TF Views

BW Toys: I'ma side with Prowl on this one. Sure they could use a LITTLE more articulation but two joints wouldn't be worth it. And he's also right in pointing out Hasbro's failed attempts in the Universe line. But, looking at pics, yeah there about as detailed as they'd need to be. Maybe less expressive faces, but that's not a deal breaker for me.

Also, Dom, why do you always assume that someone wanting good toys means they want shitty comics? The two are not mutually exclusive. One can have good toys AND good comics. In my opinion we currently have that so I'm a happy camper.

Shockwave wrote:BW Toys: I'ma side with Prowl on this one. Sure they could use a LITTLE more articulation but two joints wouldn't be worth it. And he's also right in pointing out Hasbro's failed attempts in the Universe line. But, looking at pics, yeah there about as detailed as they'd need to be. Maybe less expressive faces, but that's not a deal breaker for me.

Also, Dom, why do you always assume that someone wanting good toys means they want shitty comics? The two are not mutually exclusive. One can have good toys AND good comics. In my opinion we currently have that so I'm a happy camper.

I'll agree that it makes no sense to have 3Oth BW toys,as the toys were already super poseable & highly sculpted. Honestly it only makes sense to have 30th BW toys if their a bigger or smaller,as least here we'd be getting something different. Lets not forget how awful & wasteful those 25th BW toys of Cheetor & Dinobot were,Had they been voyagers they might have offered something different.

I'd rather get 30th toys for all those takara G-1 Japanese exclusive TF toys like Overlord,star saber,victoryleo,deathsaurus,dia atlus,etc..

I think it's a poor mistake for Hasbro to create 30th BW toys for Rhinox & Waspinator. Waspinator has already received a whole bunch of updated/retooled molds,last one was the TFA Deluxe. Rhinox is just a ugly toy,I don't think it would sell well at the voyager class due to it's ugly animal mode. If Hasbro wanted to do decent voyager sized BW toys,They should have done a voyager sized Tigatron,at least here tigers are beautiful & kids will buy them. Hasbro could have even colored the BW Tigatron toy in ravage & cheetor colors/persona,Maybe even do a dark orange Bengal tiger color.

BW TM2 Megatron,I feel needs a new mold,as the original mold was pure garbage. I think a clever thing to do would color the Ultimate or voyager BH Predaking mold in TM2 Megatron colors,Maybe with a new BW Megatron head sculpt.

If Hasbro is looking for molds to put in the 2014 30th toy line. Then the TF GO toys would be perfect filler. the Three ninja animal-bots could get recolored in 1986 Predacons colors or 1997 BW Magnaboss colors. The thre samurai toys could get recolored in protectobots colors.

Shockwave wrote:Why? Why is your perspective the right one?

I’m not saying my perspective is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, I’m saying what my perspective is and why having it has made me so frustrated with this franchise for the better part of a year or two.

The "old shit" is what made the franchise to begin with, if you're going to ditch it why not just start an entirely new different franchise based on whatever new different thing? Franchises HAVE to stay true to their core concept or they start to suck. This has been proven many times in many franchises already and even in TF itself. Even if we limit that statement to just the characters, there's still going to be some resistance from the fandom. As there should be. Because fans have already invested our time and money on those characters and we didn't waste all of that just to have some young whippersnapper come along and wipe it out for no other reason than "I'm sick of hearing old people yammer on about those things they like". If there's not going to be any connection between the new thing and the old thing then again, why bother? Just come up with a new franchise altogether.

The BIG difference between TF staying true to its core concepts compared to other series is that TF’s core concepts aren’t rooted in characters and appearance. GI Joe, for instance, HAS to have Joes fighting Cobra, with recognizable roles occupied by particular characters, or it just becomes generic soldier action figures. TF, on the other hand, only needs robots from a planet called Cybertron transforming into *stuff*, it doesn’t need the same characters or factions or design philosophy to ‘stay true’ to this, Beast Wars proved that.

