TF Views

Shockwave wrote:I think the main difference between mine and GB's argument is that I'm arguing mass US retail release only, while GB, you seem to be only looking at the bigger spectrum of everything that's been released ever. And really, those are two completely separate arguments that have almost nothing to do with each other. Yeah, in the scope of everything released ever, you're right, regular TC has been released twice. I'm arguing only in the scope of what's been released at regular retail, and in that sense, regular Thundy hasn't happened yet. In that scope I would prefer regular Thundy before anything else and really feel gyped that we got freakin' Acid Storm before him. Now, going back to the broader scope of everything ever, I would prefer AMTC before yet another limited regular Thundy.

Shockwave
-Actually regards things as "never been released" if I don't see them at retail.

There's a fair part of this in which we actually agree. I am looking at larger scope. I do resent being told "no AMTC if it means no regular TC first" when you guys have had TWO chances to get regular TC, be it at retail or not. That said... I'm especially annoyed that you use this absurd logic to argue that regular retail TC could, in any way, get bumped at retail because AMTC somehow came into existence. The existence of Acid Storm means nothing. It's ludicrous to make the connection.

Hasbro seems to be avoiding releasing a regular colors TC figure. I have no idea why. But, their behavior indicates that they do not, for whatever reason, want to release a toy that would sell.

do resent being told "no AMTC if it means no regular TC first" when you guys have had TWO chances to get regular TC, be it at retail or not.

What chances did most collectors have to get a "Classics" or "Henkei" Thundercracker? Realisitcally?

Most people have to put their hobbies second, after *real* bills and expenses. Coughing up $300+ for a boxed set, (or more on after market), is not a *real* option for most collectors. The "Henkei" release was cheaper, ringing in at just shy of triple digits.

I have a "Henkei" Thundercracker, meaning I more or less have a Thundercracker. But, I am not going to say that it weren't no thang to get one. I was making pretty good money at the time, and I *still* had to think long and hard before ordering one, and I still question the logic of that decision sometimes.

This is a hobby, not a way of life. Not everybody is willing to spend all of their money on toys. Hell, I would not even want to spend all of my (meager) disposable money on stupidly rare toys.


Dom
-for a toy only a small number of insular fans want?

No it's not. They used the mold to produce a seeker and instead of making regular TC, they gave us Acid Storm. So they used the mold, had the chance to give us what we wanted and gave us something else instead. It is therefore not unreasonable to think that they would do so again. I really don't see why you're so up in arms about the rest of us wanting a regular TC that we can get at Target for 12 bucks. Arguing for a mass release TC doesn't mean I'm arguing AGAINST AMTC. Best case scenario: The both get released at retail. Barring that I suspect a more likely scenario to be getting mass retail regular TC and AMTC as an exclusive.

And for the record, I actually do have the Henkei version.

Shockwave
-Actually would be ok with getting AMTC at retail first.

EDIT: Was apparently posting this at the same time Dom was.

Shockwave wrote:No it's not. They used the mold to produce a seeker and instead of making regular TC, they gave us Acid Storm. So they used the mold, had the chance to give us what we wanted and gave us something else instead. It is therefore not unreasonable to think that they would do so again. I really don't see why you're so up in arms about the rest of us wanting a regular TC that we can get at Target for 12 bucks. Arguing for a mass release TC doesn't mean I'm arguing AGAINST AMTC. Best case scenario: The both get released at retail. Barring that I suspect a more likely scenario to be getting mass retail regular TC and AMTC as an exclusive.

And for the record, I actually do have the Henkei version.

Shockwave
-Actually would be ok with getting AMTC at retail first.

EDIT: Was apparently posting this at the same time Dom was.

This particular "up in arms" incident started because the Q&A question was worded in such a way as to say, in essence, "no, not this other idea that some folks out there want (i.e., AMTC), but regular Thundercracker." I've said, time and again, this is NOT about AMTC vs. any other particular idea. I don't appreciate it when other people make it look like a competition, as if there is some set number of "slots" available within which all ideas must fit.

