We've got Hall of Fame voting going on up there

[Onslaught Six]

Amd. round in circles.....

Hey, we’re TFV. We wouldn’t have it any other way.

Quote for truth.

Because there is more to the hobby than robots in fur suits.

Hey, there’s a lot more to the hobby than the ’84-’85 cast, but I don’t see you complaining every time one of those guys gets admitted/nominated.

I'm not regularly debating that Moar Geewun Guys should get the nomination spot; I'm actually fighting for Movie characters, RID characters, Animated guys or unique UT guys. Hot Shot is easily eligible as he was a (mostly) original character for the series and popped up in Animated; he got a Universe 2.0 toy, and he's getting a Prime toy now. (Albeit blue and not yellow, but that's to separate him from Bumblebee.)

I'm not sure where you said it now but you also had a point you raised about post-86 characters and their involvement. And here's my rebuttal: Not many characters post-86 were very important, either within their own series or to the TF brand as a whole. I mean, random example: Longtooth. Let's say Hasbro never makes Longtooth. He never shows up, never had a toy, just some unreleased concept drawing. Is the TF "brand" changed significantly 'at all?' We get a different story for a Matrix Quest issue, and that's literally it. Nothing changes. Meanwhile, take away Prowl. Now you don't have someone to be a foil for Grimlock-as-Autobot-Leader. Now you don't have the owl from BW. Now you don't have a name for the police car dude in RID. Take away Mirage. Now you don't have a guy you can use for a built-in traitor story.

I mean, not every 84 character is essential either! I'm not calling for, for example, Sunstreaker to be in there. With the exception of Furman's IDW run and AHM, Sunstreaker has done 'absolutely nothing.' He spent most of the Marvel comics dead. We didn't get a new Sunstreaker in Armada or Energon. We didn't get a name reuse. The only reason we got the Universe 2.0 toy is because they could easily retool him from Sideswipe!

To me, there are three basic criteria that make a character "Hall of Fame" material (in no particular order):

1) Recognizability. If a TF fan of any age, any walk of life, can see a picture of this guy and go, "That guy's Prowl," or "That guy's Mirage," or "That guy's Rhinox," then he's recognizable.

2) Multiple continuities/appearances. If the character has been shown in multiple forms through several continuities, he's obviously a more "central" TF character than some others. For example, Ironhide was in G1, had a toy in BW (arguably a different character, but he had the name), had a name reuse in Energon, was in the Movies and was in Animated.* That makes him, to me, a more "important" character than, say, Brawn.

*I only count a character as "appearing in Animated" if they were actually in the cartoon. There were a shitload of stupid sourcebook crap that didn't actually appear in the show, so I'm not counting them.

3) Importance in a series: If a character was particularly important within one or more series, that makes him a good candidate. Sky-Byte hasn't really been seen since RID but he was one of the most important things about that series; the same with RID Scourge. Bulkhead from Animated was a major cast member and appeared in (almost?) every episode of the series, even though he was a brand new character. Barricade has (I think?) the third-most lines of any Decepticon in the first movie; he was also a new character, and he's also clearly a fan favourite guy.

Again, same thing for Rhinox, and Rhinox only has *two* other guys from his series in the HoF. Wheeljack and Mirage have tons of their teammates taking up space over there.

And yet there's no UT or Animated guys 'at all,' and yet I would argue those series had just as much impact on the brand as BW.

If IDW wanted to cancel all their current G1 ongoings, and instead put out some gaiden book about the UT, or RiD, or BM, or here’s a nutty idea, a completely original TF story, I’d be down for that too. The Movies may have increased public awareness of TF, but as far as the fanbase it’s done nothing to convince them that TF can be anything other than Optimus Prime and Megatron leading Autobots and Decepticons who turn into cars and planes fighting each other on Earth. BW at least expanded the horizons a bit, and every TF series since has done nothing but jam things more and more back into the status quo. Armada was a downright nutty reinterpretation of TF compared to Prime, which is just a slightly skewed version of G1.

Woah woah. Is IDW 'not' doing pretty original shit right now? I mean, Prime and Megs are gone. Sure, Bumblebee and Prowl are pretty much the stars of the one book, but then you got guys like Metalhawk. Fucking Metalhawk!