I’ve used Kamen Rider as a comparative example to this sort of thing before, and I’ll do so again because it illustrates my point so well: Just because the original Kamen Rider was a guy named Takeshi Hongo whose hero persona was based on a grasshopper and fought an evil organization called Shocker doesn’t mean EVERY Kamen Rider that comes after him needs to be named Takeshi Hongo, be based on a grasshopper, and fight an evil organization named Shocker. In fact, none of the later ones have that. The ‘core elements’ of what make the Rider are there (mask, belt, bike, ass-kicking), but everything else is fair game for revamping. Last year’s Kamen Rider was a wizard named Haruto who wore red and black, who cast spells by swiping rings over his belt, drawing on the power of the phantom dragon that resided within him to fight other mythological Phantoms. This year? He’s a breakdancing blue and orange Samurai named Kouta who transforms by putting different fruit-themed locks on his belt that deploy matching fruit-themed armor on him, and he’s engaged in a turf war with other similar-armored Riders.

Meanwhile, TF throughout its last three ‘new’ incarnations, has been content to keep using guys named Optimus Prime and Bumblebee and Megatron who keep turning into vehicles. You can see why I’m excited and engaged by one franchise and frustratingly burnt out by the other.

I disagree with this up to a point and that point is the point you mentioned with the Star Wars toys. I bought a Darth Vader figure back in 2006 and have not needed a new one since. Star Wars and GI Joe have already reached that apex point for me. Unfortunately, articulation and tooling on TFs doesn't hold up as well. By and large, I am happy with Classics voyager Optimus being my representation of G1 Prime, but that mold has not aged well over the years. It's not terrible, but it there is room for some improvement. Wanting toys with articulation that is standard fare right now is not greedy. I mean, what's wrong with people wanting their favorite characters to have the best possible toys they can?

Well for one thing, Masterpiece Optimus Prime exists. Across multiple variations, even. If anything, that should serve as a guarantee that Hasbro never has to make another G1-ish Optimus Prime again.

Which part, the part about G1 toys being better than BW toys, or the part about wanting re-made BW toys?

Um all of it actually. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say any of this, at least not with the implication of one relating to the other.

Alright, hold onto your ass then because this is what it’s all about. This is what it has *always* been all about.

Way back in the days of the Beast Era, I CONSTANTLY was, as best as my dumbass, twelve-year-old self could, arguing with older fans who emphatically claimed that the G1 toys were better than current BW (and later BM) toys, which obviously totally sucked. Never mind that the sculpting, articulation, transformation complexity, durability, and other elements of the Beast toys were miles ahead of what the G1 stuff had offered, they wanted to hear none of that; the G1 toys were ‘just better’, for whatever reason. A lot of times they’d throw out the “They were great for their time!” argument (never mind the fact that, by virtue of actually being Diaclone toys produced in the late 70’s, most G1 toys were actually out-dated even in their own time), but for the most part there was this magic intangible greatness to the G1 toys that the BW toys could never top, despite how insanely technically marvelous I could tell they were (the articulation of BW toys alone still blows a lot of ‘modern’ figures out of the water).

So whatever, right? But then RiD gets brought over here, and these people start excitedly talking about how great stuff like the Optimus Prime and the Prowl from the line are, despite the fact that they’re basically at the same level as the Beast toys that supposedly sucked so bad. Uh, what? Things get even more incongruous years later, in Classics, when now everyone’s declaring these the best Transformers ever, despite the fact that they’re still barely at a level above those supposedly-horrible Beast Wars toys. Really, you were the guys telling me about a decade ago that G1 Optimus Prime was a better toy than Ultra Optimus Primal, and now you’re hailing Classics Prime as the best thing ever? What happened to thinking Hasbro could never improve on those glorious G1 toys? Why, just years after you were saying you were happy with the G1 toys and didn’t want anything to do with these Beast toys, are you suddenly clamoring for BW-level toys of guys like Starscream and Mirage?

Oh.

OOOHH!!!

These people didn’t give a shit about the toys themselves *at all*. They just wanted *more* figures of guys from back when THEY got into the franchise. For them it was never about how *good* the toys actually were, they weren’t even looking at the quality of the actual things. They didn’t care about the quantum leap in articulation that ball joints represented, or the amazingly unique designs of the Vehicons and how personality was incorporated into them, or cute ideas like Armada’s mini-combiners. All they cared was that it Looked Like Some Dude. They didn’t want a toy named Starscream to be repainted into a toy named Skywarp because the mold might look snazzy in black and purple, they just wanted it because if there’s a Starscream, it HAS to be made into Skywarp later.

