TF Views

I still think this is more of a case of Dom holding a grudge against a fandom that no longer exists. Case in point would be the comment about most fans not being able to mention Nightracer without somehow connecting it to Raksha. As of right now, that statement is, I think, provably wrong. The thing to bear in mind here is that the fandom is not the same as it was ~15-20 years ago in the old days of the ATT/Allspark boards. Well, Allspark is still around but it's generally considered the Mos Eisley Spaceport of fansites. I would say that the bulk of the fans on the internet now are ones that have started interacting with the fandom within the last 5-10years and most of us have no freakin clue what a Raksha is nor do we care. So saying nightracer to someone like myself means nothing other than to referrence a Botcon toy or two.

So yeah, back in the bad ol' days maybe this would have been "pandering to the fandom" but again, that iteration of the fandom no longer exists.

Another problem with this (sorry Dom), is that Dom is one of those that lets others dictate how he feels about the fiction he reads/watches. look at the whole situation with Synjo a few years ago. Synjo has completely ruined BW for Dom. Which means that now, whenever BW or the Beast Era comes up, Dom invariably has a dislike for it because of what happened with Synjo. I personally wouldn't, I would just think "Fuck him" and continue enjoying my BW marathon like nothing happened. But not everyone is me and I can't help the feeling that somewhere along the line, Dom had some negative interactions with some fan somewhere that forever reduces the concept of TFs and Romance as anything other than "shipping" and "pandering". It's unfortunate, but there you have it.

Shockwave
-This is why I routinely encourage Dom to have less interaction with the fandom. Excluding us of course

Dominic wrote:Would you rather see a lower quality story with emotional depth?

Why does it always have to be an extreme trade-off? MLP has better writing *and* deeper emotions than TF. So... I'd rather see a higher quality story with emotional depth, is my answer.

Okay, then why should TF be stuck with "robots in disguise?

It isn't "stuck" with it. It's never actually *done* it! I'd like to see it actually make the transformation gimmick part of the story. Hardly unreasonable.

G1 Season 3 had a few of those sorts of episodes. I liked The Ultimate Weapon, in spite of the poor payoff. Pretty sure I saw First Aid shooting a gun in an episode after that.

It's funny, what Trekwave says about Dom, considering he seems to take such a deep interest in the fandom at large, having way more developed opinions than I'd ever have on real people like David Willis, Nick Roche etc etc, but simultaneously seems to *despise* most of the fandom. =p And as O6 pointed out, I think the fans to whom Dom refers do exist, but he's reacting to them in a really daft way.

Dom wrote:It is a question of which parts of the audience are being engaged and rewarded though. In the case of HotRod and Arcee, the target was little girls who had to sit through the movie with their brothers and families. In the case of Chromedome and Rewind, it is (probably) the kind of fan that I do not want to see more of getting rewarded. (Again, I would rather wait for Roberts' comments, rather than continuously restating my position on this question.)

Okay, now this is just silly. Putting aside the idea that the Hot Rod/Arcee thing was put in specifically for any little girls who may have been watching, and not just because romantic tension is something you have to have in cartoons with a female in the cast (seriously, name me a female character in a kids' cartoon who didn't end up as someone's love interest. I'll wait.), not to mention the way Arcee's womanhandling of Hot Rod is designed as a primarily male-appeal romantic encounter/situation, I just can't get behind this idea you keep pushing that any of this stuff was put in to 'reward' anyone. Do you also think Roberts had Magnus killed off to 'reward' readers who didn't like the character, or brought Overlord back to 'reward' fans of his own previous work? Why is it so unbelievable that Roberts wrote all this stuff because it was what *he* wanted to write, because it was the story *he* wanted to tell?

G wrote:Dom, considering he seems to take such a deep interest in the fandom at large, having way more developed opinions than I'd ever have on real people like David Willis

I will go on record as saying that I believe I hate David Willis more than Dom does. I actually continue to read Shortpacked to this day, just to find fodder to let me hate him more.

BWprowl wrote:name me a female character in a kids' cartoon who didn't end up as someone's love interest. I'll wait.

