TF Views

That's been my whole point. As at least two and a half other guys have proved, being Peter Parker isn't what makes you Spider-Man. Having the powers, responsibility, and being called Spider-Man and CONSIDERED a Spider-Man by Marvel as an entity (Otto-as-Spider-Man is half-headlining Spider-Verse!) means he's Spider-Man.

'Dying Wish' certainly began with Otto 'pretending' to be Spider-Man. But after that, as 'Superior' began and he got to work? He was legitimately acting as Spider-Man, and becoming that role and putting his own stamp on it.

You're not the judge of criteria of what 'counts' as becoming Spider-Man, Sparky. Marvel is, and they fully consider Otto a Spider-Man. Ipso facto.

138 Scourge wrote:Wow, everything in that article that Anderson linked looks better than everything from the Nu52. They had my attention at Wally West.

Yeah, all sorts of good stuff and characters I actually want to read about. It looks really good.

BWprowl wrote:That's been my whole point. As at least two and a half other guys have proved, being Peter Parker isn't what makes you Spider-Man. Having the powers, responsibility, and being called Spider-Man and CONSIDERED a Spider-Man by Marvel as an entity (Otto-as-Spider-Man is half-headlining Spider-Verse!) means he's Spider-Man.

Stealing the identity of someone else - that doesn't make you Spider-Man. The characters you keep bringing up where Spider-Men in their own right, having gotten their powers by accident, and they certainly weren't trying to steal the identity from someone else like Doc Ock did. He wasn't a Spider-Man on his own, he was taking it from Peter. That's a pretty significant difference there BWprowl.

'Dying Wish' certainly began with Otto 'pretending' to be Spider-Man. But after that, as 'Superior' began and he got to work? He was legitimately acting as Spider-Man, and becoming that role and putting his own stamp on it.

You're not the judge of criteria of what 'counts' as becoming Spider-Man, Sparky. Marvel is, and they fully consider Otto a Spider-Man. Ipso facto.

I dunno about you, but I've never seen Spidey willing to sacrifice or kill anyone, like Otto was and still is in the Spider-Verse storyline. That's not acting like Spider-Man in the least. And given Marvel has incorporated things like the Hostess advertisement Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse story, they clearly are going with a very loose definition of alternate universe Spider-Men. And you're no more a judge of the criteria of what counts as becoming Spider-Man than I Prowl, but in my book, stealing the identity from someone else is not what makes someone Spider-Man.

That is so weird then because every issue of that book I bought had Spider-Man printed right there on the cover.

138 Scourge wrote:That is so weird then because every issue of that book I bought had Spider-Man printed right there on the cover.

His body maybe, but not his mind.

The point of Slott's "Superior Spider-Man" was a question of what made for a better Spider-Man. On page, Otto thoroughly usurped Parker's identity and life, effectively becoming him. Otto was Spider-Man for that run. He was a different Spider-Man, but he was Spider-Man.

Yeah, all sorts of good stuff and characters I actually want to read about. It looks really good.

Nothing on that list interests me. Little, if any, of it is likely to stick past Q2 of next year. And, the high concepts do not jump out as anything special. There is also the fact that I simply do not trust DC enough to buy in on any large event/project.

Just going to wait for DC to get its house in order before buying any more of their books. (Of course, I am making exceptions for "Injustice" and "Multiversity".)

Dominic wrote:Nothing on that list interests me. Little, if any, of it is likely to stick past Q2 of next year. And, the high concepts do not jump out as anything special. There is also the fact that I simply do not trust DC enough to buy in on any large event/project.

For me it's a chance to revisit versions of characters and storylines that I actually care about, as opposed to DC's current output. I'd like to see some of these continue long term, but if they don't, I'll just have to settle for what we get.

Dominic wrote:The point of Slott's "Superior Spider-Man" was a question of what made for a better Spider-Man. On page, Otto thoroughly usurped Parker's identity and life, effectively becoming him. Otto was Spider-Man for that run. He was a different Spider-Man, but he was Spider-Man.

I still have to say stealing someone else's body and life doesn't make you that person. It was still Doc Ock, just in Spider-Man's body.

