TF Views

SynjoDeonecros wrote:Let's take a look at the evidence: None of the Maximals knew what the Golden Disk was, outside of being a relic (and I have to say bull on Optimus knowing it lead to a cache of Energon, because if I remember correctly, he came to that conclusion AFTER they had crashed and discovered what Megatron could do with the Energon on the planet).

So what if he said it after the crash? Optimus was quite clear that the disk was so carefully guarded because it gave the location of a major energon source and was the reason Megatron took it.

Starscream's file was sealed, with the implication that more than that one file was shut down.

Optimus only says the files on Starscream were classified by the Maximal Elders. There is no indication given about anything else having been classified.

Earth was declared off-limits with NO EXPLANATION GIVEN (to hell with your speculation, and mine, the simple fact is that there was no reason given for why it was outlawed to go there).

Which doesn't really tell us anything save for the Transformers aren't allowed to go there anymore.

And, most telling of all, until Ravage showed up, NO MENTION OF ANY AUTOBOT OR DECEPTICON SURVIVORS WAS MADE.

It wasn't exactly an important issue until Ravage showed up. But when Ravage showed up, Optimus did say a few Decepticons survivors had been granted amnesty and most of them had retired.

And, again, ONLY THE MAXIMALS SEEM TO HAVE THIS RESTRICTION LAID OUT AGAINST THEM. Who did all the research about Starscream and gave most of the exposition about the Ark and the Great War? The Predacons. Who knew what the Golden Disk was all about? THE PREDACONS. Almost every single bit of exposition about their past continuity has ALWAYS come from the Predacons, further emphasizing that the Maximals COULD NOT learn anything about their own past.

You're ignoring BWprowl's earlier point that the exposition Blackarachnia gives about the Ark was to a Maximal whose datatracks were lost. The rest of the Maximals on the other hand knew exactly what the Ark was when they saw it. And it was Optimus that gave the exposition on the Nemesis. The Golden Disk, again, the secret message may have only been discovered after Megatron stole it. Really, I don't see any reason the Maximals didn't know their own history. The only thing we know they didn't actually know was the story behind Starscream.

Y'know, it'd be pretty stupid of the Elders to tell everyone why they were declaring Earth off-limits, considering...the reason why.

"Hey, everyone! We're declaring the Terran system off limits!"
"Why?"
"Because we don't want any ambitious Predacons going back in time and messing with the Ark to make it so the Decepticons win! Uh...not to give anyone ideas, or anything..."

Y'know, it's actually pretty impressive that the Maximals and Predacons DID know anything about the Ark and what went on on Earth, since it's a comparitive footnote in the Great War. Seriously, a handful of Autobots and Decepticons were on Earth for, what, a coupla decades? Compared with the OVER FOUR MILLION YEARS that the war lasted?

Sparky Prime wrote:

SynjoDeonecros wrote:Let's take a look at the evidence: None of the Maximals knew what the Golden Disk was, outside of being a relic (and I have to say bull on Optimus knowing it lead to a cache of Energon, because if I remember correctly, he came to that conclusion AFTER they had crashed and discovered what Megatron could do with the Energon on the planet).

So what if he said it after the crash? Optimus was quite clear that the disk was so carefully guarded because it gave the location of a major energon source and was the reason Megatron took it.

Starscream's file was sealed, with the implication that more than that one file was shut down.

Optimus only says the files on Starscream were classified by the Maximal Elders. There is no indication given about anything else having been classified.

Earth was declared off-limits with NO EXPLANATION GIVEN (to hell with your speculation, and mine, the simple fact is that there was no reason given for why it was outlawed to go there).

Which doesn't really tell us anything save for the Transformers aren't allowed to go there anymore.

And, most telling of all, until Ravage showed up, NO MENTION OF ANY AUTOBOT OR DECEPTICON SURVIVORS WAS MADE.

It wasn't exactly an important issue until Ravage showed up. But when Ravage showed up, Optimus did say a few Decepticons survivors had been granted amnesty and most of them had retired.

And, again, ONLY THE MAXIMALS SEEM TO HAVE THIS RESTRICTION LAID OUT AGAINST THEM. Who did all the research about Starscream and gave most of the exposition about the Ark and the Great War? The Predacons. Who knew what the Golden Disk was all about? THE PREDACONS. Almost every single bit of exposition about their past continuity has ALWAYS come from the Predacons, further emphasizing that the Maximals COULD NOT learn anything about their own past.

