TF Views

Sparky Prime wrote:I don't see that implication at all. Even if the Decepticons could rig it to connect Hunter's mind to the Autobot Network, I don't see how that could possibly explain how he could crack all of their codes. Having an organic mind that 'works differently' shouldn't make a difference.

Exactly. Which is why I made the haystack analogy.

I have to question the extent that these codes are effective, honestly--you guys are making it out as if the Decepticons were able to cripple the entire Autobot defense network over the Universe, which I'm just not seeing any proof of. A lot of niche elements of the story aren't explained too well, and I'll concede that I wish they were made clearer--but they don't necessarily need to be there for the core story to make it through. (Arguably, the same thing can be said of ROTF, but that story didn't really have anything to say.)

Onslaught Six wrote:I have to question the extent that these codes are effective, honestly--you guys are making it out as if the Decepticons were able to cripple the entire Autobot defense network over the Universe, which I'm just not seeing any proof of. A lot of niche elements of the story aren't explained too well, and I'll concede that I wish they were made clearer--but they don't necessarily need to be there for the core story to make it through. (Arguably, the same thing can be said of ROTF, but that story didn't really have anything to say.)

As you yourself have pointed out, Megatron and Bombshell discuss that somehow they manged a method of "tracking the Autobots down and deactivating their defenses, "if only once."". It's made pretty clear in this story the Decepticons used that opportunity to cripple the entire Autobot defense network across the universe. We may not really see is how effective the Decepticons were, but the instances we do see, the Decepticons did a pretty good job of crippling the Autobots. If not for Omega Supreme showing up when he did, the Autobots on Cybertron would have been completely screwed. If not for Metroplex helping out Goldbug's group, Sixshot would have finished them off. So.... the story is pretty clear that the Autobots across the universe were in trouble.

And I'm sick of this "did/didn't have anything to say" crap. As Shockwave said in the comics thread:

Shockwave wrote:Another part of my point is that, for me, "good" writing requires at least 2 things: 1: Interesting characters 2: doing interesting things. For me, it's character driven, I don't require that the writer be preaching some "message" to me.

That wouldn't explain Megatron's nonchalant attitude as to whether or not Starscream survived his injuries after the fact. Or his anger that his other troops eventually let him out against orders (which he only overlooked because he needed Starscream's support with the Reaper's attack). And again, how he dealt with Ramjet. Killing (or nearly killing) troops who step out of line is just how this Megatron deals with it.

I put down Megatron nearly killing Starscream to a flash of temper. (And really, can you blame Megatron for it?)

Killing Ramjet would be a different scenario from the one in AHM. Ramjet is one guy whose plans are expensive, and unlikely to succeed. Politically, it would cost Megatron nothing to kill Ramjet. Nobody seems to like RJ very much. Killing too many of his own troops, as would be the case in AHM, would carry both a political and administrative burden.

I don't see that implication at all. Even if the Decepticons could rig it to connect Hunter's mind to the Autobot Network, I don't see how that could possibly explain how he could crack all of their codes. Having an organic mind that 'works differently' shouldn't make a difference.

It might be a question of combining the processing power of a computer with the recursive power and flexibility of an organic brain.

Another part of my point is that, for me, "good" writing requires at least 2 things: 1: Interesting characters 2: doing interesting things. For me, it's character driven, I don't require that the writer be preaching some "message" to me.

Fictional characters and events are only going to be so interesting if the story is just a record of events that really have no importance. If I am going to take the time to read soemthing, I want the writer to say something beyond "Transformers/heroes/knights/dragons/storm-troopers/whatever are kewl".

This brings up an interesting point: Why the hell are there no computer hacker Transformers? Seriously, they do friggin' everything on computers; they *are* computers basically, and yet, in the entire 25+ years of the franchise, the only character we've ever gotten whose function was anything like 'Computer Hacker' was Rattrap in Beast Machines. Otherwise, they always have to torture access codes out of people and the like if they wanna get into various classified systems and whatnot. If Megatron had had a decent hacker among his team in AHM, then getting into the Autobots' security and computer systems, sabotaging their operations, and racking up the interstellar victory count would've been no problem.

I would argue that Bombshell, Soundwave and Mindwipe are computer hackers, as would pretty much any guy who helped to develop the Headmaster process. But, I do see your point.

The real, and best, answer for why we do not see more of this is that it would be too hard to write. It would require a knowledge base of both the thought process and computers that few, if any, comic writers would have. If one starts to consider how technology influences culture and such, then having TFs hack each other might open up new cans of worms and possible make the comic worse because it would raise more sensible questions about why something does or does not work that should not or should.


Dom
-notes that "Beast Wars" had plenty of hacked characters.

Dominic wrote:I put down Megatron nearly killing Starscream to a flash of temper. (And really, can you blame Megatron for it?)