Batman: Earth One
There are only so many times you can go back to the well before it runs dry. How many Batman origin stories do we need?

Earth One is a graphic novel first series of continuity-free versions of DC’s characters. I imagine it’s similar to Marvel’s Ultimate universe in that it starts over and “brings the characters into the 21st century”, to use the old cliché. I found the two Superman Earth One books so far to be uninspired, and as for Batman…

We can all agree that like so many DC characters, the universe that Batman inhabits grew organically over time. One of my major dislikes with origin story retellings is the tendency for an author to take lots of disparate story elements that were added at different times and throw them into the mix in an attempt to connect them. The original Tim Burton Batman film did this by making the Joker/Jack Napier responsible for the death of Batman’s parents. Geoff Johns borrows the same idea, only this time it’s the Penguin who is responsible. This approach shrinks the fictional universe, making it a very small world in which ten connected people fight among themselves while the rest of the city remains faceless.

The story begins with Thomas Wayne running for mayor of Gotham against Oswald Cobblepot. He brings in his wartime friend and fellow soldier Alfred to handle campaign security since he's had death threats. Cobblepot puts out a hit on Wayne and he is ultimately responsible for the death of Thomas and Martha. Oh, and Martha Wayne’s maiden name was Arkham, with the Waynes and Arkhams being the two most well-known families in Gotham.

Alfred raises Bruce, because the Waynes put down in their will that guardianship would fall to him if something happened to them. Keep in mind there’s no blood relationship here, and Alfred is not the butler who is like a member of the family. He’s a friend of Thomas Wayne from wartime. Bruce comes up with the Batman idea because a bunch of bats flew out of his parents’ mausoleum once when he went to visit.

When the story moves to the present day, Cobblepot is mayor, and we get the Scarecrow thrown into the mix. At least, I think it's the Scarecrow. He’s more like Bane than the Scarecrow though, being massive and muscular, and a serial killer to boot. He is, of course, in the employ of the mayor. Jim Gordon is a coward, worn down by Gotham and constantly willing to turn a blind eye to the crime going on around him. Harvey Bullock is slim and trim with movie-star looks and a gung-ho attitude. And apparently the only training Bruce has had is fight training from Alfred. When he goes out his first night as the Batman, he about gets himself killed thanks to quite a few errors in judgment. The injury scene brings to mind “Batman Year One”, but Geoff Johns lacks Frank Miller’s skill in storytelling, even if he does shamelessly borrow from him.

This is like bad fanfiction. It certainly gives us alternate versions of the familiar Batman cast, but the logic behind the changes is never readily apparent. A lot of alterations appear to be simply change for the sake of change. I guess butlers are less common than they used to be, and trick umbrellas are silly, but a hidden knife blade in the end of the umbrella isn’t. And having Alfred shoot the mayor of Gotham City so that he falls out a window to the street below is obviously an acceptable way to end a Batman origin story and dispose of the villain. Batman comes out looking very weak, only surviving because Alfred saves him halfway through the book, and then again at the end of the story. This is more "Alfred Earth One" than Batman, who is more often than not a victim in his own story.

I brought up the Burton film earlier, and the more I think about it, the more I believe that a feature film approach is what Geoff Johns was going for here. Connect the characters, make the main villain relevant to Batman’s beginnings and don’t worry about killing him off at the end, because everything needs to be self-contained and wrapped up. But this isn’t a film. It’s a poor man’s “Year One”, covering the same ground in far less capable fashion, with characters that lose a lot of what made them appealing and enduring in the first place.

Thanks for saving me $20 on that book Anderson.

I was tempted by it (mostly put off by Johns as writer). But, revised origins where "everybody knows everybody else" are a peeve of mine. (Seriously, I have lived in the same quarter mile for my entire life. There are still people who have barely met. And, when I discover even a tertiary connection, it is notable.) Gotham is a large, and densely populated, city. Having Batman's origins follow back to Cobblepot (who was running for mayor in BurtonBat II if I recall) is exactly what I would expect of a movie or a fanfic.


What was the problem with the E1 Superman comics?