As to the Acid Storm/AMTC analogy... well, we clearly have different perspectives on this, but I'll quote the line I made up a few years ago that relates to these kinds of things:

"Blackrock's Law of Desired Toy Potentiality"

The demonstrated ability of a toymaker to do a particular cool thing is not an indicator of the likelihood of any other particular cool thing being done in the future.

Yes, Hasbro can and will do really odd things from time to time. That doesn't mean they're going to do any particular really odd thing before something that we all know makes a lot more sense.

(That, of course, doesn't even get into the question of whether or not Hasbro would have done mass-retail-Thundercracker if only they hadn't done Acid Storm, which I dispute.)

Oooooohhhh ok, I think I see what happened here. The question that we were asking wasn't about not getting AMTC, it was about wanting a regular version at retail. Many of us feel like we've been screwed out of owning one because of what is now referred to as "Thundergate" (ie: The Botcon seeker bull). The intent of the question was to call Hasbro out on the carpet regarding that, not to imply that we didn't want AMTC. Truth be told, most of us here actually DO want AMTC. The question was worded the way it was to ask specifically about that particular version so that Hasbro couldn't do what they have a history of doing which is to find a loophole to weasel out of a question.

Shockwave
-Sorry for the confusion.

I don't appreciate it when other people make it look like a competition, as if there is some set number of "slots" available within which all ideas must fit.

There actually are a limited number of slots in every line though. Every line has a certain number of price points, a certain number of waves, and a certain number of toys in each wave.

Hasbro is also fond of the "too many _______" line of thinking, even if they apply it inconsistently.

Given this, it is not unreasonable to have assumed that Hasbro would conveniently misread the question we asked as "when are you making AMTC?", or treating an AMTC release, (even an exclusive one), as being "good enough" to satisfy fan demand for Thundercracker.

You might not see it as a binary choice, but I am willing to bet that Hasbro would, if only based on previous statement and actions by Hasbro.

I would support any mass release pressing of that mould, if only because it would mean *more* custom fodder.


Dom
-still not buying the "2 previous releases of Thundercracker" line.

andersonh1 wrote:Those aren't too bad, all things considered. Particularly the reasonably straight answer about Thundercracker.

I felt similarly, it seemed to me like a step in the right direction.

Dominic wrote:Okay, lets parse this:

Dion is dead. Thankfully, this puts some really bad fanfics to bed. This also casts a shadow on the club figure. I suppose the club Dion figure could be reconciled as being from an alternate timeline or something. (The fact that there is an Ironhide and/or Magnus is most other timelines, including timelines where Dion died, still mercifully rules out the fanon of the 90s.)

If not for Side-gate, (the recent troubles at the wiki owing to the Almanac being written in a self-indulgent way), I get the feeling this would generate more buzz.

Hey, we got a straight answer about it, that's good enough for starters. Now the accolades who have read this answer will spread it among the disinformation to cleanse it away.

Their Thundergate answer was pretty much what I expected. They recognize a problem, but make no promises to do anything about it. Bah.

That's pretty much SOP, they may have one in the pipe for just before the next movie, or they may be holding it for after the movie 3 line, or they may have no actual plans yet, but in all those scenarios it'd be too soon to confirm a figure in the works.

Shockwave wrote:Yeah, so I guess that means we'll get regular Thundy in 2012. Assuming the Mayans are wrong

The Mayans aren't wrong, it's the idiots who are misinterpretting what the Mayans are saying that are wrong. The Mayans are saying "ok, turn a page on the calendar" and the misinterprettors are saying "OH MY GOD THERE ARE NO MORE PAGES IN THE CALENDAR AFTER THIS!!!" (despite there being something like a trillion years left in the potential Mayan calendar system) That said, I don't want to wait until 2012 for ThunderMcCrackers.

G.B. Blackrock wrote:I'm always mystified by questions like that Thundercracker one where the asker seems to legitimately fear that AM Thundercracker (which I do obviously very much want to see get made) may somehow get made, at retail, without a "regular" Thundercracker release. (For my part, I say, "May it actually be so!" But I don't for a moment believe that AM Thundercracker would actually supplant a hypothetical "regular" Thundercracker.)

