TF Views

Dominic wrote:

Just because Thundercracker and Skywarp arose out of Hasbro's laziness when you were a kid doesn't make them 'more important' than the repaints that arise from laziness now.

Except that Thundercracker and Skywarp have actually done stuff, unlike "non-show same-character recolour of ______________" or "non-screen character recolour of ________________". There is a difference, and you are creatively ignoring it.

Aside from the fact that Prowl and Jazz and Ironhide all have modern toys *already*, it's bonkers to think that characters should be 'rotated out' on a timed basis. No one talked about nonsense like 'rotating' particular characters from BW through the UT;

Jazz has not had a *good* toy in how many years? Prowl came out over 5 years ago, and Ironhide not long after. (And, those were just examples.) The point is that there are plenty of characters that could stand to get updated toys, and in some cases have never been made as good toys. (Until '09 or so, Ironhide was the main example of that principle.)

Considering the main fan-audience gobbling up all these redundant G1-reimaginings are the same people that argued for years that the G1 toys were somehow better than the BW toys by virtue of being 'good enough' representations of the characters that *they* grew up with, they've got no place saying there's a reason for the existence of marginally-better versions of toys like Waspinator and Rattrap.

Dominic wrote: Actually, most of those GeeWunners are not buying any toys because they are happy with three decade old junk.

The people who are buying the new toys of old characters tend to be like me, either not having toys of said characters at all or wanting better toys of said characters. If I liked Cheetor, I would still want a good toy of Cheetor that looked like the show. (That arguably happened with the Transmetal figure and during "Beast Machines", but those figure still had significant flaws and deviations from the show.)

Do you know how many years I waited for something that resembled a good Ironhide? I still want an Ironhide that looks like Casey Coller's illustrations of the character. But, after 25+ years of waiting for an acceptable Ironhide, the '09 figure is good enough for now.
Dom

I agree with Dom.

Only the fans enjoy buying repeative homages/repaints.

Parents/kids simply are not interested in buying the same persona characters over & over. The reasons why the TF toy sales have been low/poor for a few years is due to Hasbro being overly obsessed with the current core chast.

It doesn't matter if it's a new toy line. Parents/kids are fed up with bumblebee,optimus,megatron,starscream,bulkhead & soundwave. They are not going to buy anymore of these core cast characters because they own them already from other TF toy lines.

Hasbro needs to get the TF toy sales back up,in order to do this,their needs to be a rotation in & out of the core cast.

It's a bad idea to waste the smaller sizes like legends & commanders to give the bigger toys repeative toys in the smaller sizes. I'd rather see legends & commanders get all new persona/spark molds. this size level should be wisely used for the limbs combiners,while the core/team leader gets a deluxe sized toy.

I think it's kinda redundant for fans to expect/demand multiple seekers repaints every time Hasbro creates a newer seeker starscream toy. Repaints are only fun if their not redundant or over obsessive. putting out too repaints can hurt any TF toy line,as repaints are guaranteed shelf/peg warmers. having repaints clog shelves/pegs means stores don't order newer waves until stuff get bought.

Examples on how to fix the 2014/2015 TF toy brand. Have 2 newer TF cartoons with accompanying toy lines in 2014/2015. Have on TF toy line called "Classics",while the 2nd one is called "Operation combination." <------ Both will have cel based cartoons & not CGI.
1- Classics could have Transformers characters like Optimus Prime,Megatron/Galvatron,Cyclonus, 1986 Scourge,Sunstreaker,Jazz,Redalert,Perceptor,Rodimus Prime,Thunderwing,Fortress maximus,Scorponok,Sixshot,Horrorcons,monsterbots,etyc...
2- Operation combination,since it'll be running at almost the same time Classics is running,Can be a series/toy line minus optimus & megatron. The leaders in the series could be Metroplex & Trypticon. The combiners teams could be Stunticons,Protectobots,Dinobots,aerialbots,constructicons,combaticons,technobots,predacons,etc.. the various different toy sizes could all be used for the limbs & core/team leaders.

MTMTE #22

Finally finished the latest issue, the one with Thunderclash, and I'll admit it took me a few tries to get through it. Because there's no plot. It's amusing up to a point, but there's a definite "been here, done this" feel to the issue. As one of the characters in the story points out: " all you do is argue, crack jokes, and get sidetracked doing pointless, silly things that only you find amusing!" Yeah, a whole issue of that is a bit much, even if there were some funny bits of dialogue.

