Rodimus, Paradron, Cybertron, yadda yadda

[Sparky Prime]

I would disagree. Nobody would, nor should, take a fall for enemy civilians.

I don't see how standing up for the rights of any civilians would be "taking a fall". Look at some modern day post-9/11 examples. Because of the actions of a terrorist group supposedly in the name of their religion, does that mean everyone of the Islamic faith in-turn deserves hostility? No, of course not. What one group does doesn't reflect the views of everyone in the whole. And, in fact, many political leaders have voiced their support for Islamic people (such as with this whole debate over a Mosque going in near the World Trade Center). So why would/should it be any different with German citizens circa 1945?

[Dominic]

I will say it.

Political. Expedient.

Germans were, (not without reason), demonized through much of the war. A politician, or anyone, standing up for them would have been totally off message. In contast, while there has been a spike in Islamophobia, there has not been an organized propaganda effort to demonize all Muslims.

And, to bring it back to the Trek, (which is closer to TF than the Godwin^ that is any reference to the 2001 attacks), the Borg do not meaningfully differentiate as individuals. Their victims, (pre-Borg), would be individuals. But, as Borg, they are not individuals.


Dom
-it had to happen.

[Shockwave]

Germans now who were not around in 1945 are even embarrased by that part of their history to the point where they don't want to be associated with anything violent at all. In fact, I once went to a very awkward Star Trek convention where Kate Mulgrew was on stage calling the Germans out on it.

[Sparky Prime]

Germans were, (not without reason), demonized through much of the war. A politician, or anyone, standing up for them would have been totally off message. In contast, while there has been a spike in Islamophobia, there has not been an organized propaganda effort to demonize all Muslims.

No, if you look at the propaganda from World War II, the focus wasn't so much on the Germans, rather, the focus was more specifically on demonizing the Nazi's. However, there was quite a bit of propaganda that indiscriminately demonized the Japanese. But regardless of an organized propaganda effort or not, that doesn't make it right to let innocent civilians get hurt/killed. Also, keep in mind the mass media then wasn't what it is today. Information from the war zone back then would have been slower to reach the home front, by which time it would have been subject to various things like censorship, deception and propaganda of the time period. In other words, they could stand up against such war crimes with out being "totally off message" with the general public. In fact, there are records of such war crimes committed by Allied troops during the war that did lead to court-martial (although admittedly historians have also found some got by).

And, to bring it back to the Trek, (which is closer to TF than the Godwin^ that is any reference to the 2001 attacks), the Borg do not meaningfully differentiate as individuals. Their victims, (pre-Borg), would be individuals. But, as Borg, they are not individuals.

But a Borg can be restored to an individual if their link to the Collective is cut off. As such, there is no reason to completely dismiss them just because the Borg themselves don't meaningfully differentiate individuals.

Germans now who were not around in 1945 are even embarrased by that part of their history to the point where they don't want to be associated with anything violent at all. In fact, I once went to a very awkward Star Trek convention where Kate Mulgrew was on stage calling the Germans out on it.

Yes, this is a good point to keep in mind. And as you'd mentioned earlier, German companies have prevented toys like Alternators Bumblebee based on a VW Bug because they don't want to be associated anymore with any sort of machines of war.

[Dominic]

Fun fact: Volkswagen started out as a Nazi run company. Now, hippies drive the damned cars.

But a Borg can be restored to an individual if their link to the Collective is cut off. As such, there is no reason to completely dismiss them just because the Borg themselves don't meaningfully differentiate individuals.

But, how many lives would it cost the Federation to save said Borg from themselves? And, more importantly, that arguement was not used, (nor could it have been used), in the episode. The episode in question was an example of fuzzy Trek logic.


Okay, TF morals....

Grimlock trying to keep Tracks from getting repaired in the UK comics. Thoughts?

[Sparky Prime]

But, how many lives would it cost the Federation to save said Borg from themselves?

Again, Hugh learning individuality would turn out to spread among the Borg on the ship that rescued him with no loss of Federation lives. And Voyager managed to free a number of Drones through Unimatrix Zero with no losses themselves. So yeah, we've seen it can be done with no loss of life to the Federation at all.

And, more importantly, that arguement was not used, (nor could it have been used), in the episode. The episode in question was an example of fuzzy Trek logic.

True, the episode doesn't cover all its bases, but fuzzy logic or not, in the end they leave the Borg who learned individuality alive.

Grimlock trying to keep Tracks from getting repaired in the UK comics. Thoughts?

It would help if that story actually gave some explanation for Grimlock's motivation. But then, Grimlock shouldn't be trying to keep one of his own comrades offline anyway.

[Dominic]

If I recall, many of the Borg who ended up learning to be individuals turned out more dangerous for it.

Grimlock's motivation was clearly shown in the story. He did not like Tracks.


Dom
-no. Really. He did not like Tracks.

[Sparky Prime]

If I recall, many of the Borg who ended up learning to be individuals turned out more dangerous for it.

Not on their own they weren't. You're thinking of while they were under the influence of Lore. Once he was deactivated, those Borg stopped fighting.

Grimlock's motivation was clearly shown in the story. He did not like Tracks.

That's not a motivation. Grimlock doesn't like a lot of his fellow Autobots, but you don't see him trying to keep them all from getting repaired. So what makes Tracks so special that he would go to those lengths?

[Shockwave]

I don't even remember the Tracks story.

[Onslaught Six]

Grimlock's motivation was clearly shown in the story. He did not like Tracks.

That's not a motivation. Grimlock doesn't like a lot of his fellow Autobots, but you don't see him trying to keep them all from getting repaired. So what makes Tracks so special that he would go to those lengths?

Well, Tracks got into the Energon a little too much one night, and as we all know Grimlock is a strict homophobe...You can see where this is going.