(I'm almost as mystified that such fans don't count either the BotCon version OR the Henkei versions as somehow legitimate. Folks, you've had a couple of chances already! I'd love for AMTC to have had that many chances!)

The idea that they were even thinking about AM Thunderpants puts a shudder in my nightmares. That AM was pretty much the fugliest color scheme in all of Transformers, and while I don't doubt it has nostalgic appeal to some folks, the idea that it could make mass-market seems really insane to me, but the idea that a product with a recgonizable TF name like Thundercracker could be on pegs looking like that when there hasn't been a chance at the original is downright head-exploding. I mean, for corn's sake, what is this supposed to be saying? "The designers on this toy were extremely colorblind, and want to ensure that you will be too after looking at it." I just don't see why it should have a place on shelves, if it hadn't already been done once and Hasbro released it now, we'd be yelling our heads off at them for trying something so ugly.

The Botcon version was limited to a $300 set that was 1500 pieces. The Henkei version is an incredibly pricey overseas version. They're both essentially unobtainable.

Honestly, I think some fans put too much stock into those outrageous color schemes from the late '80s and early '90s. Those were bad ideas then meant to tantalize young children into buying product, and nothing more. They are the equivalent of Neon Camo Batman (a real figure!!!), the only reason those exist is to sucker kids and parents with bright colors so they'll buy the same thing again.

Dominic wrote:Hasbro seems to be avoiding releasing a regular colors TC figure. I have no idea why. But, their behavior indicates that they do not, for whatever reason, want to release a toy that would sell.

I disagree that they're actively avoiding it. It's the same mold as the others, they don't want too much of the same mold on shelves so it doesn't have a large window. And its colors are similar to Dirge who is coming out soon. So they have a version of the mold on shelves now, that will be carrying through a couple waves, and then they have another version of the mold that is in similar colors that will be carrying on after that for a few waves, that takes us through the end of the year. Even if they have one planned for March, it's too early for them to reveal that.

Shockwave wrote:No it's not. They used the mold to produce a seeker and instead of making regular TC, they gave us Acid Storm. So they used the mold, had the chance to give us what we wanted and gave us something else instead. It is therefore not unreasonable to think that they would do so again. I really don't see why you're so up in arms about the rest of us wanting a regular TC that we can get at Target for 12 bucks. Arguing for a mass release TC doesn't mean I'm arguing AGAINST AMTC. Best case scenario: The both get released at retail. Barring that I suspect a more likely scenario to be getting mass retail regular TC and AMTC as an exclusive.

I try to give Ass Storm the benefit of the doubt, Hasbro had locked themselves into the exclusivity of those figures at the time, but yeah, enough time had passed that they could have gotten away with it and not given Archer's passing fancy for a green jet a go instead.

AMTC is fine as an exclusive, I just don't think it has a place at mass-retail. It is a nostalgic niche concept that has nothing to say at market today.

G.B. Blackrock wrote:This particular "up in arms" incident started because the Q&A question was worded in such a way as to say, in essence, "no, not this other idea that some folks out there want (i.e., AMTC), but regular Thundercracker." I've said, time and again, this is NOT about AMTC vs. any other particular idea. I don't appreciate it when other people make it look like a competition, as if there is some set number of "slots" available within which all ideas must fit.

We wanted to make sure Hasbro knew we were specifically asking for a regular Thundercracker, not anything else. It wasn't only AMTC that was mentioned as something we weren't talking about, we didn't want to see Hasbro use the answer to make some alternate platform statement one way or the other. We were asking only about the original. The discussion here is where I think this "1 or the other" thing has really come up. But let's be realistic, there are only a set number of slots available, Hasbro Transformers runs their brand in a specific manner, it's a business to them, they can't just drop another repaint on retailers in a case, they have agreements and budgets and schedules to make, so for the mass retail line it really is that sort of competition.