It's nice to see some James Raiz art again. The inks seemed a bit heavy, but Raiz should definitely stick around and draw some more Transformers.

BWprowl wrote: But MTMTE doesn't go that route, and instead seems content to have James Roberts' favorite characters blab to each other endlessly about how entertaining they allegedly are. The fact that Roberts actually acknowledges this tendency as an *issue* on-page and then makes no attempt to fix it only exacerbates it as a problem.

I don't mind it as part of a story. I do have a problem when this takes over an entire issue.

Dominic wrote:Except that Thundercracker and Skywarp have actually done stuff, unlike "non-show same-character recolour of ______________" or "non-screen character recolour of ________________". There is a difference, and you are creatively ignoring it.

Okay, then if they absolutely have to make toys of ‘Blue and Black jet guys from nearly thirty years ago’, some reason they can’t differentiate them somehow? Let them be their own, unique-looking molds with more defining features, and have that represented in the comics (since Hasbro can clearly exercise that sort of thing now). You get your team of jets, we get more interesting, unique molds that actually advances elements of how the brand works, and Hasbro can get those guys on shelves without having to worry about the alleged issue of “Stores don’t want to sell the same mold too many times”. And you don’t hear people bitching for five years about how Hasbro didn’t make the right repaint for them.

Jazz has not had a *good* toy in how many years?

My own misgivings about RTS Jazz aside, that toy is still *fine*. An unsatisfactory facial-expression-sculpt and a chest that doesn’t lock down doesn’t necessitate trotting out a brand new Jazz mold.

Largely, you seem to be confusing 'good' with 'perfect'.

Prowl came out over 5 years ago, and Ironhide not long after. (And, those were just examples.) The point is that there are plenty of characters that could stand to get updated toys, and in some cases have never been made as good toys. (Until '09 or so, Ironhide was the main example of that principle.)

Jesus balls, seriously? A toy comes out five years prior, and suddenly it’s worthwhile to waste time, resources, and shelf-space selling a marginally updated version? This sort of thinking is the reason you can go to yojoe and see forty fucking Storm Shadows listed. At the absolute most, they could do ‘second runs’ of figures like Universe Prowl and Ironhide, available on HTS or something, so latecomers could get a shot at them if they really wanted them and couldn’t swing eBay. Maybe re-release those toys in store-exclusive multipacks or something (the way they keep doing with the Classics Seekers in Japan, actually). But the toys themselves are *fine*, they absolutely do not need to be updated. Any ‘improvements’ in something like Prowl would be far too marginal to be worth it.

Moreover, if they moved to this model, it would absolutely obliterate the collecting mindset. Why would you feel compelled to pick up, say, a new Ironhide that was put on the shelves if you were aware that Hasbro was just going to make a slightly better one five years down the road? Why would you buy that next one then? How would you know when they’d hit absolute perfection and wouldn’t be making any more? The best way to collect the line would just be to wait until TF as a brand completely imploded and Hasbro went out of business, then by the ‘last’ versions of everyone, so you could be certain you got the ‘best’ versions possible. It’s ridiculous.

The people who are buying the new toys of old characters tend to be like me, either not having toys of said characters at all or wanting better toys of said characters. If I liked Cheetor, I would still want a good toy of Cheetor that looked like the show. (That arguably happened with the Transmetal figure and during "Beast Machines", but those figure still had significant flaws and deviations from the show.)

Putting aside that I still don’t understand how you can accuse the figures of ‘deviating from the show’ when we all know it’s the other way around, there’s still the matter that Transmetal Cheetor looks perfectly like the show. You can buff off the printed name, since that’s the main issue I can think of, but otherwise it’s a terrific toy.

Furthermore, BW happened nearly twenty years ago. How the hell are people still sitting around crying for a new, better toy of Cheetor? Hasbro proved in Universe that they couldn’t even pull it off anyway, and these people should have moved the hell on in the first place.

Yeah, Rhinox actually benefits from getting a new toy, but I’d never in a million years have considered that we’d *get* one. I had completely given up on the prospect of something as ridiculous as a ‘new’ Rhinox, and I wasn’t any sadder for it, I was more excited about what was coming next, what ‘new’ stuff was coming in the future. If you’d told me two years ago that you thought Hasbro should make room for a new Rhinox in the line, I’d have called you a fucking retard.

