TF Views

Uh, yes, I did read what you wrote, and I answered your question about the importance of the Matrix. As I said, based on the way Kup and Jazz were talking about it, the Matrix is *that* important in context. The fact they do not spend pages after page talking about it does not make it less important.

What level of explicatiom do you want?

There is even dialogue to indicate that the Matrix is the big Furman-esque McGuffin it usually is. Even if it is not the FurMcGuffin, why is the idea of an object holding tremendous political value so hard to accept?

By the way, when was Mirage an actual traitor? This not the first time that characters have been suspicious of him, but it is the first time it has been used as more than a throwaway reference.


Dom-agrees with O6 about the release dates.

Dominic wrote:Uh, yes, I did read what you wrote, and I answered your question about the importance of the Matrix. As I said, based on the way Kup and Jazz were talking about it, the Matrix is *that* important in context. The fact they do not spend pages after page talking about it does not make it less important.

And as I said, I'm not disputing that the Matrix isn't important, it's the degree of importance it holds in this situation I'm questioning, and to me it just doesn't seem like you're acknowledging that point. And as far as I see with what they talk about on the Matrix, it's mostly about explaining why they shouldn't share the information it has been taken with the other Autobots (because there is only so much they can handle) along with a bit of background on the Matrix. Really, what Kup's speech indicates to me is they can't loose both the Matrix and Prime. Which goes back to my other point that as long as they've got Prime, they've got hope.

There is even dialogue to indicate that the Matrix is the big Furman-esque McGuffin it usually is. Even if it is not the FurMcGuffin, why is the idea of an object holding tremendous political value so hard to accept?

Again, it doesn't look to me like you're really seeing my point. With all of what Kup says about the Matrix, his main point seems more directed toward why they can't tell the Autobots the Matrix is gone with Prime in critical condition. Obviously the Matrix is important as it chooses a leader to be held on a "higher standard" than other Cybertronians. But my point is how important is the Matrix here, in this situation. As long as the Autobots have Optimus alive, the importance of the Matrix doesn't seem to be that great. There is nothing Megatron can do with it, and it really isn't going to help the Autobots out. Now if Optimus died and they were missing the Matrix, that would be a whole other story, but as the story is, it really just seems like a minor issue they'd rather not let the other Autobots know about for the time being.

By the way, when was Mirage an actual traitor? This not the first time that characters have been suspicious of him, but it is the first time it has been used as more than a throwaway reference.

Dreamwave's G1 series, Volume 2 issue 2. Mirage went to tell Ultra Magnus where to find Prowl's team, to which Cliffjumper in particular calls Mirage a traitor for giving away their position to the enemy resulting in their capture. Granted, it turned out not to be that big of a deal, but he did go against his comrades and made some of them question his loyalties.

As I said, several times above, the Matrix is clearly very important in context. If nothing else, losing the Matrix is likely to be really upsetting to the Autobots, while the Decepticons are brawling with each other over it.

Given the general mood of the Autobos, it is clear that whatever shred of hope Prime being (barely) alive gives them is not enough to keep them content, or even civilized. If it were enough, then Ironhide would not have been getting into gights with Prowl and Mirage. (A shred of hope is not reason to believe things are likely to get beter. )



I forgot that plot point from DW v2. But, I do not recall seeing it as treason. Mirage never swore an oath of personal loyalty to Prime and the others. He was, however, an Autobot. He, not unreasonably, wanted an end to the war. And, Magnus (an Autobot and legal authority) was selling and end to the war on behalf of Autobots. At that point, any reasonable person would have seen Prime and co as the trouble makers.


Dom

Dominic wrote:As I said, several times above, the Matrix is clearly very important in context.

Yes, but how important is it in this context? I don't see that they're saying it is as important as you make it out to be.

If nothing else, losing the Matrix is likely to be really upsetting to the Autobots, while the Decepticons are brawling with each other over it.

Obviously the Autobot's would be upset if they found out it was missing. Their moral is already beyond low having been beat, stranded on a dead planet with a traitor among them having sold them out and with their leader barely alive. You think giving them more bad news wouldn't be upsetting? And we really don't know how the Decepticons would react.

Given the general mood of the Autobos, it is clear that whatever shred of hope Prime being (barely) alive gives them is not enough to keep them content, or even civilized. If it were enough, then Ironhide would not have been getting into gights with Prowl and Mirage. (A shred of hope is not reason to believe things are likely to get beter. )

You're missing the point. I'm not saying anything about a shred of hope keeping them content or civilized. Obviously in such a desperate situation, tempers are going to be short and they're going to be reacting more than they normally would. Still, Prime being alive gives them a shred of hope that things could get better. And eventually, they do.

But, I do not recall seeing it as treason.

Cliffjumper certainly did. We see Mirage shunned by the other Autobots while in the holding cell as he sat alone in the corner. Obviously he had his reasons for what he did, but that doesn't excuse that it was still against his crew, his comrades, and so it is understandable they would see his actions as traitorous and were pissed that he turned them in.