You're ignoring BWprowl's earlier point that the exposition Blackarachnia gives about the Ark was to a Maximal whose datatracks were lost. The rest of the Maximals on the other hand knew exactly what the Ark was when they saw it. And it was Optimus that gave the exposition on the Nemesis. The Golden Disk, again, the secret message may have only been discovered after Megatron stole it. Really, I don't see any reason the Maximals didn't know their own history. The only thing we know they didn't actually know was the story behind Starscream.

Silverbolt had a FULL SEASON to learn about his people's history, so why didn't he? And don't you DARE tell me it's because "he didn't want to" or "he was too busy to", because there were CLEARLY PLENTY of opportunities for him to learn, and you'd think that someone like Siverbolt who had known nothing about his life or his people before he came into being would be asking several questions about where he came from and why he's fighting.

As for the whole banning access to Earth thing, just the act itself, combined with the knowledge that they've sealed up at least one file concerning the Great War, indicates that they're shady enough to try and block ALL knowledge of the Great War AND Earth, if need be (and, as I've said before, every Wiki I've researched this seems to agree that's the impression given). Besides, even if we accept the theory that they wanted to stop people from changing history, banning travel to Earth to prevent thugs from time-traveling there and changing history would mean nothing if you prevent them access to the Great War files; if they have access to those files, then they'll have a reason to go want to go back in time and change the past, and there's no way the government can stop them from doing so, short of blasting them out of the sky, and - since it didn't seem like Earth was being patrolled at all - all you needed to cockblock them was to make it seem like you were going to do something else, then slip past their net of influence and head over there. Suppressing knowledge of the Great War prevents any potential time-meddlers from getting the idea to go back in time, and lets you better justify banning access to Earth.

When did Optimus say that? I don't ever recall him saying that was the reason it was so heavily guarded, just that it was a prized relic. And, as for Megatron, he knew before he left the true nature of the Disk, and at least Dinobot knew about it before the crash, so that seems to indicate that yes, the Predacons DID know more about the disk than the Maximals did, further proving that the Maximals are keeping information from the wrong side.

Also, according to the comics, it doesn't look like the survivors were even TOUCHED by the Maximal OR Predacon governments, so retirement is a lame excuse for why they're not available to give any sermons. Seriously, I used to live with a retired war vet, and I can tell you, him being retired means NOTING to the fact that I can use him as a source of information about the war he was in.

No, I'm sorry, but I'm still not convinced. It seems like you guys are focusing more on the "WOULD they" aspect instead of the "COULD they" aspect; whether they would WANT to learn more is inconsequential to this argument; whether they had the CAPACITY and the ABILITY to learn more is the key here, and the impression given by both the show and the comic points to "NO, they did NOT have the ability to", up until the point where they showed that yes, they DID.

I'm sorry, but I'm still not convinced, and frankly, nothing I've researched seems to conform to your arguments.

BWprowl wrote:Y'know, it'd be pretty stupid of the Elders to tell everyone why they were declaring Earth off-limits, considering...the reason why.

"Hey, everyone! We're declaring the Terran system off limits!"
"Why?"
"Because we don't want any ambitious Predacons going back in time and messing with the Ark to make it so the Decepticons win! Uh...not to give anyone ideas, or anything..."

Y'know, it's actually pretty impressive that the Maximals and Predacons DID know anything about the Ark and what went on on Earth, since it's a comparitive footnote in the Great War. Seriously, a handful of Autobots and Decepticons were on Earth for, what, a coupla decades? Compared with the OVER FOUR MILLION YEARS that the war lasted?

They wouldn't have to give the real reason why they're banning it; they could feed some line of bull that would placate them. But, again, as I said, that would mean nothing if they didn't also control the information about Earth and the Great War, as well, since without the latter, there would be no reason for either Maximal or Predacon to investigate the former.

The thing about Earth, though, is that it was a key part in the end of the Great War; Waterloo was a footnote in Napoleon's military history, but it's significant enough for people to know about it, because that's where he was finally defeated. True, we're never given the specifics about HOW the Great War ended, but you can bet that Earth had something major to do with it. So much of the big finale for the Great War was tied to Earth - contact with Humans (from which the Voyager Golden Disk and the message therein would have never been made), the Unicron incident, the Swarm incident (if we believe G2 was included in their background, which - as I said before - there is no evidence to suggest it is), the creation of several subfactions of Transformers (including the Predacons, from which the Predacon faction in BW were made), etc. It would make sense that it would be memorable to the general BW public...and would be prudent of the Maximal Elders to seal up all records of, if we accept the "prevent time traveling meddlers" theory behind the ban of Earth.

