Shattered Glass review

[Sparky Prime]

Except we've never actually seen what life is like for the Predacons on Cybertron. All we have to go by is what's been said by some of the characters on the show, and the only characters that have made any mention of what life might be like on Cybertron in that time period have been Predacons.

My point is that it's clear the Predacons have a great deal of freedom from what indications we have in the show. They still have their own government. They still have autonomy. Really the only restrictions the Maximals appear to have placed on the Predacons from what we get from the show is simply measures to prevent the Predacons from restarting the war. Megatron claims the Maximals have made them slaves, but that certainly isn't the situation the Predacons are in. Megatron's (and the rest of the Predacons for that matter,) true ambition is to be the ruler, not the ruled. Other than that, what do we see that the Predacons actually have to complain about? Mistrust between the two factions? But again, that's because given the opportunity the Predacons would restart the war.

[Dominic]

Hmm, I fear they'd be too similar to Defensor and Superion - Defensor being the big scary robot that wants to help but scares humans away, and Superion being focused entirely on destroying Decepticons.

I'd find a gestalt rather interesting if the standard formula were inverted - the individual members were slow and stupid, and the combined form agile and intelligent - one mind split into several as opposed to several merged into one.

How would inverted Combaticons be like the Protectabots? Look at "hooks" I tossed out on these guys. There is no similarity to Defensor or Superion.



As for "Beast Wars", Sparky has a point. There is nothing on the show to say that it is *that* bad being a Predacon. I would imagine that being a Predacon on post-Pax Cybertron would be kind of like being an American after the British were driven out of here. For most people, (contrary to popular modern belief), there was little change unless they were politically active. It would have been awful to be a Tory. But, for most people, unless there was a food shortage, the change would have made little operational difference.

The Maximals might whack the occasional dissident, but so what?

Look at another real-life example. Is the average Russian or Englishman really harmed by the Litvenenko killing? No. (Granted, the jury is still out on the long term effects of ambient polonium radiation, but you get the idea.) Most Predacons would probably get jobs and gripe a bit. But, as long as they had enough money to hit the beer-halls on the way home, they would be fundamentally happy enough.

Humans were innocent bystanders that were forced into the Transformers war when they came to their planet. It doesn't matter if Megatron saw them as 'evil co-conspirators', wiping out all the humans just so the Predacons can rule in place of the Maximals does not justify the act of genocide. He wasn't acting in self-defense, he was only doing it to further is own cause, to conquer and rule. Not to mention going back in time to destroy them when they are defenseless is sort of further insult to injury.

This is tricky. From a rationalist stand-point, the genocide would be justified. It would be, objectivley, an act of self-defense. The fact that TFs would likely see humans as less advanced is also important. As a human, I care little for bugs, or even troublesome mammals. (The day coyotes show up in this area is the day I take up arms against nature.) If two groups or species have a conflict, then odds are one will attack the other. This is a sensible thing to do. In such conflicts, innocent bystanders are unfortunate, but a species fighting for its survival, or even basic interests, cannot be expected to limit itself for "the other".

The problem is that Megatron's method, retro-active extincion through time-travel, would be incredibly destructive and wreckless. (Megatron himself might not have survived the time-changes, depending on what changed as a result of his actions.)


Dom
-notes Predaking is pretty close to what O86 wants from a merge team.

[Sparky Prime]

This is tricky. From a rationalist stand-point, the genocide would be justified. It would be, objectivley, an act of self-defense. The fact that TFs would likely see humans as less advanced is also important. As a human, I care little for bugs, or even troublesome mammals. (The day coyotes show up in this area is the day I take up arms against nature.) If two groups or species have a conflict, then odds are one will attack the other. This is a sensible thing to do. In such conflicts, innocent bystanders are unfortunate, but a species fighting for its survival, or even basic interests, cannot be expected to limit itself for "the other".

How can something be self-defense when the event has already passed a loooong time ago? Even with time travel, it ceases to be self-defense after the war ended, or when ever humanity cut their ties with Transformers. Going back in time after the fact with the intent of changing history, to wipe out humanity centuries before they even meet the Autobots and Decepticons is not self-defense. I think a retroactive preemptive strike would be a more fitting way to describe it but even that I'm not sure really covers it. Not to mention, it wasn't even all of humanity that was helping the Autobots. Just a few individuals. That can't possibly justify the genocide of an entire species for the actions of only a few. Honestly, I can't see any possible justification for genocide in this situation (or most situations for the matter), from any stand-point.

