Comics are Awesome II

[andersonh1]

This is probably wise, really. Why fuck up "The Killing Joke", a book by a big-name comics writer that has a kind of timeless appeal and is a regular seller for DC? I guess if the crippling never happens, then Killing Joke's right up there with Dark Knight and the like, stuff that is good, but clearly never happened in main continuity, but apparently DC ain't willing to burn that bridge yet.

Then leave her crippled. If the event is undone in context, then it has even less weight than if it is not counted to begin with.

Do people never recover from serious injuries? Sure they do, and there's drama to be mined from Barbara having to recover from being shot, molested and crippled by the Joker. Admittedly, I despise "The Killing Joke" and think it's a terrible story, but DC didn't give me a vote.

All that aside, the "miracle" recovery where Barbara can walk again is unsatisfying. I hope there's more to it than that. On the other hand, the fact that she's grappling with flashbacks and has serious issues over the trumatic events that happened to her is realistic, and does save the book from being simply a "we swept it under the rug, it never happened" type of retcon. I think you dismiss it unfairly, Dom. The attack and paralysis happened, it affected her life deeply and is still affecting her life, even if she can walk again.

[Onslaught Six]

This is probably wise, really. Why fuck up "The Killing Joke", a book by a big-name comics writer that has a kind of timeless appeal and is a regular seller for DC? I guess if the crippling never happens, then Killing Joke's right up there with Dark Knight and the like, stuff that is good, but clearly never happened in main continuity, but apparently DC ain't willing to burn that bridge yet.

Then leave her crippled. If the event is undone in context, then it has even less weight than if it is not counted to begin with.

Do people never recover from serious injuries? Sure they do, and there's drama to be mined from Barbara having to recover from being shot, molested and crippled by the Joker. Admittedly, I despise "The Killing Joke" and think it's a terrible story, but DC didn't give me a vote.

Hey, there's only 'vaguely implied' molestation in The Killing Joke. You know if Alan Moore wanted it to be concrete, he would have written the words down on the page.

And I dunno if being crippled is something you can just get better from. Admittedly, I am not a cripple, nor do I know anyone who is (Am I even using a PC term here? Do I even care?) so I don't know the ins and outs of it.

[Sparky Prime]

I was talking about "Final Crisis".

Still don't see how you can claim it's about nothing having meaning.

Because it was presented as, and viscerally feels like, one.

Again, how was it presented as such when DC never called it a reboot, and even said not to call it a reboot when fans started calling it that instead of relaunch, which started even before DC gave out any details about how the relaunch would be effecting the DCU? And while some titles certainly are more of a reboot, clearly not all of them are, so as a whole I can't see how it feels like a reboot.

Because McCarthy had more important things to do than have the Autobots walking around complaining for the sake of Furman.

Like having them stuck on Cybertron with nothing else to do but complain for 6+ issues? Yeah, no, having the continuity addressed earlier should have been more important and would have better shown how truely agonizing the Autobots situation was if we actually saw they were constantly in pain on Cybertron.

[Dominic]

Still don't see how you can claim it's about nothing having meaning.

Because it says as much in issue 6 or 7. (And, there are plenty of annotation pages out there.)

And while some titles certainly are more of a reboot, clearly not all of them are, so as a whole I can't see how it feels like a reboot.

Big event story. History of some characters changes. Yeah, sounds like a reboot to me.

Like having them stuck on Cybertron with nothing else to do but complain for 6+ issues? Yeah, no, having the continuity addressed earlier would have been more important and better shown how truely agonizing the Autobots situation was if we actually saw they were constantly in pain on Cybertron.

It was not a question of them being in pure agony. It was more like how you would feel after several long and strenuous days, maybe adding in some humidity.

And, as I have said before, having the Autobots do nothing for 6 issues was kind of the point.

[Sparky Prime]

Because it says as much in issue 6 or 7. (And, there are plenty of annotation pages out there.)

Care to point out more specifics because I cannot find anything to support that claim.

(And again, "Final Crisis" wasn't exactly an event reality altering story like the other Crisis stories and Flashpoint)

Big event story. History of some characters changes. Yeah, sounds like a reboot to me.

Key word there: "Some". Other books are literally picking up right where they left off. Some are slightly retconned. Doesn't sound strictly like a reboot to me.

It was not a question of them being in pure agony. It was more like how you would feel after several long and strenuous days, maybe adding in some humidity.

I don't see that it matters what degree of pain they were experiencing. The thing is, they were constantly in pain on Cybertron but we aren't given any mention of that until half way through the series. It would have had more impact if we knew that from the beginning and saw it take its toll over the course of the story.

And, as I have said before, having the Autobots do nothing for 6 issues was kind of the point.

Then why not cover things like the continuity when they have nothing else to do? As I said, at least it would give the readers a better sense of what the Autobots were feeling while on Cybertron and add more impact to their rising tensions.