SynjoDeonecros wrote:Silverbolt had a FULL SEASON to learn about his people's history, so why didn't he? And don't you DARE tell me it's because "he didn't want to" or "he was too busy to", because there were CLEARLY PLENTY of opportunities for him to learn, and you'd think that someone like Siverbolt who had known nothing about his life or his people before he came into being would be asking several questions about where he came from and why he's fighting.

We're talking many million years worth of history here... That's not exactly something you can learn all about overnight. Not to mention being a bit preoccupied with the current and ongoing Beast Wars and eventually his secret relationship with Blackarachnia. It's understandable Silverbolt wouldn't be all that knowledgeable on Cybertronian history.

As for the whole banning access to Earth thing, just the act itself, combined with the knowledge that they've sealed up at least one file concerning the Great War, indicates that they're shady enough to try and block ALL knowledge of the Great War AND Earth, if need be (and, as I've said before, every Wiki I've researched this seems to agree that's the impression given).

Where would that information from the Wiki's you're seeing be exactly? The only information I'm seeing on the TF wiki about Earth simply only says: "It's unknown precisely when and why this ban was initiated". I don't see anything to give the impression the Maximal Elders made Earth off limits to cover up information on the Great War.

Really, I don't see it as being very plausible that the Maximal Elders would try to block all knowledge of the Great War. It's just too large of a portion of Cybertonian history to block out and we know there are some survivors that would remember it. Again, the only thing we're told that is blocked is information on Starscream which appears to only be because of the connection to the Protoform X project which we know the Maximal Elders want to keep a secret given the failure and how dangerous X turned out to be. Earth on the other hand could be off limits for any number of reasons.

When did Optimus say that? I don't ever recall him saying that was the reason it was so heavily guarded, just that it was a prized relic. And, as for Megatron, he knew before he left the true nature of the Disk, and at least Dinobot knew about it before the crash, so that seems to indicate that yes, the Predacons DID know more about the disk than the Maximals did, further proving that the Maximals are keeping information from the wrong side.

It was just as the Maximals were starting to clean up their ship after the crash and looking around the immediate area... Rattrap was complaining about the hassle they've gone through for some disk and Optimus explains: "It was Cybertrons most carefully guarded relic Rattrap. It gave the location of a major energon source. That's why Megatron stole it."

And again, I'm saying the secret message from Megatron may not have been discovered hidden on the disk until after the Predacons stole it. After all, they would have to read the disk before they left in order to find the location of the energon anyway and could have found the message then. Meaning, the Maximals may not have known about Megatron's secret message, but simply that it had the location of a major energon deposit was enough reason for them to keep it locked away.

Also, according to the comics, it doesn't look like the survivors were even TOUCHED by the Maximal OR Predacon governments, so retirement is a lame excuse for why they're not available to give any sermons. Seriously, I used to live with a retired war vet, and I can tell you, him being retired means NOTING to the fact that I can use him as a source of information about the war he was in.

I never said them being retired meant they couldn't share their stories... Being retired means they just stopped fighting.

I'm sorry, but I'm still not convinced, and frankly, nothing I've researched seems to conform to your arguments.

Personally, I'm finding your arguments to be stretching things. For example, you seem to be relying heavily on the fact the Maximal Elders classified information on Starscream to explain other events where there really is no clear evidence to support those claims.

No, that's not the impression I got, or the impression that the writers gave in the show, and NOTHING I have seen or researched seems to support what you guys are saying, at all. Check the Wiki entries for the Maximal Elders; it says quite clearly that they kept as much info as they could on both the Great War AND Earth locked up, so I am NOT the only one who got that impression from the show.

You're making excuses for why Silverbolt WOULDN'T WANT to learn, instead of whether or not he COULD learn it, and as I said before, WOULD WANT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE, COULD IS. We don't know how long the Beast Wars was, but the impression was that it was very long, and they had quite a bit of downtime between battles that Silverbolt could use to learn about his heritage. Great War 101, if you will. The point is, HE HAD THE TIME AND THE OPPORTUNITIES TO LEARN, which is the IMPORTANT thing here.