And now Hasbro’s almost completely catering to those people in how they handle the brand, and it is the cancer that is killing Transformers.

Well for one thing, Masterpiece Optimus Prime exists. Across multiple variations, even. If anything, that should serve as a guarantee that Hasbro never has to make another G1-ish Optimus Prime again.

MP Optimus is expensive. I managed to get one cheap on clearance back in '04. But, damn, $80+ for retail would have been painful.

A lot of times they’d throw out the “They were great for their time!” argument (never mind the fact that, by virtue of actually being Diaclone toys produced in the late 70’s, most G1 toys were actually out-dated even in their own time),

This actually supports the arguement for making newer toys based on older characters that never had good toys made.

Not everybody who wants good toys of old characters is a GeeWunner.

These people didn’t give a shit about the toys themselves *at all*. They just wanted *more* figures of guys from back when THEY got into the franchise. For them it was never about how *good* the toys actually were, they weren’t even looking at the quality of the actual things. They didn’t care about the quantum leap in articulation that ball joints represented, or the amazingly unique designs of the Vehicons and how personality was incorporated into them, or cute ideas like Armada’s mini-combiners. All they cared was that it Looked Like Some Dude. They didn’t want a toy named Starscream to be repainted into a toy named Skywarp because the mold might look snazzy in black and purple, they just wanted it because if there’s a Starscream, it HAS to be made into Skywarp later.

You are just getting the idea that people want toys based on characters from the show/comic/movie that they might happen to like? You are just now getting this, despite me explaining it how many times?!?!?!?

If the toys were all that mattered, or even the dominant thing, we would be sitting here talking about "Go-Bots", because "Go-Bots" would have beaten the snot out of "Transformers" by the mid-80s. (Actually, if the "Go-Bots" content were the same, I would have been out of the hobby by 92 or so at the very latest, even assuming they were still making new toys. But, you get the idea)


That being said, wanting good toys of characters that did not get good toys initially (most of the '84/85 cast) does not make one a GeeWunner. I am fine with getting new characters. (I was fine with Drift being introduced about five years back, and more than happy to buy multiple copies of the toy for customizing even...) I can see a fan of "Beast Wars" wanting better toys of those characters. (Hasbro has never made a good Dinobot figure that looks like Dinobot from the show...which is a big part of why people like Dinobot in the first fucking place.)

The same could be said of the UT characters. I could go for a better "Armada" Red Alert. (I like the old toy. But, I would not mind a better one.)

That is why I want a new Mirage figure. The 2006 figure is showing its age. That is also why I still want a good Mirage based on the G1 character model used in the 80s....because Hasbro has never made one. (Actually, G1 Mirage ain't so bad. So, this is not the best example. But, you get the idea. I still want a good G1 Megatron that does not cost over $100, which is how much the Masterpiece figure costs. A good G1 Galvatron would be nice. You get the idea.)

-late edit: character comparison

You once called me out for numbering Jazz, Mirage, Wheeljack and Prowl among my favourites because they all looked the same. Putting aside the fact that all 4 are based on clearly distinctive and different control art, there is also the fact that all of them have done something important somewhere in the franchise.

Jazz: Jazz is a favourite of mine. Jazz was prominent in the cartoon and the comic. He did cool things in both the cartoon and the comic. (The same could be said to varying degrees about the other 3. But, the example probably works best for Jazz.) Luckily, Jazz had a better than average G1 figure, which takes some of the sting out of the 2010 figure being so piss poor (even if I still want a betterG1 Jazz or a figure based on how Jazz looked in Costa's run).

Dinobot I: I may be done with "Beast Wars". But, I can understand why people like Dinobot. He was a main character and he did important stuff on the show, even getting a kick-ass death. Man, it sucks to be a Dinobot fan, given that Hasbro has yet to make a good figure based on how Dinobot looked in the show. But, hey, Dinobot was an important character.

Ramulus: I was going to use Spittor. But, Ramulus works better for this example. Ramulus has shown up...where? Ah, yes, he was a secondary character in some bad comics. Wow. Great showing that Ramulus is making so far.... Ramulus never got a good toy....but who the fuck cares? Ramulus never did anything that matters.

Rattrap: Had shitty toys. Did cool stuff in the cartoon.