Marin from Saint Seiya. Kurumada had a habit of giving his protagonist a female teacher and having them never end up with someone.

But yes, that is generally what girls (and vicariously, love stories) are 'for' in kids cartoons. Times haven't changed thaaaat much...

Why does it always have to be an extreme trade-off? MLP has better writing *and* deeper emotions than TF. So... I'd rather see a higher quality story with emotional depth, is my answer.

That is a fair answer.

But, I was wondering how much weight you would assign to emotional depth.

G1 Season 3 had a few of those sorts of episodes. I liked The Ultimate Weapon, in spite of the poor payoff. Pretty sure I saw First Aid shooting a gun in an episode after that.

That was a pretty solid episode. But, they really should have left out the Rodimus/Galvatron angle.

I will go on record as saying that I believe I hate David Willis more than Dom does. I actually continue to read Shortpacked to this day, just to find fodder to let me hate him more.

And people say that I have issues with the fandom?!?!?!??

Speaking of issues, it is time for Dom to get on the couch!

I generally dislike feelings in fiction. Maybe it is because I am pretty well in touch with my own feelings, (misanthropic as they tend to be). But, I tend to think that fiction has better uses. And, in a more objective sense, I have seen the damage that a focus on feelings has done to education in this country.

At this point, there are college students, even graduates, who can talk all day about how they feel but not much about what they think. Assignments that ask them to objectively consider subject matter (in any number of disciplines) are answered with multiple "I" statements, often at the encouragement of instructors (the same people who should be discouraging that kind of behavior).

It is all about emotion dammit. It is all about what the reader feels, not what the writer has actually written.

For years, we have had the creative misreading (not always relating to humour) about how "the Transformers are ghey 'cuz they is all doods"). And, a fair amount of that was from fans who *wanted* gay robots for.....whatever goddam buggyfuck crazy reason they wanted gay robots for. But, that sort of thinking was ultimately rooted in a misreading....unitl now.

Now, we have a comic that specifically is rewarding that kind of thinking. And, it is rewarding and validating that thinking in a fandom that has trouble parsing back-writes from original content (along with possibly fact and fiction). Now, the "ghey space robots" crowd" has been all around validated. And, it is happening in a book that is literally and metaphorically aimless aside from incorporating all kinds of fannish bits that make TFs more human and easier to identify with, even if the story has no other purpose. And, at least some of the fandom needs this. They fucking need to identify with their damned gay space robots because it is how they feel. And, how they feel is more important than what they might think or understand because they do not fucking think or understand.

Is this really unique to the Transfandom? No. But, dammit, I was hoping that it would be much less prominent.

And, yes, this does make me angry. I have no desire to read comics that play in to and reward a poisonous trend in this country.


Dom
-actually is going to study on a couch in the lounge.

Shockwave wrote:I still think this is more of a case of Dom holding a grudge against a fandom that no longer exists. Case in point would be the comment about most fans not being able to mention Nightracer without somehow connecting it to Raksha. As of right now, that statement is, I think, provably wrong. The thing to bear in mind here is that the fandom is not the same as it was ~15-20 years ago in the old days of the ATT/Allspark boards. Well, Allspark is still around but it's generally considered the Mos Eisley Spaceport of fansites. I would say that the bulk of the fans on the internet now are ones that have started interacting with the fandom within the last 5-10years and most of us have no freakin clue what a Raksha is nor do we care. So saying nightracer to someone like myself means nothing other than to referrence a Botcon toy or two.

So yeah, back in the bad ol' days maybe this would have been "pandering to the fandom" but again, that iteration of the fandom no longer exists.

Another problem with this (sorry Dom), is that Dom is one of those that lets others dictate how he feels about the fiction he reads/watches. look at the whole situation with Synjo a few years ago. Synjo has completely ruined BW for Dom. Which means that now, whenever BW or the Beast Era comes up, Dom invariably has a dislike for it because of what happened with Synjo. I personally wouldn't, I would just think "Fuck him" and continue enjoying my BW marathon like nothing happened. But not everyone is me and I can't help the feeling that somewhere along the line, Dom had some negative interactions with some fan somewhere that forever reduces the concept of TFs and Romance as anything other than "shipping" and "pandering". It's unfortunate, but there you have it.

