great another one who thinks he can take over" and was to warn RJ of the last idiot that tried that. So it wasn't so much of a betrayal, it was on the level of just warning a coworker not to get out of line. Thundercracker however, didn't try to take over, he actually rescued their mortal enemies. At that point, he might as well as had Autobot logos on him. Skywarp regarded that as TC having switched sides, betrayed their leader, their cause, undermined their current strategy and saved their enemies and the planet they were just trying to destroy. And Skywarp wasn't smart enough to pick up on the subtle clues earlier that Megatron wasn't really staying true to the cause himself. Which fits with his description as "not too bright".

[Onslaught Six]

Skywarp is also more emotionally invested in Thundy than he is Ramjet.

[Sparky Prime]

I've been lurking the Skywarp discussion for a while now and whoever said they're different situations between Ramjet and Thundercracker is correct.

It's not the situations so much as it is the principal of the matter. The Seekers are somewhat of a subfaction within the Decepticon army. The way I see it, Skywarp is kinda looking out for Ramjet, but allows him to make his own mistakes anyway. It isn't much different with Thundercracker. TC breaks ranks, and Skywarp steps in, only this time he deals with the 'betrayal' personally rather than just talking with Thundercracker.

Skywarp is also more emotionally invested in Thundy than he is Ramjet.

Skywarp gong out of his way to warn Ramjet would disagree with that notion.

[Shockwave]

Ok, different principals then (which makes more sense). Ramjet was just playing "topple the leader" which apparently was pretty standard within the Decepticon army. But when Thundercracker stopped the bomb that was about to blow up the enemy, Skywarp took it on the same level as if he had fired on other Decepticons. Skywarp recognized Ramjet's actions as a standard power play, Thundy's actions weren't even a play for power but, in SW's eyes a full out betrayal of the cause and more personally him. Play for power is one thing, rescue the enemy is something else entirely.

[BWprowl]

Skywarp didn't really go out of his way to warn Ramjet. He hung out with Ramjet a couple times, and when he heard RJ talking about an attempt at overthrowing Megatron, he just stated the obvious: That it was a bad idea. I don't think he cared too much about what happened to Ramjet, he's pretty much laughing his ass off at the end there.

With Thundercracker, it was less of a lame attempt at taking over the faction, and more of an out-and-out betrayal of the faction itself. It's not like Thundercracker tried to take leadership away from Megatron (these are the Decepticons, and that happens every other week anyway), he actually went against the interests of the whole team and helped the other guys. And not only was it a betrayal of Megatron's orders and the Decepticons interests, it was a personal betrayal of Skywarp's trust in Thundercracker.

Say you're going to school, and there's a couple guys. One guy goes to the school with you, and you have a couple classes together, and you chat a bit, but you aren't especially close. So this guy pulls you aside one day and tells you he's got this big grand scheme to embarrass the teacher of your class the next day. So he tries it, it blows up in his face, and he ends up humiliated instead. You'll probably be laughing at him with the rest of the class. Now there's this other guy you know, and you're both on the football team, and he's your senior who showed you the ropes, and who you really respect and idolize and so forth. And then, during your big game against your rival school's team, he pulls some crap at the critical moment to *help* the other team win! You'll probably be so confused and enraged that you won't even stop to listen to an explanation, you'll just punch him in the face and storm off all furious-like.

I think it's kinda like that.

[Sparky Prime]

Skywarp didn't really go out of his way to warn Ramjet. He hung out with Ramjet a couple times, and when he heard RJ talking about an attempt at overthrowing Megatron, he just stated the obvious: That it was a bad idea. I don't think he cared too much about what happened to Ramjet, he's pretty much laughing his ass off at the end there.

All the other Decepticons were pretty much avoiding Ramjet, again as I speculated earlier, in part because he was already in some hot water, as well as probably because they didn't want to risk sharing his fate by association. Skywarp talks to him anyway. Heck, even taking the time to tell Ramjet "you're plan is a bad idea" could be considered going out of his way because he has no obligation to do so. If he didn't really care what happened to Ramjet, why say anything at all in the first place?

With Thundercracker, it was less of a lame attempt at taking over the faction, and more of an out-and-out betrayal of the faction itself. It's not like Thundercracker tried to take leadership away from Megatron (these are the Decepticons, and that happens every other week anyway), he actually went against the interests of the whole team and helped the other guys. And not only was it a betrayal of Megatron's orders and the Decepticons interests, it was a personal betrayal of Skywarp's trust in Thundercracker.

And again, Skywarp didn't even listen to Thundercracker's side of the story to know why he did that. That's all I've been saying here. Skywarp takes the time to talk to everyone else he's got some issues with, but TC, he just calls a traitor and blasts him. Again, that seems out of character compared to his other confrontations with his fellow Decepticons.

[BWprowl]

And again, Skywarp didn't even listen to Thundercracker's side of the story to know why he did that. That's all I've been saying here. Skywarp takes the time to talk to everyone else he's got some issues with, but TC, he just calls a traitor and blasts him. Again, that seems out of character compared to his other confrontations with his fellow Decepticons.

Dude, he's freaked out, confused, and pissed off. It's a heat of the moment thing. *That's* how angry Thundercracker stopping the bomb made him. That's the whole point.