And you just made my point for me; the impression given by the writers is that they DID NOT know about their history, because they COULD NOT; they didn't have access to the records, they didn't have access to any survivors or eyewitnesses, EVERYTHING they know is anecdotal and textbook stuff, stuff that is nebulous at best. That IS the impression given, but now that we know there ARE survivors, that impression is shattered, and we know that they COULD learn more accurate details about everything, if they wanted to.

So again, I'm not convinced; all your arguments are focused on "Will they" instead of "Can they", the want to learn instead of the capability and opportunity to learn. I'm focusing on the latter, because that IS pertinent to this argument, and you guys are focusing on the former, which ISN'T. So sorry, my stance stays firm.

*sigh* You guys are STILL harping on the reasons why they WOULD NOT WANT to research, instead of why they COULDN'T research? What is your fixation on it? What, do you not recognize the difference?

"Transformers", in all its forms, is soft sci-fi. That means the aliens will, for the most part, think like people.

Yes, there is a difference between ability and inclination. But, in practical terms, both are needed to do something.

I would argue that inclination is more important. If one is inclined, they might be able, and eager, to increase their ability to do something, If the inclination is not there, most people will not bother to do something, let along actively boost their inclination.

And, as stated in a few posts above, the Maximals clearly had some information, and were not treating it (aside from the Starscream stuff) as big shocking secrets.


Dom
-passes up free information all the time.

Dominic wrote:

*sigh* You guys are STILL harping on the reasons why they WOULD NOT WANT to research, instead of why they COULDN'T research? What is your fixation on it? What, do you not recognize the difference?

"Transformers", in all its forms, is soft sci-fi. That means the aliens will, for the most part, think like people.

Yes, there is a difference between ability and inclination. But, in practical terms, both are needed to do something.

I would argue that inclination is more important. If one is inclined, they might be able, and eager, to increase their ability to do something, If the inclination is not there, most people will not bother to do something, let along actively boost their inclination.

And, as stated in a few posts above, the Maximals clearly had some information, and were not treating it (aside from the Starscream stuff) as big shocking secrets.


Dom
-passes up free information all the time.

But the indication from the series was clearly that they didn't have the ability to learn, even if they DID have the inclination to, and that what they had already known was either generic textbook stuff or rumors and hearsay, which is why I went off on this rant; once they showed that there WERE places and people they could go to get more accurate information, if they so wished, the image that they were stymied from doing so before was proven false, and all the mysticism and vagueness that they tried to wrap the past up in seemed unnecessary and arbitrary, as a result. As I said before, just because the survivors are retired doesn't mean they CAN'T be tracked down for information, despite what everyone here is saying.

SynjoDeonecros wrote:Check the Wiki entries for the Maximal Elders; it says quite clearly that they kept as much info as they could on both the Great War AND Earth locked up, so I am NOT the only one who got that impression from the show.

Well I see that to be somewhat in error given it's a bit of an overstatement seeing that we really don't know how much information the Maximal Elders withholds on the Great War. The show only makes reference to the files on Starscream being classified.

You're making excuses for why Silverbolt WOULDN'T WANT to learn, instead of whether or not he COULD learn it, and as I said before, WOULD WANT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE, COULD IS.

I'm not saying he wouldn't want to learn, I'm saying he's a little busy with everything going on (what with the war and a girl friend) and you're expecting him to learn a LOT of information in a very short amount of time. Clearly he had learned something about the Ark by the point they found it, although obviously not enough given he was under the impression it was a legend.

And you just made my point for me; the impression given by the writers is that they DID NOT know about their history, because they COULD NOT; they didn't have access to the records, they didn't have access to any survivors or eyewitnesses, EVERYTHING they know is anecdotal and textbook stuff, stuff that is nebulous at best. That IS the impression given, but now that we know there ARE survivors, that impression is shattered, and we know that they COULD learn more accurate details about everything, if they wanted to.

See, I never said they couldn't learn about their own history. Rather, I've been saying they do know about their own history given the evidence in the show, with the exception of the files on Starscream being the only thing we actually know has been classified by the Maximal Elders or those who have had their datatracks lost and need more time to (re?)learn.

Hey you know what's a good show?

Beast Machines.