Shockwave
-This is why I routinely encourage Dom to have less interaction with the fandom. Excluding us of course

I think the internet fandom has got worse & not better. Due to so many now using multiple accounts on each moderated TF forum to troll,harass,flame bait & cyber bully. Due to onion routers,proxy servers,internet cafes,iphone's,etc.. a person can create as many fake user id's on a forum as his spare time & his money permits him to.

I arrived on ATT after RAska left but I heard stories about Raska being a huge Decepticon fan & loving starstream. I remember another female member on ATT called Blue-Jackal she was from the UK or europe.

Dominic wrote:And people say that I have issues with the fandom?!?!?!??

Hey now, I hate David Willis as a pastime! I do it to unwind late in the evening. I find it to be a healthy, comforting activity.

It is all about emotion dammit. It is all about what the reader feels, not what the writer has actually written.

I don't wholly disagree with you that an over-reliance on emotional elements can hold back a story from succeeding. However, I do find it exceptionally ironic that your distaste of Roberts's work is based on you 'feeling' that certain elements were included for a particular reason you think is there, rather than you objectively judging the writer's ideas and how the elements he put in there support them.

As you have demonstrated with your own examples, use of emotions in stories can be used to strengthen their ideas. The core point of 'Transmutate' for example would not have stood out as well had the audience not been able to emotionally connect with Silverbolt's own connection with the creature.

BWprowl wrote:

Dominic wrote:And people say that I have issues with the fandom?!?!?!??

Hey now, I hate David Willis as a pastime! I do it to unwind late in the evening. I find it to be a healthy, comforting activity.

David willis created a blog page named after my iconic TF user name. On the blog page him & his buddies would post stuff mocking about me & discuss it. David would stalk me around on various TF moderated forums & ATT for the sole purpose of copying & pasting my threads/replies on his blog page,He'd go as far as to re-write my threads/replies with tons of added in grammar mistakes,mis-spellings & so forth. APPARENTLY THE BLOG PAGE HE CREATED FOR ME WAS SO POPULAR IT DREW IN DOZENS OF MALICIOUS TF FANS THAT USE TO ADD COMMENTS ALL NIGHT LONG.

Clearly some TF fans are more mailcious than others & use technology in more evil ways than others.

It's really sad that some waste their lives away by stalking & harassing fellow TF fans on the internet. Clearly they have no families,no friends,no jobs & are what most refer to as social outcast shut ins/hermits.

Dominic wrote:

Why does it always have to be an extreme trade-off? MLP has better writing *and* deeper emotions than TF. So... I'd rather see a higher quality story with emotional depth, is my answer.

That is a fair answer.

But, I was wondering how much weight you would assign to emotional depth.

G1 Season 3 had a few of those sorts of episodes. I liked The Ultimate Weapon, in spite of the poor payoff. Pretty sure I saw First Aid shooting a gun in an episode after that.

That was a pretty solid episode. But, they really should have left out the Rodimus/Galvatron angle.

I will go on record as saying that I believe I hate David Willis more than Dom does. I actually continue to read Shortpacked to this day, just to find fodder to let me hate him more.

And people say that I have issues with the fandom?!?!?!??

Speaking of issues, it is time for Dom to get on the couch!

I generally dislike feelings in fiction. Maybe it is because I am pretty well in touch with my own feelings, (misanthropic as they tend to be). But, I tend to think that fiction has better uses. And, in a more objective sense, I have seen the damage that a focus on feelings has done to education in this country.

At this point, there are college students, even graduates, who can talk all day about how they feel but not much about what they think. Assignments that ask them to objectively consider subject matter (in any number of disciplines) are answered with multiple "I" statements, often at the encouragement of instructors (the same people who should be discouraging that kind of behavior).