As you just said, giving the Autobots more bad news would not be helpful. Letting them know the Matrix was gone would only make their behavior worse. In other words, the Matrix clearly has enormous political/propaganda/symbolic value. I am glad you do understand that.


There is also a line from Kup about dire consequences should Prime die while Megatron has the Matrix. Given the stakes, Prime's condition is more tenuous than Kup and Jazz would prefer. Their personal feelings about Prime aside, it is apparent that there would be an operational consequence.


So, in short, based on things clearly presented in AHM, the Matrux is important. The only way to make it more clear is for McCarthy himself to walk on panel himself, ala Grant Morrison in "Animal Man", and say exactly how very important in context the Matris is in "All Hail Megatron".

And, we see the Decepticons falling apart in issue 10. Before the humans attack, the only thing they have to fight for is.....the Matrix, and Megatron dares them to take.


I now recall the scene you are talking about in "War and Peace". But, objectively, Mirage was not that out of order. Being an Autobot does not involve loyalty oaths to a commander and comrades. An Autobot, Ultra Magnus, told Mirage the war was over. If nothing else, the other Autobots actually justified Shockwave's execution order by being stubborn.

Dom-how high is high?

Mirage's being a traitor is something I really enjoyed having addressed here, since it has so much precedent in the TF mythos, dating back to MTMTE. It plays well off of his role as spy. As an aside, I'd rather like to see an interaction between Mirage, Smokescreen, and Hubcap, as some of the less trustworthy Autobots.

As for the Matrix, a lot of AHM plays off of previously established canon, but rather than referring to specific stories, it's more a transplanting of the same characters and concepts that have become universal after so many years of establishment. For example, I found it fantastic to see Astrotrain's attack in the subway - not because there's a Transformer that turns into a train that happened to be attacking people in a subway, but because it's Astrotrain, and a clever use of an established character. AHM would not be the story it is without using these established characters. Much as every story about Batman does not have to re-establish and define who Batman is, because everyone 'knows' who Batman is, regardless of which arbitrary reboot or alternate universe the story is set in, I feel the same way about elements of the plot here.

I can, however, fully appreciate that Sparky wishes there was more exposition on exactly why the Matrix is of importance here beyond "It's the Matrix", but any link between Prime's death and Megatron using the Matrix's power would bring up the question of why Prime's death is not a priority for the Decepticons.

Dominic wrote:As you just said, giving the Autobots more bad news would not be helpful. Letting them know the Matrix was gone would only make their behavior worse. In other words, the Matrix clearly has enormous political/propaganda/symbolic value. I am glad you do understand that.

I'm not seeing how you put that conclusion together. Certainly, the news of the loss of the Matrix would be another blow to moral, probably make them a bit more depressed, but that's no indication their behavior would become worst. And again, the loss of the Matrix only really comes into play if Prime dies. Just the news of loosing it isn't an indication of "enormous value" for the Matrix itself, rather, they're more concerned what would happen if Prime died while they didn't have it to pass to another potential Autobot leader. But as long as they've got Optimus alive and a shred of hope for his recovery....

So, in short, based on things clearly presented in AHM, the Matrux is important. The only way to make it more clear is for McCarthy himself to walk on panel himself, ala Grant Morrison in "Animal Man", and say exactly how very important in context the Matris is in "All Hail Megatron".

Well then maybe they should have done that, because I don't see anything clearly important about the Matrix in the context of this story. The only thing they talk about is the Matrix chooses the Prime. So is that Megatron's goal? Hope that when Prime dies, it chooses him? That wouldn't explain why he hasn't taken the Matrix before now. Or why he'd sent Optimus Prime to a fate he could potentially (even if unlikely) escape from. So really, the "importance" of the Matrix is a waste as long as Optimus is alive and nothing about Megatron's stranding Autobots on Cybertron makes sense.

But, objectively, Mirage was not that out of order. Being an Autobot does not involve loyalty oaths to a commander and comrades. An Autobot, Ultra Magnus, told Mirage the war was over. If nothing else, the other Autobots actually justified Shockwave's execution order by being stubborn.

"Not that out of order"? The Earth bound Autobots have no idea what has been going on with Cybertron up to that point, no idea what they were getting into. Mirage blindly and selfishly getting his comrades captured is extremely out of order. They don't know if Ultra Magnus can be trusted, Autobot or not, especially given the hostile actions being taken toward them.

onslaught86 wrote:I can, however, fully appreciate that Sparky wishes there was more exposition on exactly why the Matrix is of importance here beyond "It's the Matrix", but any link between Prime's death and Megatron using the Matrix's power would bring up the question of why Prime's death is not a priority for the Decepticons.

Exactly. They need to explain more and if the whole plan with the Matrix depends on Optimus' eventual death, then why send him somewhere else to presumably be killed by Insecticons when all they need to do is just finish the job?