And I put down he nearly killed Starscream to tell him "I'm your leader, now get back in line and don't you ever forget your place!"

Killing Ramjet would be a different scenario from the one in AHM. Ramjet is one guy whose plans are expensive, and unlikely to succeed. Politically, it would cost Megatron nothing to kill Ramjet. Nobody seems to like RJ very much. Killing too many of his own troops, as would be the case in AHM, would carry both a political and administrative burden.

Again, it's roughly the same scenario. Ramjet was trying to oust Megatron, defying his leader. When you get down to it, that's all a rebellion is. And I don't see why you're so hung up on the "political and administrative burdens". With the war with the Autobots supposedly over, that would be the perfect time to rebuild and reorganize politically and administratively. In other words, Megatron could afford the sacrifice.

It might be a question of combining the processing power of a computer with the recursive power and flexibility of an organic brain.

I don't think you realize how complex a Transformer computer must be. I think an organic mind would have difficulty handling the interface in the first place, even an organic brain being supported by Cybertronian technology. I don't see how it could possibly be used to crack every code the Autobots have.

Fictional characters and events are only going to be so interesting if the story is just a record of events that really have no importance. If I am going to take the time to read soemthing, I want the writer to say something beyond "Transformers/heroes/knights/dragons/storm-troopers/whatever are kewl".

You know, I'm surprised you like anything beyond books like "V for Vendetta" or "Watchmen" that have some sort of message to preach with world changing ramifications with comments like this. While those are really good stories, so are good ol' fashion entertaining stories that aren't preaching some message. It doesn't necessarily have to be a particularly important event to be an entertaining and/or interesting story either.

Sparky Prime wrote:

It might be a question of combining the processing power of a computer with the recursive power and flexibility of an organic brain.

I don't think you realize how complex a Transformer computer must be. I think an organic mind would have difficulty handling the interface in the first place, even an organic brain being supported by Cybertronian technology. I don't see how it could possibly be used to crack every code the Autobots have.

Which is an example of what Dom was saying about how writers really shouldn't go there since it then gets into the area of what technologically can or can't work. There's too many of us tech geeks out there to see through this kind of stuff and really McCarthy (look I remembered a writer's name!) shouldn't have gone there unless he has a second job doing computer tech support. He doesn't and it shows in the story with Sunstreaker.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Fictional characters and events are only going to be so interesting if the story is just a record of events that really have no importance. If I am going to take the time to read soemthing, I want the writer to say something beyond "Transformers/heroes/knights/dragons/storm-troopers/whatever are kewl".

You know, I'm surprised you like anything beyond books like "V for Vendetta" or "Watchmen" that have some sort of message to preach with world changing ramifications with comments like this. While those are really good stories, so are good ol' fashion entertaining stories that aren't preaching some message. It doesn't necessarily have to be a particularly important event to be an entertaining and/or interesting story.

Exactly. It's called reading for entertainment which I think should be the primary reason for reading anything. If it's really really well written it can be entertaining, fun, and have a message, but it should primarily be fun. If I want to read something preachy, I'll pick up a bible. If I want to read something fun, I pick up Transformers. I would cite the movie Natural Born Killers as an example of what I'm talking about (I know, not a book, but the analogy will still work). Personally, I hated that movie. It sucked donkey balls on such a huge level that it's #3 on my worst movies ever list. When I tell people this the response I invariably get is "but it's good because it has a message." Bullshit. The movie To Die For with Nicole Kidman had the same message and did it in a fun and entertaining way which, in my opinion, makes it a much better movie. I know NBK had a message but just having a message doesn't make it a good movie.
/rant.

What happened to my last post? It did not make it up.

Again, it's roughly the same scenario. Ramjet was trying to oust Megatron, defying his leader. When you get down to it, that's all a rebellion is. And I don't see why you're so hung up on the "political and administrative burdens". With the war with the Autobots supposedly over, that would be the perfect time to rebuild and reorganize politically and administratively. In other words, Megatron could afford the sacrifice.

Killing a guy nobody likes (Ramjet), when everybody else has something to worry about (war with the Autobots), is cheaper than killing multiple guys when everybody is kind of hurting for things to do. The purge would wind up being causing a new rift, effectively splitting the remaining faction into two.

It would be less a question of Megatron being able to afford the loss of the guys he would kill and more a question of being able to afford the political and morale costs, which could lead to more violence and dissent.

I don't think you realize how complex a Transformer computer must be. I think an organic mind would have difficulty handling the interface in the first place, even an organic brain being supported by Cybertronian technology. I don't see how it could possibly be used to crack every code the Autobots have.