Spittor: Fuck it, I will use Spittor. Spittor has been case from two good moulds (one of them being recoloured in the UK, bringing Spittor's total figure count up to 3). Spittor is a good toy. But, in terms of context, Spittor is somewhere behind Ramulus (having done less in some bad comics than Ramulus).

Gushar: What the fuck was his name in the US? Oh, wait, Slapper. That was his name. He was the red Spittor recolour from RiD. He was a secondary character who showed up as part of a trio of clowns in a bad cartoon. Nobody fucking cares about him.

For some strange reason, people want Prowl, Wheeljack and Rattrap more than they want Spittor or Ramulus. For some inexplicable reason, Jazz and Dinobot are going to sell more toys than some non-screen/page character that is likely a recolour of a pre-existing toy made to represent a character than matters.


I did not skip the IDW Thundercracker because I already have a Thundercracker (as good as 2010 Thundercracker is). I skipped it because the mould is terrible (as much as I like the comic it was included with).

And now Hasbro’s almost completely catering to those people in how they handle the brand, and it is the cancer that is killing Transformers.

Is it? Is there proof of this killing the brand?

Ok, so a lot this comes from the vapid early days of the internet. MP is too expensive for me and I'm actually pretty happy with voyager Prime anyway (although I did manage to nab Hybrid style for $45 this weekend and that thing is all kinds of nifty). And, would actually be ok with hasbro periodically reissuing toys once they reach that technological apex like they have in Star Wars. I already have the best Vader I can get. But, I like the fact that I can still get a decent one if I didn't have one. And I have become a conaseur of Astromech droids.

There's no way we'd be talking about Go-Bots, those toys sucked worse than the G1 toys.

BWprowl wrote:

Shockwave wrote:Why? Why is your perspective the right one?

I’m not saying my perspective is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, I’m saying what my perspective is and why having it has made me so frustrated with this franchise for the better part of a year or two.

The "old shit" is what made the franchise to begin with, if you're going to ditch it why not just start an entirely new different franchise based on whatever new different thing? Franchises HAVE to stay true to their core concept or they start to suck. This has been proven many times in many franchises already and even in TF itself. Even if we limit that statement to just the characters, there's still going to be some resistance from the fandom. As there should be. Because fans have already invested our time and money on those characters and we didn't waste all of that just to have some young whippersnapper come along and wipe it out for no other reason than "I'm sick of hearing old people yammer on about those things they like". If there's not going to be any connection between the new thing and the old thing then again, why bother? Just come up with a new franchise altogether.

The BIG difference between TF staying true to its core concepts compared to other series is that TF’s core concepts aren’t rooted in characters and appearance. GI Joe, for instance, HAS to have Joes fighting Cobra, with recognizable roles occupied by particular characters, or it just becomes generic soldier action figures. TF, on the other hand, only needs robots from a planet called Cybertron transforming into *stuff*, it doesn’t need the same characters or factions or design philosophy to ‘stay true’ to this, Beast Wars proved that.

I’ve used Kamen Rider as a comparative example to this sort of thing before, and I’ll do so again because it illustrates my point so well: Just because the original Kamen Rider was a guy named Takeshi Hongo whose hero persona was based on a grasshopper and fought an evil organization called Shocker doesn’t mean EVERY Kamen Rider that comes after him needs to be named Takeshi Hongo, be based on a grasshopper, and fight an evil organization named Shocker. In fact, none of the later ones have that. The ‘core elements’ of what make the Rider are there (mask, belt, bike, ass-kicking), but everything else is fair game for revamping. Last year’s Kamen Rider was a wizard named Haruto who wore red and black, who cast spells by swiping rings over his belt, drawing on the power of the phantom dragon that resided within him to fight other mythological Phantoms. This year? He’s a breakdancing blue and orange Samurai named Kouta who transforms by putting different fruit-themed locks on his belt that deploy matching fruit-themed armor on him, and he’s engaged in a turf war with other similar-armored Riders.

Meanwhile, TF throughout its last three ‘new’ incarnations, has been content to keep using guys named Optimus Prime and Bumblebee and Megatron who keep turning into vehicles. You can see why I’m excited and engaged by one franchise and frustratingly burnt out by the other.