I mean, I think it's kind of hard to "do" a TF series without first establishing a framework it happens in. What would a "completely original" TF story consist of? (Feel free to spin this off into its own thread.)

Will that even work, per Hasbro, I mean? Do they ‘count’ BW Megs as being in the same slot as the already-admitted G1 Megatron? They lump the Movie guys in that way, I know.

I don't think BW Megatron appears at all in Hasbro's Megatron Video, nor the toy display cases that we see every year. Similarly, Energon Ironhide isn't anywhere in Ironhide's case. So I think those guys are considered distinct enough to not "count." Especially because BW Megatron explicitly is a dude who lives in the same universe as G1 Megatron and isn't him.

As an aside, can I give a big ‘screw you’ to Hasbro on that one? Forget Barricade, you know who I would love to nominate from the Movieverse? Starscream. He did Important Stuff in all three movies, and he was the star if the singular best piece of Movie fiction ever produced. I love him to the point that I’ve got over a dozen different toys of him arranged in a HotShotpheliac-Willis-Style shrine on top of my toy display case, and I’ll never be able to express that via nominating him for the Hall of Fame because Hasbro considers his character to just be a footnote to some G1 character that he actually has hardly anything in common with beyond turning into a jet and being named Starscream.

I dunno, he seems like he's kind of the same dude. Decepticon second in command. Wants to be the leader. Is a jet. I mean, Transformers characters can kind of be boiled down to that kind of thing usually. Besides, I think once you start doing stuff like that, it'll get ridiculous--are Armada and Energon Starscream the same guy? What about BWII Starscream? In my opinion, Movie Starscream doesn't really do anything to set himself apart from other Starscreams, besides maybe be more successful than them.

[BWprowl]

Hey, there’s a lot more to the hobby than the ’84-’85 cast, but I don’t see you complaining every time one of those guys gets admitted/nominated.

I'm not regularly debating that Moar Geewun Guys should get the nomination spot; I'm actually fighting for Movie characters, RID characters, Animated guys or unique UT guys. Hot Shot is easily eligible as he was a (mostly) original character for the series and popped up in Animated; he got a Universe 2.0 toy, and he's getting a Prime toy now. (Albeit blue and not yellow, but that's to separate him from Bumblebee.)

I was mainly addressing Dom on that one, wondering why it’s okay for 2-3 G1 guys to automatically get in every year, but one BW guy getting nominated provokes indignant rage.

And it’s stupid, because all three of us nominated Barricade for the EXACT reasons we’re now discussing.

I'm not sure where you said it now but you also had a point you raised about post-86 characters and their involvement. And here's my rebuttal: Not many characters post-86 were very important, either within their own series or to the TF brand as a whole. I mean, random example: Longtooth. Let's say Hasbro never makes Longtooth. He never shows up, never had a toy, just some unreleased concept drawing. Is the TF "brand" changed significantly 'at all?' We get a different story for a Matrix Quest issue, and that's literally it. Nothing changes. Meanwhile, take away Prowl. Now you don't have someone to be a foil for Grimlock-as-Autobot-Leader. Now you don't have the owl from BW. Now you don't have a name for the police car dude in RID. Take away Mirage. Now you don't have a guy you can use for a built-in traitor story.

And hey, you take out Rhinox, you don’t get Primal coming back to life, or the very end of BW, or the first half of BM with Tankorr.

Actually, now that I think about it, while I’m honestly ambivalent towards Rhinox, I would vote on the HoF five times a day for Tankorr.

Also, talking about post-86 G1 characters who DO matter, why the hell has Bludgeon or Thunderwing never made it to the vote-off? Even Nightbeat or Kup would be nice.

To me, there are three basic criteria that make a character "Hall of Fame" material (in no particular order):

1) Recognizability. If a TF fan of any age, any walk of life, can see a picture of this guy and go, "That guy's Prowl," or "That guy's Mirage," or "That guy's Rhinox," then he's recognizable.

2) Multiple continuities/appearances. If the character has been shown in multiple forms through several continuities, he's obviously a more "central" TF character than some others. For example, Ironhide was in G1, had a toy in BW (arguably a different character, but he had the name), had a name reuse in Energon, was in the Movies and was in Animated.* That makes him, to me, a more "important" character than, say, Brawn.

