TF Views

Ursus mellifera wrote:I truly think that he's being honest. In the very first issue he tells Orion that he doesn't care if the upcoming Ascenticon rally incites violence. Megatron is not interested in playing nice; he is interested in cultural and social change, and he is not above inciting riots to facilitate that change, but that is a far cry from the domestic terrorism that seems to be The Rise's M.O. He's definitely not a good guy from any non-Cybertronian mindset; he's a bit of an imperialist, and he's a bit of a brute, but he's a natural response to the stifling conformity that the Autobots seem to be fostering (hence my continued worry in regards to a Hitler analog).

Yup. After the first issue came out, this was something Dom and I somewhat debated, with Dom saying he believed Megatron was embracing the violence. The fact Megatron says he'll publicly condemn the violence in this issue just proves what I'd been saying.

Sparky Prime wrote:After the first issue came out, this was something Dom and I somewhat debated, with Dom saying he believed Megatron was embracing the violence. The fact Megatron says he'll publicly condemn the violence in this issue just proves what I'd been saying.

Yeah, it's pretty clear to me that he's not embracing the violence. When it comes to the violence of his own followers he seems pretty indifferent, and when it comes to the clear terrorism of The Rise he's openly disdainful.

If I can say anything about this continuity's Megatron it's that he definitively doesn't give two shits about what anyone thinks of him. I think that almost all of the previous versions of Megatron being so inherently manipulative and Machiavellian makes it hard to view this version of the character as a separate individual without a conscious effort. Old Megatron would have said whatever he needed to say to get Orion where he wanted him. This Megatron has already proven that he won't lie to Orion just to maintain pleasantries, or even civility(ie: every conversation they've had so far). If he condoned the actions of The Rise he wouldn't lie, he would just tell Orion to suck it.

One of the biggest questions about the current series is how much the previous IDW Megatron influences the current Megatron.

The former makes it a decision based on a known threat, but the latter makes it a decision based on paranoid speculation that seems to be based solely on the Reversionists not being Autobots, and therefore scary.

We do not know enough about the various factions to be sure if "not Autobot" is enough to make a group automatically suspect. Reversionists could be a nominally peaceful group (like the Greens) or openly willing to use violence (such as the Environmental Liberation Front).

I am inclined to think that the Autobot concerns are valid, based on actual precedent for this sort of thing.

Example: Catalonia. Catalonia wants to break away from Spain for wholly economic reasons, specifically that Catalonia is tired of carrying the dead weight that most of Spain actually is. They are receiving support from Spain's socialist party. This is counter-intuitive, as a socialist party would be more likely to try to keep an economically viable region in an otherwise failed state. But, the two groups are making common cause against another, right-wing, faction.

In this light, I can comprehend a "return to Primus" group making common cause with expansionists (such as the Ascenticons, or even the Rise). Even assuming that the Autobots are a tyrannical majority, they would have more than good enough reason to be concerned about two minority factions making common cause against them.

. After the first issue came out, this was something Dom and I somewhat debated, with Dom saying he believed Megatron was embracing the violence. The fact Megatron says he'll publicly condemn the violence in this issue just proves what I'd been saying.

Part of my argument was disputing your reasoning that Megatron was exculpated by the fact that the crowds at his rallies were no established characters.

And, there is a difference between playing to a (pre-existing) violent base and fomenting (new) violence. My guess is that Megatron is willing to take support (votes, or political agitation) from the Rise. And, at some point, he will either lose control of them, or be forced to take ownership.

I am more inclined to give Megatron the benefit of the doubt at this point though.


The fact that Ruckley is avoiding getting back to the assassination attempt in issue 2 is a clear indication that there is a twist on this front.

Case 1:
Megatron engineered the incident, in an attempt to rally support and create the impression of state (Autobot) terror against the Ascenticons. (Unlikely, and boring.)

Case 2:
The Rise is attempting to foment violence among the Megatron's Ascenticons by making it appear that the state has attempted to assassinate Megatron. Megatron and the Ascenticons believe the ruse. (Likely, and intriguing.)

Case 3:
An arm of the state (though not one of Prime's group) attempted to assassinate Megatron, creating a legitimate reason for Megatron to co-opt the Rise (and possibly other factions). (Unlikely, but intriguing.)

Dominic wrote:We do not know enough about the various factions to be sure if "not Autobot" is enough to make a group automatically suspect. Reversionists could be a nominally peaceful group (like the Greens) or openly willing to use violence (such as the Environmental Liberation Front)... I can comprehend a "return to Primus" group making common cause with expansionists (such as the Ascenticons, or even the Rise). Even assuming that the Autobots are a tyrannical majority, they would have more than good enough reason to be concerned about two minority factions making common cause against them.

This is a good point I didn't consider. I was basing my opinions of the Reversionists solely on what we've seen so far.

Dominic wrote:Part of my argument was disputing your reasoning that Megatron was exculpated by the fact that the crowds at his rallies were no established characters.