I disagree with this up to a point and that point is the point you mentioned with the Star Wars toys. I bought a Darth Vader figure back in 2006 and have not needed a new one since. Star Wars and GI Joe have already reached that apex point for me. Unfortunately, articulation and tooling on TFs doesn't hold up as well. By and large, I am happy with Classics voyager Optimus being my representation of G1 Prime, but that mold has not aged well over the years. It's not terrible, but it there is room for some improvement. Wanting toys with articulation that is standard fare right now is not greedy. I mean, what's wrong with people wanting their favorite characters to have the best possible toys they can?

Well for one thing, Masterpiece Optimus Prime exists. Across multiple variations, even. If anything, that should serve as a guarantee that Hasbro never has to make another G1-ish Optimus Prime again.

Which part, the part about G1 toys being better than BW toys, or the part about wanting re-made BW toys?

Um all of it actually. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say any of this, at least not with the implication of one relating to the other.

Alright, hold onto your ass then because this is what it’s all about. This is what it has *always* been all about.

Way back in the days of the Beast Era, I CONSTANTLY was, as best as my dumbass, twelve-year-old self could, arguing with older fans who emphatically claimed that the G1 toys were better than current BW (and later BM) toys, which obviously totally sucked. Never mind that the sculpting, articulation, transformation complexity, durability, and other elements of the Beast toys were miles ahead of what the G1 stuff had offered, they wanted to hear none of that; the G1 toys were ‘just better’, for whatever reason. A lot of times they’d throw out the “They were great for their time!” argument (never mind the fact that, by virtue of actually being Diaclone toys produced in the late 70’s, most G1 toys were actually out-dated even in their own time), but for the most part there was this magic intangible greatness to the G1 toys that the BW toys could never top, despite how insanely technically marvelous I could tell they were (the articulation of BW toys alone still blows a lot of ‘modern’ figures out of the water).

So whatever, right? But then RiD gets brought over here, and these people start excitedly talking about how great stuff like the Optimus Prime and the Prowl from the line are, despite the fact that they’re basically at the same level as the Beast toys that supposedly sucked so bad. Uh, what? Things get even more incongruous years later, in Classics, when now everyone’s declaring these the best Transformers ever, despite the fact that they’re still barely at a level above those supposedly-horrible Beast Wars toys. Really, you were the guys telling me about a decade ago that G1 Optimus Prime was a better toy than Ultra Optimus Primal, and now you’re hailing Classics Prime as the best thing ever? What happened to thinking Hasbro could never improve on those glorious G1 toys? Why, just years after you were saying you were happy with the G1 toys and didn’t want anything to do with these Beast toys, are you suddenly clamoring for BW-level toys of guys like Starscream and Mirage?

Oh.

OOOHH!!!

These people didn’t give a shit about the toys themselves *at all*. They just wanted *more* figures of guys from back when THEY got into the franchise. For them it was never about how *good* the toys actually were, they weren’t even looking at the quality of the actual things. They didn’t care about the quantum leap in articulation that ball joints represented, or the amazingly unique designs of the Vehicons and how personality was incorporated into them, or cute ideas like Armada’s mini-combiners. All they cared was that it Looked Like Some Dude. They didn’t want a toy named Starscream to be repainted into a toy named Skywarp because the mold might look snazzy in black and purple, they just wanted it because if there’s a Starscream, it HAS to be made into Skywarp later.

And now Hasbro’s almost completely catering to those people in how they handle the brand, and it is the cancer that is killing Transformers.

1st off those Takara Diaclone toys were made around 1981 to 1982. That 1970's Stamp on some of the Microchange & Diaclone toys was a brand patent stamp from start to finish. The Microchange toys were much older than the Diaclone toys were. Most of the Micro-change molds used for the TF brand were not created in 1973 nor 1974. Soundwave's alt mode didn't even exist in the real world in 1973 nor 1974.

2ND,I agree with you that using the same core cast over & over is a bad move. only fans buy the same stuff over & over. Parents/kids are not interested in having dozens/hundreds of the same core cast being released thru various lines & sizes within a Three year time period. This is why the TF toy sales are so low/poor world wide.

I enjoyed the first few years of the Beast Wars toy line. the last year was by far the worse,Those TM2,Fuzors & Animorphs toys were epic garbage. The only TM2 Toy that was decent was TM2 Tigerhawk.