*I only count a character as "appearing in Animated" if they were actually in the cartoon. There were a shitload of stupid sourcebook crap that didn't actually appear in the show, so I'm not counting them.

3) Importance in a series: If a character was particularly important within one or more series, that makes him a good candidate. Sky-Byte hasn't really been seen since RID but he was one of the most important things about that series; the same with RID Scourge. Bulkhead from Animated was a major cast member and appeared in (almost?) every episode of the series, even though he was a brand new character. Barricade has (I think?) the third-most lines of any Decepticon in the first movie; he was also a new character, and he's also clearly a fan favourite guy.

I actually agree with most of this, though I’d like to focus on first getting ‘representatives’ in from all the various series. So with way too many G1 guys already in, and Dinobot and Waspinator in, it’d be really nice to see Barricade make it this year, so there’d be a little Movie representation. Then maybe some UT and RiD guys could get worked in over the next couple years.

And yet there's no UT or Animated guys 'at all,' and yet I would argue those series had just as much impact on the brand as BW.

Again, I agree, I’m just arguing for why it would be ‘okay’ for Rhinox to make it in over, say, some G1 guy.

Woah woah. Is IDW 'not' doing pretty original shit right now? I mean, Prime and Megs are gone. Sure, Bumblebee and Prowl are pretty much the stars of the one book, but then you got guys like Metalhawk. Fucking Metalhawk!

My preference for ‘original’ would be factions other than Autobots and Decepticons (maybe more than two factions? Or no factions at all?) with no characters names/designs we’d seen before, with some ‘new’ settings and concepts backing the whole thing up. RID is pretty great as a comic series about G1 so far, but it’s hardly a fresh take on the Transformers concept.

I mean, I think it's kind of hard to "do" a TF series without first establishing a framework it happens in. What would a "completely original" TF story consist of? (Feel free to spin this off into its own thread.)

I think I may do just that, I’ve actually been meaning to start something like that for some time.

I don't think BW Megatron appears at all in Hasbro's Megatron Video, nor the toy display cases that we see every year. Similarly, Energon Ironhide isn't anywhere in Ironhide's case. So I think those guys are considered distinct enough to not "count." Especially because BW Megatron explicitly is a dude who lives in the same universe as G1 Megatron and isn't him.

Hasbro really needs to publish some guidelines on this stuff.

I dunno, he seems like he's kind of the same dude. Decepticon second in command. Wants to be the leader. Is a jet. I mean, Transformers characters can kind of be boiled down to that kind of thing usually. Besides, I think once you start doing stuff like that, it'll get ridiculous--are Armada and Energon Starscream the same guy? What about BWII Starscream? In my opinion, Movie Starscream doesn't really do anything to set himself apart from other Starscreams, besides maybe be more successful than them.

Eh, it’s how he goes about it. G1 Starscream’s a whiny, entitled baby who wants to be leader because…he thinks it’d be cool, and goes about it like a dumbass, announcing his intent to overthrow Megatron every five minutes and making bad attempts at doing so with little to no support from the rest of the Decepticons. MovieScream, on the other hand, is less interested in being leader and more interested in doing what he thinks is best for the Decepticons, and even Cybertronians in general. He makes no attempts to overthrow Megatron, and once he’s dead, just kinda takes over the responsibility because it’s the sensible thing to do at the time, then comes up with a plan to restore the Allspark and Cybertron, which would have actually WORKED were it not for him (in a fit of insane cross-continuity irony) being betrayed by his overly ambitious second-in-command. He’s a smart, sensible character, who you can kinda sympathize with in how he comes across almost more as a Cybertronian patriot, rather than a lackey to some conquering warlord. In ways like that, he’s got about as much in common with G1 Starscream as Energon Ironhide has with G1 Ironhide.

Look, like I said, I really like the character, okay?

[Sparky Prime]

The damned fandom just defaults to BW whenever somebody brings up high points in the franchise's history. Like O6 said, it is like nobody considers any other part of TF. "Beast Wars" benefited from very low expectations and the fact that the G1 cartoon as a whole was not that good. "Beast Wars" was good, but it was not good enough as a whole to warrant the amount of praise that it still gets. Nor has it aged well in a technical sense.