And, there is a difference between playing to a (pre-existing) violent base and fomenting (new) violence. My guess is that Megatron is willing to take support (votes, or political agitation) from the Rise. And, at some point, he will either lose control of them, or be forced to take ownership.

Megatron is definitely not off the hook for the violence of his followers because he has not, in any way that we've seen, condemn it. Being a leader, and being indifferent to the negative actions of your supporters makes you culpable, at least partially. The violence isn't necessarily Megatron's fault, but it is partially his responsibility.

I'm torn on Megatron taking support from The Rise and then losing control over them. It seems a bit too convenient to me, but that could also be because that's basically what's happened with the Republicans. I'm hoping that, if this is where the book goes, that there's a clear, major catalyst that causes Megatron to be dumb enough to accept them in the first place.

Dominic wrote: The Rise is attempting to foment violence among the Megatron's Ascenticons by making it appear that the state has attempted to assassinate Megatron. Megatron and the Ascenticons believe the ruse. (Likely, and intriguing.)

Out of those three scenarios I really hope it's this. I love the idea of Megatron basically being manipulated into becoming Cybertron's greatest monster, as opposed to making that choice from the beginning.

Being a leader, and being indifferent to the negative actions of your supporters makes you at culpable, at least partially. The violence isn't necessarily Megatron's fault, but it is partially his responsibility.

Define "leader".

Senator Warren (D, MA) has openly associated with Occupy, going so far as to take credit for their existence. Elements from Occupy have since evolved in to Anti-Fa or Anonymous. Is she responsible for them? Could she have reasonably predicted this situation?

Similarly, the Tea Party is not the Alt Right. But, the Alt-Right arguably grew out of the Tea Party. Paul Ryan was so discomfited by this that he left politics, despite previous enjoying support from the Tea Party.

The implication from the first issue is that Megatron accepts support from the Rise, but is not a member of that faction.

Dominic wrote:Define "leader"... The implication from the first issue is that Megatron accepts support from the Rise, but is not a member of that faction.

"Leader: noun: the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country."

I think Megatron accepts support from The Rise in the manner that he doesn't condone or support their actions, but he's happy that those actions work indirectly for him instead of against him. The Tea Party seems a pretty appropriate example since I think that the more impatient Ascentionists will end up moving towards the Rise, and that might be what drags Megatron close to them as more and more Ascenticons are lured over.

Occupy or Sanders' base have worked along similar dynamics.

And, similar to Megatron's possible condemnation of the violence, the Kock Brothers' "Americans for Prosperity" are specifically for open borders, while sharing minimal government views with the Tea Party, as well as anti-Communist views with the Alt-Right.


Megatron having ideological over-lap with a violent faction is different from leading it. The question is what will push Megatron towards violence.

Dominic wrote:Megatron having ideological over-lap with a violent faction is different from leading it. The question is what will push Megatron towards violence.

So, you're suggesting that Megatron won't ever lead the Rise so much as just become like it through other means? That would be interesting. I'm very curious as to what pushes him over the edge. We all know something's going to do it.

Dominic wrote:Part of my argument was disputing your reasoning that Megatron was exculpated by the fact that the crowds at his rallies were no established characters.

And, there is a difference between playing to a (pre-existing) violent base and fomenting (new) violence. My guess is that Megatron is willing to take support (votes, or political agitation) from the Rise. And, at some point, he will either lose control of them, or be forced to take ownership.

I am more inclined to give Megatron the benefit of the doubt at this point though.

I really don't follow your reasoning. The fact that the crowds aren't established characters only suggests to me even more that Megatron wouldn't embrace violence. It'd be a very different story if they were recognizable characters. The fact they aren't, that these are just ordinary citizens from all over Cybertron, only supported my argument. And there's nothing in the story that suggests Megatron is willing to take support from the Rise. Again, this most recent issue makes it clear he condemns their methods. What in the story thus far makes you think he's willing to take support from them? I don't doubt something will eventually happen to change Megatron's outlook (or otherwise reveal he was secretly part of The Rise all along), but as far as he's been presented so far, he is very much separate from The Rise, and publicly doesn't agree with their methods.

So, you're suggesting that Megatron won't ever lead the Rise so much as just become like it through other means? That would be interesting. I'm very curious as to what pushes him over the edge. We all know something's going to do it.

Megatron and the Rise could end up co-opting each other. But, ultimately, we need to wait and see.

really don't follow your reasoning. The fact that the crowds aren't established characters only suggests to me even more that Megatron wouldn't embrace violence.

You may be reading too much in to the crowd scenes. IDW does not pitch to GeeWunners the way that DreamWave did (with "the War Within").

Again, this most recent issue makes it clear he condemns their methods. What in the story thus far makes you think he's willing to take support from them?

In the first issue, Megatron is planning a rally that is likely to be attended by members of the Rise (who are shown to be amenable to Megatron's message). There is precedent for violence, which Megatron seems to accept. He may not approve of the violence. But, he wants support from the Rise.