[andersonh1]

Hey, there's only 'vaguely implied' molestation in The Killing Joke. You know if Alan Moore wanted it to be concrete, he would have written the words down on the page.

And I dunno if being crippled is something you can just get better from. Admittedly, I am not a cripple, nor do I know anyone who is (Am I even using a PC term here? Do I even care?) so I don't know the ins and outs of it.

I doubt it is possible in real life. Still, the point is that DC isn't pretending that Barbara's life wasn't affected by her experience, however "comic-booky" her recovery from paralysis was. It was traumatic, and the character is written as someone still dealing with that trauma.

[Dominic]

Care to point out more specifics because I cannot find anything to support that claim.

(And again, "Final Crisis" wasn't exactly an event reality altering story like the other Crisis stories and Flashpoint)

I wish I could be more precise, but my copy is not handy, and will not be for some time. (Packed it away recently.) One of the scenes I am thinking of is on the JLI satellite though. I think it is Wonder Woman talking.

And, there were changes to the timeline in FC, as evidenced by Nazi Superman and a few other characters being around.

Key word there: "Some". Other books are literally picking up right where they left off. Some are slightly retconned. Doesn't sound strictly like a reboot to me.

Substantively, this is the same as CoIE. Some characters were changed. But, aside from members of Infinity Incorporated, recent characers or recentely retooled characters (Green Arrow or Firestorm come to mind) were largely unchanged.

I doubt it is possible in real life. Still, the point is that DC isn't pretending that Barbara's life wasn't affected by her experience, however "comic-booky" her recovery from paralysis was. It was traumatic, and the character is written as someone still dealing with that trauma.

This gets in to one of the problems with cape and mask fiction. In a world where death is often an invonvenience and grievous injuries are often fixable, how traumatic (or unusual) would Gordon's experiences have been?


Dom
-notes that "Ultimates" half asses that question.

[andersonh1]

This gets in to one of the problems with cape and mask fiction. In a world where death is often an invonvenience and grievous injuries are often fixable, how traumatic (or unusual) would Gordon's experiences have been?

It is absolutely a problem, and my answer would be that it depends on the writer and character. Some writers handle the issue better than others. And in flipping through the book, the trauma Barbara experienced does play a major part in the plot, to the point that I'm forced to question whether she should even be out fighting crime. I think this may be a case where a traumatic event has more concrete effects than comic book injuries/deaths often do.

[BWprowl]

Because it says as much in issue 6 or 7. (And, there are plenty of annotation pages out there.)

Care to point out more specifics because I cannot find anything to support that claim.

(And again, "Final Crisis" wasn't exactly an event reality altering story like the other Crisis stories and Flashpoint)

Man, that was the entire point of Final Crisis. The whole thing was a metatext set up by Morrison, because he thought that authorial intent and editorial control over comic stories was robbing them of their 'life'. Too many stories were being written with characters because writers just wanted to tell a particular story and used whatever book they happened to be writing to do it, and other characters would have stupid changes and stuff happen to them on account of DC editorial wanting an overhaul/reboot whenever. All these stories were too focused on having outside meanings or agendas, thus they lost all meaning within the DC Universe stories themselves (the old idea that nothing sticks in comics anymore). That's why it's supposed to be the 'Final Crisis': Morrison was trying to set up a situation where this would be the last big publicity-spurned event, and the characters could take control of the stories back and be the actual focus again. By robbing the story of any outside meaning and focusing it purely on the 'inner' story and how the characters worked within, Morrison was trying to create a precedent for characters that would 'naturally' avoid the aforementioned types of stories from robbing them of their 'life' as characters.

Have I mentioned before that Morrison is fucking crazy? Although admittedly, I did like FC more the second time around when I got what was going on.

But yeah, tl;dr Final Crisis is about how comic stories don't/shouldn't have any outside meaning and should become entirely character based/driven instead.

[Sparky Prime]

I wish I could be more precise, but my copy is not handy, and will not be for some time. (Packed it away recently.) One of the scenes I am thinking of is on the JLI satellite though. I think it is Wonder Woman talking.

And, there were changes to the timeline in FC, as evidenced by Nazi Superman and a few other characters being around.

Well like I say, I can't find evidence of anyone suggesting it has no meaning online.

And what I mean is that at the end of Final Crisis, things are pretty much back to normal for the DCU. Unlike other Crisis events and Flashpoint.

Substantively, this is the same as CoIE. Some characters were changed. But, aside from members of Infinity Incorporated, recent characers or recentely retooled characters (Green Arrow or Firestorm come to mind) were largely unchanged.

"Substantively" the same? I have to disagree completely. CoIE was primarily done to do away with the multiverse concept, with the added ability for creators to retool characters in the aftermath. Flashpoint set up for some characters to be retooled, but no where close to the scale and scope CoIE did.

Man, that was the entire point of Final Crisis. The whole thing was a metatext set up by Morrison, because he thought that authorial intent and editorial control over comic stories was robbing them of their 'life'.

That makes it sound like the story has meaning to me.