I'm curious Dom, what do you consider the high point of the TF franchise? What has the best writing? The best stories? The best animation for its time? The best characters and development? For many fans, that is still Beast Wars, not just by default. BW set the bar. Sure it wasn't perfect and it has aged somewhat, but its still held up compared to other TF media for many fans.

And, as O6 points out, Rhinox was a secondary character for the franchise as a whole.

Yet he's still better developed than even some of the main characters in other parts of the franchise.

Personally, I like that the fans have been consistently voting to admit characters from a franchise other than G1 characters, as Hasbro has been doing. But that said, several of the characters Hasbro admitted have been runner-ups in the fan voting. It just goes to show BW has staying power in the fandom.

[Shockwave]

I was mainly addressing Dom on that one, wondering why it’s okay for 2-3 G1 guys to automatically get in every year, but one BW guy getting nominated provokes indignant rage.

The indignant rage coming from Dom is because Synjo ruined BW for him.

As for why BW characters are always the first ones offered up instead of G1, part of that is probably due to the fact that it's the next oldest series in the franchise. We've had more time seeing images and stories of those characters than ones from other iterations and so it stands to reason that for fans that have been around since then that those characters would be more iconic than characters from later iterations.

[Dominic]

Joking aside, it ain't just Synjo. We have been over this.

Meanwhile, take away Prowl. Now you don't have someone to be a foil for Grimlock-as-Autobot-Leader. Now you don't have the owl from BW. Now you don't have a name for the police car dude in RID. Take away Mirage. Now you don't have a guy you can use for a built-in traitor story.

Any and every character can be replaced with another at some point in the process.

Hell, since we are using really out of proportion real life examples, try this one: Fiction is littered with knock-offs of irreplaceable characters.

But, yes, Prowl and Mirage and memorable and recognizable.

*I only count a character as "appearing in Animated" if they were actually in the cartoon. There were a shitload of stupid sourcebook crap that didn't actually appear in the show, so I'm not counting them.

I would set the bar higher as including "substantial appearances". Ini other words, background or crowed scenes would not count for as much as actually showing up and doing something.

Barricade has (I think?) the third-most lines of any Decepticon in the first movie; he was also a new character, and he's also clearly a fan favourite guy.

Exactly. He showed up on t-shirts. Rhinox, outside of (maybe) some Japanese merchandise, not so much.

Also, talking about post-86 G1 characters who DO matter, why the hell has Bludgeon or Thunderwing never made it to the vote-off? Even Nightbeat or Kup would be nice.

I would agree here.

Carnivac sets a super-precedent for characters like Dinobot or Drift.

Skorponok and Bludgeon are also good candidates.

And, we might get one of them if people did not reflexively fall back on Beast Warts.

Actually, now that I think about it, while I’m honestly ambivalent towards Rhinox, I would vote on the HoF five times a day for Tankorr.

Without opening up the "same character or not" can of worms, Tankorr was a major player in half a season of a cartoon that is not even over with the fandom. Nobody outside of the fandom cares about "Beast Machines". Tankorr is not even remotely HoF worthy. C'mon. (And, I say this as a fan of the show.)

Again, I agree, I’m just arguing for why it would be ‘okay’ for Rhinox to make it in over, say, some G1 guy.

Because there are G1 characters that matter more. There are other characters from other parts of the franchise that mater more by virtue of being more unique for one reason or another.

Hasbro really needs to publish some guidelines on this stuff.

They kind of have. Their official statement about Megatron covers much of what you are asking about.

I'm curious Dom,

Go read the other thread I am starting about this then....


Dom
-was tempted to make a lewder response.

[138 Scourge]

Of course, ultimately, this is a dumb fun thing that Hasbro's doing to get some fun fan involvement. And every damn year, some stupid shit comes up that assumes that the whole thing is deadly serious. C'mon, this isn't real-deal political voting. Rhinox getting in or not is not going to make a big deal of anything.

Even though he's not on my list of nominees, I rather like Rhinox. There's something to be said for him being probably the only character in TF history that is a badass even if he doesn't need to prove it. Rhinox is likely the toughest guy on the Axalon, even after Dinobot gets there, and yet, he doesn't feel like he's gotta get in on every mission, he doesn't feel like he's gotta be Primal's bodyguard, and he doesn't feel like he's gotta be in charge. But c'mon, Dinobot didn't back down to Primal, he didn't back down to all of the damn Predacons combined, but he backed down to Rhinox just saying "I'm in a bad mood". And that time that Rhinox got all eviled-out and presumably lost his Zen? He was this close to running the Predacons in about ten minutes.