"Transformers" is soft sci-fi. Transformer brains are as complex and/or different from human brains as they need to be. Having some information about computers or human brains would help. But, past a certain point, it become impossible to define a fictional construct, especially one that is inherently unreal.

You know, I'm surprised you like anything beyond books like "V for Vendetta" or "Watchmen" that have some sort of message to preach with world changing ramifications with comments like this. While those are really good stories, so are good ol' fashion entertaining stories that aren't preaching some message. It doesn't necessarily have to be a particularly important event to be an entertaining and/or interesting story either.

i am not a fan of Moore at all. I tend to avoid reading "this is what happened" style news papers. (NY Post, or the Boston Herald). I do not have much more interest in basic accounts of fictional events. Actually, i probably have more interest in the real event as it might have some relevance.

it is not a question of preaching a message. it is a question of the writer showing some understanding of an idea beyond comics/TFs/whatever being kewl.

McCarthy (look I remembered a writer's name!)

Good job.

I know NBK had a message but just having a message doesn't make it a good movie.

Another problem in this case is that people will deny a message is present if it is not the right sort of book/movie/whatever. They will discount merit in a movie because of the type of movie it is. (I can guarantee if Bay ever makes a good movie, Cambrige types will ignore it.) Similarly, they will discount a message unless it is one that is properly "radical", as was the case with NBK.

Stone was basically saying that it is okay to be a homicidal maniac so long as you feel bad later. it still makes you better than the other people who are not as radical. Of course, recognizing and agreeing with a message are two different things.


Dom
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Is that what he was saying? I thought the message was that the media sensationalizes violence. Which was the same message behind To Die For, but To Die For had a tongue in cheek dark humor fun feel to it where as NBK came off to me as just another Oliver Stone acid trip.

Dominic wrote:I would argue that Bombshell, Soundwave and Mindwipe are computer hackers, as would pretty much any guy who helped to develop the Headmaster process. But, I do see your point.

Yeah, but guys like Bombshell and Mindwipe are more like body snatcher/psycho pirate types, whereas what I was looking for was more of a straight computer-systems hacker (can't believe I forgot Soundwave though, who, as a communications hacker, is something of an 80's-friendly computer hacker).

I guess the simple answer is that a computer hacker would be a non-combative role, and therefore less appealing as a toy to sell to kids. I could totally see one showing up as a convention-exclusive though. Here's hoping.

BWprowl wrote:I guess the simple answer is that a computer hacker would be a non-combative role, and therefore less appealing as a toy to sell to kids. I could totally see one showing up as a convention-exclusive though. Here's hoping.

You also start getting into the question of, if this one Transformer has the ability to randomly hack into any given TF's brain, why can't everybody do this? And once you get to that point, you start to question why they're ever in physical combat at all, when in reality, they could just hack into each other's brains.

Really, the TFs having physical combat at all is pretty idiotic. Realistically, Prime and Megatron should line up their troops at one another, stare each side down for a minute or two, and then Prime goes, "We win in 234 moves." Megs sighs, and goes, "Damn, you got us again. Decepticons, retreat!" But that's not fun at all.

To the discussion on writers and what they have to say, I'm going to pick up an entirely different book: Atomic Robo! It's a book where a robot that Tesla built kicks the shit out of monsters and robots and stuff. What's the book got to say? Mostly, it's just a book where a cool character does cool things...but he does them in an interesting and well-done way. For example, there's subtle characterisation all throughout the book. And there's one issue where Robo answers a reporter about what the hardest part about being an immortal nuclear robot is, and he answers, "The hardest part is that I'm 83 years old. I do a great Jack Benny, but no one really gets it anymore."

Robo stories are about an exploration of experimental technology and the supernatural--one issue features Robo infiltrating a pyramid that, turns out, has gears and robot mummies inside. The Egyptians built the pyramid to 'move.' The program took thousands of years to execute.

The thing I think I'm trying to get at is that Robo's point is that he's old, and he's only going to get older. And eventually, everyone he knows or loves dies. It's an exploration of that. And his crazy adventures fighting a talking dinosaur who claims to have timetravelled. Oh! And the vampire dimension.

A book need not have an overall "preachy" message, but it does need something of *substance.* I'm going to turn to anime here, because I'm screwy that way and I don't care. Rurouni Kenshin, because it's an easy example. Kenshin Himura used to be an assassin for the revolutionary army, and then the revolution happened, so now he's a wanderer who doesn't kill people in order to redeem himself for his sins. That's the overall story theme of Kenshin--one of redemption. Just because you've been a right asshole your entire life doesn't mean it's too late to change and Be A Good Person. And a good bit of the episodes deal with a character who's a dick, and then Kenshin kicks their ass and is all, "No, stop it, that's Bad," and then they go, "Aww, you're right, shit."

I shouldn't write posts at 1 AM.