Those Beast Machines toys were far worse than anything BW created. I suspect the toys were awful due to the TM2 & Fuzors designs being incorporated into the BM toys. It's clear the same BW artist/designers/employees helped create the BM toys.

Dominic wrote: MP Optimus is expensive. I managed to get one cheap on clearance back in '04. But, damn, $80+ for retail would have been painful.

The 20th MP Optimus at some stores in the USA sold for around $60. The 25th MP Optimus depending on the USA store you bought it from cost anywhere from $69.99 to $80. Both the 20th & 25th MP Optimus toys were major shelf warmers,Most USA stores did mass clearance sales on both toys near the 50% price. Fans had plenty of chances to score a mass-clearance MP Optimus.

Dominic wrote:
This actually supports the arguement for making newer toys based on older characters that never had good toys made. Not everybody who wants good toys of old characters is a GeeWunner.

The Problem is Hasbro only focuses on the 1984-1985 cast as the core cast for movie-verse,TFA,TFP,Keon,Construct-bots,etc... Most fans want to see some of the 1986 thru 1990 TF G-1 toys world wide get the same treatment in homage toys like the 1984-1985 cast gets. Simply get a few bones tossed here & their isn't cutting it---> Examples: 1- Releasing Generations Thunderwing as a deluxe & not wanting to make another one in the proper 8 inch Ultra scale with a tiny robot in the shell cavity. 2- not wanting to release anymore Galvatron toys,especially not wanting to do a leader or Ultra version that resembles 1986 Galvatron with a laser canon alt mode. 3- The ironic/sad part is bumblee has received newer toys in every size & is close to getting almost 100 new molds within a 6 year time frame thru various didfferent TF toy lines & size levels.

Shockwave wrote:Ok, so a lot this comes from the vapid early days of the internet. MP is too expensive for me and I'm actually pretty happy with voyager Prime anyway (although I did manage to nab Hybrid style for $45 this weekend and that thing is all kinds of nifty). And, would actually be ok with hasbro periodically reissuing toys once they reach that technological apex like they have in Star Wars. I already have the best Vader I can get. But, I like the fact that I can still get a decent one if I didn't have one. And I have become a conaseur of Astromech droids.

MP Optimus was released in Two different sizes/sculpt,The 20th/25th MP Optimus toy was 12 inches tall. The 2012 MP Optimus was 9 inch leader sized.

20th MP Optimus depending on the USA store you bought it,Some stores like Walmart priced it under $60. 25TH MP Optimus was priced higher around $69 to $79 depending on the USA store you bought it from. Both the 20th & 25th MP Optimus toys were major shelf warmers,Most USA Retailers had to mass-clearance the toy by almost 50% off to get rid of the toy. So Fans had plenty of chances to score a 20th or 25th MP Ptimus for half off in price.

Releasing the same core cast of Characters over & over is selfish/wasteful on Hasbro's part & the fans part. Because TF toy slots are rare,wasting them on the same core cast over & over means hundreds/thousands of other TF toys characters don't get homage new mold toys.

reissuing toys over & over is a bad thing if it's done on a medium or large scale. If it's done on a super tiny scale & fans get to vote world wide for a few reissues per year it's harmless. If it's done on a huge scale like the TF Universe toy line was its a bad thing,as ffans & retailers get frustrated at all the peg/shelf warmers clogging stores & preventing newer product from getting ordered then stocked on shelves. Their is no need for companies to keep reissuing stuff because This is the Internet age,Anybody who wants toys made from years ago can head on over to ebay,amazon,ioffer,etc,to get these toys.

Dom wrote:Gushar: What the fuck was his name in the US? Oh, wait, Slapper. That was his name. He was the red Spittor recolour from RiD. He was a secondary character who showed up as part of a trio of clowns in a bad cartoon. Nobody fucking cares about him.

You shut your whore mouth; RID has aged pretty fantastically for what it is--a parody of Masterforce and Victory.

I can see both sides of this. Prowl came into the franchise at a time where it was evolving and reinventing itself for a new market--largely by necessity, because the old stuff wasn't cutting it anymore. But look at the franchise in Japan, where they largely WERE bringing in new guys--Fire Convoy, when looked at in context with Lio and Big, is just another in a big line of Dudes Who Aren't Optimus Prime In Name Only. Big Convoy fell off my shelf the other day Nd my girlfriend was like, "An Optimus Primal fell on me." The only reason she thought he was Primal instead of Prime is because he has mammoth bits.