(That, of course, doesn't even get into the question of whether or not Hasbro would have done mass-retail-Thundercracker if only they hadn't done Acid Storm, which I dispute.)

This is true, and yet also inaccurate. There are no guarantees that Acid Storm's slot took over Thundercracker, but Hasbro TF has a thinking that says "we don't want to overload the market on any 1 mold or anything that looks too similar so it has to be spaced out", and figures that are in 1 wave end up carrying over into later waves' cases. So when Acid Storm comes out, it means that for a few cycles there will be no chance for Thundercracker at mass-retail. Ramjet locks out Dirge for 3 months, and Dirge's release will lock out Thundercracker for a few months. If hypothetically they were to re-release Skywarp after Dirge, then Thundercracker won't come out at that time either and would have 3 more months to be in "wait and see" land, and then the movie line puts the Generations line on hiatus and it takes another 18 months to get back to it.

In some ways, it's a bit ass-backwards because there is the whole issue of collectors wanting to get multiple seekers at once, having co-sells that appeal to building up Decepticon forces, but Hasbro feels there are more casual collectors (including kids and parents) who would be more confused by multiple characters in the same mold on pegs at 1 time and wants to ensure their participation in the line.

Anyway, I hope you do get your AMTC, I just hope it's never at mass-retail, that magically Hasbro just mails it to everybody on the list who asks for it.


Speaking of AMTC, looking at the original, at 6 colors spread generously throughout the figure, this one would have to be an exclusive because it would require either extra painting or a double-run of the tooling to get all those crazy colors onto the figure. They can't be molded in 1 pass because some parts are on the tree with others (this is why we'll occasionally see clear parts painted over when they were never meant to be clear) so they have to be molded together or run expensively. So I can say right now with confidence that there is no worry about AMTC at mass-retail, we're never going to see Hasbro pull off a $12 AMTC because it would be a budget-buster. Now, they could do it as an exclusive, but you would probably be looking at some heavy coin, exclusives by their very nature are lower run and thus have to be more expensive to offset the same costs since they can't make back their money in bulk sales, and this one would be extra expensive due to the high number of mixed colors on parts.

Hey, we got a straight answer about it, that's good enough for starters. Now the accolades who have read this answer will spread it among the disinformation to cleanse it away.

I am not really complaining about the answer so much as the fact it will likely be ignored by self-indulgent wankers. That said, kudos to Hasbro on this one.

The Mayans aren't wrong, it's the idiots who are misinterpretting what the Mayans are saying that are wrong. The Mayans are saying "ok, turn a page on the calendar" and the misinterprettors are saying "OH MY GOD THERE ARE NO MORE PAGES IN THE CALENDAR AFTER THIS!!!" (despite there being something like a trillion years left in the potential Mayan calendar system) That said, I don't want to wait until 2012 for ThunderMcCrackers.

The fact that a Mayan calendar maker getting lazy, (after only planning a few thousand years ahead), is likely to cause so much trouble is just frightening to me.

What really has me worried about this end of the world scenario is that so many people seem to believe it. I am *really* not looking forward to my morning commute in 2012.

The Botcon version was limited to a $300 set that was 1500 pieces. The Henkei version is an incredibly pricey overseas version. They're both essentially unobtainable.

The "Henkei" was not terribly expensive if you lived in Japan. The import fees more or less doubled it though, so yeah.

And, the BotCon Thundercracker now costs more than the box set did.

The fact that the mould is so often used means that the expense of making an AMTC could be defrayed. And, I can completely see Hasbro arguing that an exclusive release of AMTC would actually rule out a legitimate Thundercracker.


Dom
-and we need more SG why?

I had a horrible thought last night. What if instead of getting regular Thundy, the next seeker released is ghost Starscream? I don't really believe the 2012 stuff any more than I did the Y2K nonsense. The world didn't end then and it won't end in 2012.

Shockwave
-Notes that Hasbro has reissued Starscream once already.

I'd be okay with Ghost Starscream. I could use a Starscream, and a clear one would be okay in my book.