You know, of all the stories to bring to mind, this reminds me of G2. Another case of Megatron taking the Matrix, although in that case he had good reason to as it gave life to his new soldiers. With any luck, the final issue of the 12-issue story arc will give the Matrix a bit more purpose. Not too concerned if it doesn't, though, as the object still carries weight as a symbol. If Megatron just took it to give Prime and the Autobots the finger, then so be it.

And again, the loss of the Matrix only really comes into play if Prime dies. Just the news of loosing it isn't an indication of "enormous value" for the Matrix itself, rather, they're more concerned what would happen if Prime died while they didn't have it to pass to another potential Autobot leader. But as long as they've got Optimus alive and a shred of hope for his recovery....

Uh, you yourself have said that knowing they lost the Matrix would be a blow for the Autobots. At that point, morale is pretty much all they have, and it is appallingly low, as evidenced by the sniping the 'bots are doing. Prowl, Jazz and Kup clearly are operating under the assumption that the perception of having/not having the Matrix is important, hence its value. (It is *useful* politically, and the truth would be very costly for the Autobots in terms of morale.)

"Not that out of order"? The Earth bound Autobots have no idea what has been going on with Cybertron up to that point, no idea what they were getting into. Mirage blindly and selfishly getting his comrades captured is extremely out of order. They don't know if Ultra Magnus can be trusted, Autobot or not, especially given the hostile actions being taken toward them.

On the other hand, Shockwave correctly assesses that the Autobots are likely going to be trouble-makers. Shockwave was sincere in wanting to end the war, if only so everybody could fight Unicron. (He was pretty worried about that.) And, hey, would it really be that bad living under Shockwave? Really, so what if he is a Decepticon. The trains ran on time and there were energon spas. Look at Skywarp and Thundercracker. They had the right idea. Enjoy the peace while it lasts, and (when the time comes) pick a side.

Can you blame Mirage for wanting a piece of that pie, rather than going along to get along with a bunch of guys who would just perpetuate the war Mirage wanted no part of the in the first place?

It is not like there were not Autobots working with/for Shockwave.

As for the Matrix.....

But, there are character actions and dialogue, clearly on the page, that illustrate the Matrix as important to both factions. It is not a question of assumingthe reader recognizes the Matrix is important. McCarthy has the characters talking and acting like it is. What level of explication is needed here?

Is the universe exploding again? No. That only happens on alternate Thursdays when Furman is in town. But, the Autobots are in pretty dire straights, and keeping up some kind of morale is important.

The Matrix also holds some kind of value for the Decepticons.

I can see Megatron taking the Matrix just as a way to stick it to the Autobots, even if he only plans to use it as a paper-weight. At the very least, taking that Matrix gives one bragging rights. And, if there are other uses to the Matrix, Megatron gets access to those as well. Remember, he did rummage around for the Matrix in "Devastation". And, "Origins" was early enough in his career that the idea of taking the Matrix, let along announcing it to the world, may not have occured to him when he was still fighting for "workers rights".

At that point, the Decepticons were just a rag-tag bunch of thugs and malcontents, not an army. They were an insurrection, (dangerous yes), but not an army. Bandits and such can be dangerous. They can fight armies and win. (History provides ample precedent for this.) But, conflict with them is not necessarily a war.

I'd rather like to see an interaction between Mirage, Smokescreen, and Hubcap, as some of the less trustworthy Autobots.

I suppose there could be some irony there. The 3 guys you mention are all different enough that they would likely not see the similarities between each other.

(I am using "favorability in the electoral sense.)

Mirage is seen as not being loyal enough to the cause. Most Autobots wth an opinion of him likely see him as low on favorabiiity. Mirage cannot run for political office after the war. Heck, he probably needs to make sure there are not certain parties behind him when he stands near a ledge.

Smokescreen on the other hand is generally seen favorably by his comrades. Yes, you and I know he is a bit sleezy. Yes, some Autobots know he is a bit sleezy. But, many of them would likely look at him and say, "Well, that is our Smokescreen, always up to something." Even the guys who know Smokescreen narcs to the boss about what they are saying in the trenches know that Smokey is loyal. He could totally run for office and win.

Hubcap is just a twerp. He is either seen as a lazy hack or a confidence man. Nobody is likely to trush him with much. And, they are unlikely to have lunch with him as he is likely to bum money off them for the check. But, they would likely talk with him while on break, which they would not do with Mirage. And, some guys might cast a vote for Hubcap, if they thought he would be in their pocket. Nobody would care if somebody dropped Hubcap down a pit, but nobody would likely bother to do so themselves, unless he owed them money.


Dom
-never wants to see Grant Morrison writing "Transformers".

Dominic wrote:-never wants to see Grant Morrison writing "Transformers".

"Why do you call yourselves 'Transformers?'"
"Because! We TRANSFORM!"