When BW was airing, and The Agenda happened, nothing pissed me off more than the fact that I didn't have an Optimus Prime for BW Megs to kill.

Also: BW's success largely comes from the fact that it had an undeniably kickass cartoon. (The early eps suck but it settles in once the Vok start to show up.) If you look at Hasbro's track record, they aren't exactly capable of making such a kickass cartoon anymore. Animated fared well enough and Prime at least is selling toys, but you're probably not going to get the same writing quality on TF anymore--at least not in the cartoons--AND there's way too much executive red tape to cut through. I mean, BW's cartoon succeeded because the writers basically said "Fuck it," and did whatever they wanted. That would NEVER happen in TF today because of what a huge sales juggernaut it is. It just wouldn't.

Now, if the franchise starts to seriously go down the tubes? Then we'll see. Wait for TF5 to either bomb due to new direction, or not get made at all due to nobody being able to direct it, and for Hasbro to lose 200 million dollars, and you'll either get innovation out of desperation, or you'll get the collapse of the fucking toy line entirely like GI Joe.

Dominic wrote:MP Optimus is expensive. I managed to get one cheap on clearance back in '04. But, damn, $80+ for retail would have been painful.

Uh-uh, you don’t get to do that. You can’t say you want something to exist at a certain level of quality, then complain when your demanded near-perfection costs more money than you’re willing to pay. If you’re only forking over ten bucks for a toy, you have to accept that it isn’t going to do everything you want it to do. Better things cost more money, welcome to capitalism.

This actually supports the arguement for making newer toys based on older characters that never had good toys made.

And what about the argument for making newer toys based on guys that already have perfectly fine toys?

Not everybody who wants good toys of old characters is a GeeWunner.

But they still shouldn’t *expect* them, and Hasbro shouldn’t cater to those people.

You are just getting the idea that people want toys based on characters from the show/comic/movie that they might happen to like? You are just now getting this, despite me explaining it how many times?!?!?!?

What, no dude, read the whole post. It dawned on me around Classics that people didn’t care if the toys were good at all, and just wanted them to look like cartoon characters they’d latched onto. That’s what I’m complaining about here: These people don’t like Transformers Toys, they like Generation 1 and Optimus Prime and Jazz.

If the toys were all that mattered, or even the dominant thing, we would be sitting here talking about "Go-Bots", because "Go-Bots" would have beaten the snot out of "Transformers" by the mid-80s. (Actually, if the "Go-Bots" content were the same, I would have been out of the hobby by 92 or so at the very latest, even assuming they were still making new toys. But, you get the idea)

And maybe these days Go-Bots would actually be doing something interesting, instead of a G1-retread for the fourth or fifth time in a row.

That being said, wanting good toys of characters that did not get good toys initially (most of the '84/85 cast) does not make one a GeeWunner. I am fine with getting new characters. (I was fine with Drift being introduced about five years back, and more than happy to buy multiple copies of the toy for customizing even...) I can see a fan of "Beast Wars" wanting better toys of those characters. (Hasbro has never made a good Dinobot figure that looks like Dinobot from the show...which is a big part of why people like Dinobot in the first fucking place.)

Takara’s version of Universe Dinobot came pretty damn close. At least to the point where a tweaked/’better’ mold would be pretty redundant.

And again, it’s not just about new characters, it’s about revamping the whole line because of how stale and repetitive it’s gotten.

The same could be said of the UT characters. I could go for a better "Armada" Red Alert. (I like the old toy. But, I would not mind a better one.)

What on earth is wrong with the original Armada Red Alert? That whole trilogy made a career out of toys that looked just like the show, and Red Alert didn’t even have a lot of the problems other Armada figures had (namely, crippled articulation).

That is why I want a new Mirage figure. The 2006 figure is showing its age.

Again, what the heck is wrong with Classics Mirage? ‘Showing its age’ nothing, Hasbro’s ability to sculpt robots has not appreciably improved since that figure came out, you can stick it next to Universe Hound and RTS Perceptor and Generations Trailcutter and it looks fine. There’s hardly any room for improvement in articulation. Would you seriously pay another $12 and change just to get a Mirage with wrist swivels?