The Predacons and Decepticons might look down on humanity as a lesser lifeform, but they both also under-estimated them. It's clear that they don't give enough credit to them.

[Dominic]

I was talking about self-defence as a matter of general principle. A pre-emptive strike would work along the same lines. If two groups have a conflict that cannot be resolved, odds are they will fight. The Decepticons/Predacons have a rational basis for wanting to remove humans.


I do agree that they underestimate humans, as they are consistently suprised and thwarted by them. But, those little suprises are exactly the justification I was talking about. Humans have a track record of being dangerous to Decepticon interests.

Dom

[Sparky Prime]

I was talking about self-defence as a matter of general principle. A pre-emptive strike would work along the same lines. If two groups have a conflict that cannot be resolved, odds are they will fight. The Decepticons/Predacons have a rational basis for wanting to remove humans.

The war is over though. With the conflict done, it's no longer self-defense, nor would it actually be a preemptive strike. Time travel to change history is something else altogether. Sure, with out humans the Decepticons may have defeated the Autobots, but that still doesn't justify genocide.

I do agree that they underestimate humans, as they are consistently suprised and thwarted by them. But, those little suprises are exactly the justification I was talking about. Humans have a track record of being dangerous to Decepticon interests.

Underestimating them doesn't mean they should be eliminated though. Just plan ahead and learn from previous mistakes... Which apparently the Decepticons/Predacons never did.

[Dominic]

When I said I was talking about a "general principle", I meant " beyond Transformers". And, in that scenario, if one is trying to win, or avert, a ruinous conflict, any and all options should be on the table.

Pre-emptive strikes, and punitive raids are also common moves. Re-igniting a lost conflict, for the purposes of recouping losses makes perfect sense.


The fact that, in the context of "Transformers", humans have a track record of ruining Decepticon plans only further justifies wiping them out.

What makes more sense"
-"Wow! Those humans are clever, and dangerous to boot. We should be more careful in the future, and always respect them and their right to life."
-"Wow! Those humans are dangerous. They always seem to know how to hit us and hurt us. Maybe we should make sure it never, ever, ever happens again.


Dom
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[Sparky Prime]

When I said I was talking about a "general principle", I meant " beyond Transformers". And, in that scenario, if one is trying to win, or avert, a ruinous conflict, any and all options should be on the table.

Pre-emptive strikes, and punitive raids are also common moves. Re-igniting a lost conflict, for the purposes of recouping losses makes perfect sense.

In the context we're talking about, going back in time to change history is beyond recouping losses and re-igniting a past conflict. That's making the losses never happen in the first place and who knows what the ultimate consequences of doing so would be. And I'd disagree that any and all options should be on the table. There is a line between what 'needs to be done' and what is just pure evil.

The fact that, in the context of "Transformers", humans have a track record of ruining Decepticon plans only further justifies wiping them out.

What makes more sense"
-"Wow! Those humans are clever, and dangerous to boot. We should be more careful in the future, and always respect them and their right to life."
-"Wow! Those humans are dangerous. They always seem to know how to hit us and hurt us. Maybe we should make sure it never, ever, ever happens again.

Yes it makes sense to attack your enemies (and their allies), but that still doesn't justify genocide. You don't have to wipe an enemy completely out to eliminate a threat they possess.

[Onslaught Six]

This topic makes my brain asplode.

[Dominic]

But, if you continually under-estimate a foe, and they keep biting you on the tuchus, then at some point you have decide you are going to play it safe and remove any and all prospect of them attacking you again. If you have a hard time estimating their skill/threat-level, then you need to be especially sure.

Dom

[Sparky Prime]

But, if you continually under-estimate a foe, and they keep biting you on the tuchus, then at some point you have decide you are going to play it safe and remove any and all prospect of them attacking you again. If you have a hard time estimating their skill/threat-level, then you need to be especially sure.

As you pointed out before, the Decepticons/Predacons saw humans like we might see bugs, as lesser beings supposedly incapable of being a real threat. That's why they were constantly under-estimating the humans. Their problem was that they didn't adapt their tactics. They continued to view humans as weak. Perhaps if they ever actually had considered humans to be a real threat, it would have been a completely different story. And they certainly wouldn't have needed to completely eliminate all humans to eliminate any threat we possess.