It is all about emotion dammit. It is all about what the reader feels, not what the writer has actually written.

For years, we have had the creative misreading (not always relating to humour) about how "the Transformers are ghey 'cuz they is all doods"). And, a fair amount of that was from fans who *wanted* gay robots for.....whatever goddam buggyfuck crazy reason they wanted gay robots for. But, that sort of thinking was ultimately rooted in a misreading....unitl now.

Now, we have a comic that specifically is rewarding that kind of thinking. And, it is rewarding and validating that thinking in a fandom that has trouble parsing back-writes from original content (along with possibly fact and fiction). Now, the "ghey space robots" crowd" has been all around validated. And, it is happening in a book that is literally and metaphorically aimless aside from incorporating all kinds of fannish bits that make TFs more human and easier to identify with, even if the story has no other purpose. And, at least some of the fandom needs this. They fucking need to identify with their damned gay space robots because it is how they feel. And, how they feel is more important than what they might think or understand because they do not fucking think or understand.

Is this really unique to the Transfandom? No. But, dammit, I was hoping that it would be much less prominent.

And, yes, this does make me angry. I have no desire to read comics that play in to and reward a poisonous trend in this country.


Dom
-actually is going to study on a couch in the lounge.

And see, the thing we're trying to illustrate here is that the story isn't rewarding anything or anyone. You talk about how it's bad that feelings get in the way of thinking and understanding but seem completely unable to apply that analysis to a comic book. This book wasn't written to reward anyone, it's just a story that Roberts wanted to tell and should be taken on it's own merits, not to be judged on what some imaginary parts of a long changed fandom is going to think. I mean, you're basically telling us that your feelings about the Transformers fandom is preventing you from thinking about or understanding the story for it's own merits. Again, this is why I say you should stay away from places like Allspark or devientart. I haven't gone onto deviantart for years mostly because it's just the type of fans you're referring to that post pictures of robots having sex or babies. or both. And I know those aren't fans I wanna associate with so I don't go there. But, I'm sure as hell not going to assume that just because Chromedome and Rewind list each other as "next of kin" or "significant other" that a professional writer has actually decided to pander to those immature fans. And, for the real sincher on this, I think you might want to ask yourself what would his motivation for rewarding immature fans be? There isn't any.

Also, I don't really read Chromedome and Rewind as being "Gay space robots" or even having a "romantic" relationship. I mean, think about it, what do real people who never get married do? Who do they list as their next of kin? I'm 38 and still single and am facing the very real possibility that at my great age I may never do so. In this case, who am I going to list as my next of kin (once my parents are gone)? Probably my closest personal friends. So for me, I can actually see such a relationship in a real functional context without having to go to the "gay space robot" place.

Tigermegatron wrote:

BWprowl wrote:

Dominic wrote:And people say that I have issues with the fandom?!?!?!??

Hey now, I hate David Willis as a pastime! I do it to unwind late in the evening. I find it to be a healthy, comforting activity.

David willis created a blog page named after my iconic TF user name. On the blog page him & his buddies would post stuff mocking about me & discuss it. David would stalk me around on various TF moderated forums & ATT for the sole purpose of copying & pasting my threads/replies on his blog page,He'd go as far as to re-write my threads/replies with tons of added in grammar mistakes,mis-spellings & so forth. APPARENTLY THE BLOG PAGE HE CREATED FOR ME WAS SO POPULAR IT DREW IN DOZENS OF MALICIOUS TF FANS THAT USE TO ADD COMMENTS ALL NIGHT LONG.

Clearly some TF fans are more mailcious than others & use technology in more evil ways than others.

It's really sad that some waste their lives away by stalking & harassing fellow TF fans on the internet. Clearly they have no families,no friends,no jobs & are what most refer to as social outcast shut ins/hermits.

Was that your current one, tigermegatron or did you have another one (I really have not had much interaction with the fandom beyond here and sometimes TFW).

And this is so true. I really just don't understand people that do stuff like this. I just don't have time for it. And even if I did, I could think of like a billion other better uses for my time.