That is also why I still want a good Mirage based on the G1 character model used in the 80s....because Hasbro has never made one.

Yeah, and no one ever made action figures based on ‘Outlaw Star’ or ‘Gunsmith Cats’ either, but I don’t sit around boo-hoo-ing about that. Get over it.

-late edit: character comparison

It’s like you somehow keep missing the parts where I say “Screw characters, I just want toys.”

You once called me out for numbering Jazz, Mirage, Wheeljack and Prowl among my favourites because they all looked the same. Putting aside the fact that all 4 are based on clearly distinctive and different control art, there is also the fact that all of them have done something important somewhere in the franchise.

And how interesting are they as toys compared to each other?
Jazz- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Mirage- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Wheeljack- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest
Prowl- White car who turns into a robot with a car hood for a chest

This is like if all your favorite GI Joe characters were black-suited commando ninjas who came with two swords. I’m sure they’re awesome dudes in the comics and cartoon, but fuck if you aren’t going to get bored with toys of them really fast.

Jazz: Jazz is a favourite of mine. Jazz was prominent in the cartoon and the comic. He did cool things in both the cartoon and the comic. (The same could be said to varying degrees about the other 3. But, the example probably works best for Jazz.) Luckily, Jazz had a better than average G1 figure, which takes some of the sting out of the 2010 figure being so piss poor (even if I still want a betterG1 Jazz or a figure based on how Jazz looked in Costa's run).

God, see this? I love how as soon as a figure falls short of perfection it immediately plummets to ‘piss poor’ in your eyes. Subjective issues like the door-wings and arm-paint aside, Jazz’s biggest problems are a chest that doesn’t lock down and a somewhat lacking face-sculpt. It’s hardly perfect, but it’s not like it lacks major articulation, or falls apart in your hands or anything.

Dinobot I: I may be done with "Beast Wars". But, I can understand why people like Dinobot. He was a main character and he did important stuff on the show, even getting a kick-ass death. Man, it sucks to be a Dinobot fan, given that Hasbro has yet to make a good figure based on how Dinobot looked in the show. But, hey, Dinobot was an important character.

‘Was’ important. He’s not anymore. Make new toys. Make those important characters. Then move on.

Rattrap: Had shitty toys. Did cool stuff in the cartoon.

I’ve been arguing this point ‘til I’ve gone blue in the face, but again, that’s just, like, your opinion, man. In my opinion, Rattrap’s old toy was fine and he was not in need of a new one.

For some strange reason, people want Prowl, Wheeljack and Rattrap more than they want Spittor or Ramulus. For some inexplicable reason, Jazz and Dinobot are going to sell more toys than some non-screen/page character that is likely a recolour of a pre-existing toy made to represent a character than matters.

As I’ve pointed out before though: Beast Wars shits all over the argument that you need to keep making the same guys, the same way to achieve success. Beast Wars was a completely reinvented Transformers line with almost nothing but new characters, and it succeeded spectacularly. Go back to that, do that again! Time was, Hasbro and Takara would revamp the toyline, what the characters were, and how everything worked, and the fiction would follow suite to support that. Nowadays, they’ve taken it backwards, where the fiction just repeats the same things we’ve gotten before from earlier generations, and the toys are made just as support for that. TF has gone from an innovative, constantly-evolving toyline with recurring media support, to a series of comics and films and cartoons all based to different degrees on the same general stuff from thirty years ago, with toylines that just regurgitate characters from out of there. It’s not different from the general Marvel or DC merchandise umbrellas, and it’s awful.

Transformers didn't used to be all about characters, that's why guys didn't even GET more than one toy until stuff like Pretenders and Action Masters rolled around. It used to be about ideas and toy concepts and really innovating and making cool new stuff. Switching over to being all about characters a select group of old people remember from a mediocre cartoon and a slightly better comic series has absolutely wrecked the brand, in my eyes.

Is it? Is there proof of this killing the brand?

It’s killing the brand for me. I walk into the aisle now and just shake my head because I can’t think of a reason to buy anything there, much as I know I love Transformers toys in general (seriously, why did I buy that Hoist? Anyone want it?).

There’s also the fact that how TF is handled by Hasbro now is largely how they handled GI Joe throughout its lifespan. And look at where GI Joe is now…