But yeah, Rhinox being the smart guy, the tough guy, and the enlightened Zen guy all at once? Rhinox is dope as hell.

[Mako Crab]

Yep yep. I do like Rhinox. Kind of surprised to see Barricade came in #1.

[Onslaught Six]

Hey, there’s a lot more to the hobby than the ’84-’85 cast, but I don’t see you complaining every time one of those guys gets admitted/nominated.

I'm not regularly debating that Moar Geewun Guys should get the nomination spot; I'm actually fighting for Movie characters, RID characters, Animated guys or unique UT guys. Hot Shot is easily eligible as he was a (mostly) original character for the series and popped up in Animated; he got a Universe 2.0 toy, and he's getting a Prime toy now. (Albeit blue and not yellow, but that's to separate him from Bumblebee.)

I was mainly addressing Dom on that one, wondering why it’s okay for 2-3 G1 guys to automatically get in every year, but one BW guy getting nominated provokes indignant rage.

And it’s stupid, because all three of us nominated Barricade for the EXACT reasons we’re now discussing.

I know! It's funny.

And hey, you take out Rhinox, you don’t get Primal coming back to life, or the very end of BW, or the first half of BM with Tankorr.

Get rid of Rhinox and they would have come up with some other deus-ex-machina to bring Primal back to life. What did Rhinox do that was so instrumental to the end of BW?

Actually, now that I think about it, while I’m honestly ambivalent towards Rhinox, I would vote on the HoF five times a day for Tankorr.

This. Man, I am stupid, I should have voted for Tankorr. Can we do that next year? 2013 is Tankorr's year.

Also, talking about post-86 G1 characters who DO matter, why the hell has Bludgeon or Thunderwing never made it to the vote-off? Even Nightbeat or Kup would be nice.

Yes! All four of those are great choices. Hell, they even all got new toys in the last year or so (barring Nightbeat, who at least got a club toy), so they're at least in Hasbro's eye.

I actually agree with most of this, though I’d like to focus on first getting ‘representatives’ in from all the various series. So with way too many G1 guys already in, and Dinobot and Waspinator in, it’d be really nice to see Barricade make it this year, so there’d be a little Movie representation. Then maybe some UT and RiD guys could get worked in over the next couple years.

This is exactly my point! Seeing Rhinox get in just makes the HOF the "Mostly G1 with one Beast Guy every year" show; getting Barricade or Sky-Byte or Hot Shot in shows that TF isn't primarily concerned with two very old cartoons, and embraces all aspects of its history.

Again, I agree, I’m just arguing for why it would be ‘okay’ for Rhinox to make it in over, say, some G1 guy.

And I'm arguing that Rhinox getting in over some Movie, UT or Animated guy would be just as bad as some G1 guy getting in over Rhinox. Hell, why Rhinox, even? BW Megatron is clearly a more central and recognizable character than Rhinox is.

My preference for ‘original’ would be factions other than Autobots and Decepticons (maybe more than two factions? Or no factions at all?) with no characters names/designs we’d seen before, with some ‘new’ settings and concepts backing the whole thing up. RID is pretty great as a comic series about G1 so far, but it’s hardly a fresh take on the Transformers concept.

Responding in the new thread.

I don't think BW Megatron appears at all in Hasbro's Megatron Video, nor the toy display cases that we see every year. Similarly, Energon Ironhide isn't anywhere in Ironhide's case. So I think those guys are considered distinct enough to not "count." Especially because BW Megatron explicitly is a dude who lives in the same universe as G1 Megatron and isn't him.

Hasbro really needs to publish some guidelines on this stuff.

Word! Maybe someone who's going to Botcon should ask. (THIS is why I want to go to Botcon. To go up to the guys and ask them things that might actually matter.)

Eh, it’s how he goes about it. G1 Starscream’s a whiny, entitled baby who wants to be leader because…he thinks it’d be cool, and goes about it like a dumbass, announcing his intent to overthrow Megatron every five minutes and making bad attempts at doing so with little to no support from the rest of the Decepticons. MovieScream, on the other hand, is less interested in being leader and more interested in doing what he thinks is best for the Decepticons, and even Cybertronians in general. He makes no attempts to overthrow Megatron, and once he’s dead, just kinda takes over the responsibility because it’s the sensible thing to do at the time, then comes up with a plan to restore the Allspark and Cybertron, which would have actually WORKED were it not for him (in a fit of insane cross-continuity irony) being betrayed by his overly ambitious second-in-command. He’s a smart, sensible character, who you can kinda sympathize with in how he comes across almost more as a Cybertronian patriot, rather than a lackey to some conquering warlord. In ways like that, he’s got about as much in common with G1 Starscream as Energon Ironhide has with G1 Ironhide.

Look, like I said, I really like the character, okay?

To be fair: That's a description of Starscream from a mid-quel comic book that might not be canon. He's never treated that way in the films.

[BWprowl]

Get rid of Rhinox and they would have come up with some other deus-ex-machina to bring Primal back to life. What did Rhinox do that was so instrumental to the end of BW?

He was the one who found the Ark’s shuttle, then got it started up and flew it through the Nemesis, saving Primal’s ass and accidentally killing the just-reformed Dinobot as a side-effect. Admittedly, had he not been there, they might have used the same plot point and just had Rattrap or somebody pilot the shuttle, but he would have delivered some corny one-liner as he rammed Megs, instead of the “For Everything That Ever Was” we got from Rhinox.

Okay, how about this one: Without Rhinox, we wouldn’t have gotten ‘The Low Road’, and that would be a serious loss.

This. Man, I am stupid, I should have voted for Tankorr. Can we do that next year? 2013 is Tankorr's year.

Sure, provided Barricade makes it in this year.

This is exactly my point! Seeing Rhinox get in just makes the HOF the "Mostly G1 with one Beast Guy every year" show; getting Barricade or Sky-Byte or Hot Shot in shows that TF isn't primarily concerned with two very old cartoons, and embraces all aspects of its history.

It’s the lesser of two evils for me. If no RiD, UT, Animated, or Movie guys can get in, then at least having just a third BW guy would be better than a dozenth G1 guy.

And I'm arguing that Rhinox getting in over some Movie, UT or Animated guy would be just as bad as some G1 guy getting in over Rhinox. Hell, why Rhinox, even? BW Megatron is clearly a more central and recognizable character than Rhinox is.

Hey, I’m with you 100% on this one. You don’t even have to argue the point, Megatron IS the most important character in the whole Beast Era, I would argue even more so than Optimus Primal.

To be fair: That's a description of Starscream from a mid-quel comic book that might not be canon. He's never treated that way in the films.

Well yeah, but that’s because, like every Decepticon and a good chunk of the Autobots, Starscream doesn’t have any character at all in the films! And hey, you can’t argue that the comics are less official or anything, it says right on the cover! ‘Official’ Movie Sequel!

[Dominic]

And, we got two guys in fursuits this year.

Arcee: Bastardizes G1 and Prime. The Hasbro profile notes that she is one of the few female Autobots with longevity. Of course, the bar for this is pretty low.

Megatron BW: Ohohohohohoho, a rubber ducky reference.

Wheeljack: And, Hasbro's official stance on Wheeljack is a bastardization of G1 and Prime.

Rodimus: I am tempted to vote for Rodimus on the strength of the write-up. It nicely works the original and the modern IDW together. (Note the character art. It is more evocative of the post-Matrix Rodimus.)

Sky-Byte: Bull shit. The only good thing about this is that Sky-Byte will split the beast vote. (Seriously, Sky-Byte rivals Waspinator for being a finalist that does not really matter. I would not vote for Sky-Byte any more than I would vote for a personal favourite like Windcharger.)



Wheeljack, Arcee and last year's Jazz raise a question though. While I am not in favour of characters being static over time, Hasbro's decree based changes arguably change the characters from what makes them iconic. I have no issue with "Prime" Wheeljack being a badass Wrecker type. But, one could argue that it is a significant enough departure from G1 Wheeljack to make Hasbro's official Wheeljack something "else". A similar case could be made about Arcee or "long time friend of Optimus Prime" Jazz.

Thoughts?



Dom
-leaning towards Rodimus.