So to go and do that *more*, and waste space like that on guys like Rattrap and Waspinator, who unlike Rhinox, didn’t even NEED new toys, comes off as incredibly needless and backwards to me.

Do you know how many years I waited for something that resembled a good Ironhide? I still want an Ironhide that looks like Casey Coller's illustrations of the character. But, after 25+ years of waiting for an acceptable Ironhide, the '09 figure is good enough for now.

Yeah, and ’95 Rattrap and Waspinator, who are arguably better toys than ’09 Ironhide, are still ‘good enough’ for now. Why on earth did we need new ones? There’s a quantum leap between G1 Ironhide and Universe Ironhide. Between BW Waspinator and Generations Waspinator? Not so much.

Shockwave wrote:But, your perspective is justifiably different because by the time you got into the franchise there were already hundreds of characters on both sides to choose from so you weren't limited to just the ten Decepticons and Skywarp and Thundercracker had kind of fallen into obscurity at that point, so your "senior officers" were different so there's less attachment to the 84 characters.

Which is the way it should be. Ditch the old shit, leave it in the past, and move onto something new and more interesting.

I’m not exaggerating when I say that I would be happy to never see a repeated, remade, or re-interpreted character in the line ever again.

I dunno if I'd say "full" articulation but I agree with this. The BW toys certainly had WAY better articulation than the G1 guys.

Head, shoulders, elbows, hips, knees, all on universal ball joints. You could potentially add wrists, ankles, and waist articulation, but you’re getting greedy and OCD at that point, and it still doesn’t justify wasting time on a whole new toy.

Shockwave wrote:

BWprowl wrote:Considering the main fan-audience gobbling up all these redundant G1-reimaginings are the same people that argued for years that the G1 toys were somehow better than the BW toys by virtue of being 'good enough' representations of the characters that *they* grew up with, they've got no place saying there's a reason for the existence of marginally-better versions of toys like Waspinator and Rattrap.

Has anyone ever actually said that?

Which part, the part about G1 toys being better than BW toys, or the part about wanting re-made BW toys?

It's nice to see some James Raiz art again. The inks seemed a bit heavy, but Raiz should definitely stick around and draw some more Transformers

To be fair, issue 22 was a wrap-up for the series. It makes sense that it would reflect the over-all tone and directly (or lack of the latter) of "More than Meets the Eye".

Raiz being on art sold the issue for me. I have been a fan of his since his (all too short) run on "Armada" 10+ years ago.

Okay, then if they absolutely have to make toys of ‘Blue and Black jet guys from nearly thirty years ago’, some reason they can’t differentiate them somehow? Let them be their own, unique-looking molds with more defining features, and have that represented in the comics (since Hasbro can clearly exercise that sort of thing now). You get your team of jets, we get more interesting, unique molds that actually advances elements of how the brand works, and Hasbro can get those guys on shelves without having to worry about the alleged issue of “Stores don’t want to sell the same mold too many times”. And you don’t hear people bitching for five years about how Hasbro didn’t make the right repaint for them.

I would like to see jets (both established characters and new characters or even troop-builders) with unique weapons. But, that involves a tooling budget that Hasbro would have accepted for maybe a few years at the turn of the decade ('08 to *maybe* '10). And, there is enough precedent to make Skywarp and Thundercracker (two established and significant characters) as straight recolours of Starscream.

Moreover, if they moved to this model, it would absolutely obliterate the collecting mindset. Why would you feel compelled to pick up, say, a new Ironhide that was put on the shelves if you were aware that Hasbro was just going to make a slightly better one five years down the road? Why would you buy that next one then? How would you know when they’d hit absolute perfection and wouldn’t be making any more? The best way to collect the line would just be to wait until TF as a brand completely imploded and Hasbro went out of business, then by the ‘last’ versions of everyone, so you could be certain you got the ‘best’ versions possible. It’s ridiculous.

Uh, actually, that model worked well enough for "Star Wars". At any given time, at least two main characters from both sets of movies would be available. And, barring any significant and abrupt change in Habro's design sensibilities, it would take maybe a year for passive collectors to get a complete "set" of main characters that all looked about right together. And, along the way, Hasbro produced secondary, tertiary or more obscure characters. (Granted, SW toys suck now. But, that is another discussion.)

At a certain point, some toys need to be updated. As good as figures from the late 90s were, Hasbro was making better stuff 5 years ago. If I were a fan of "Star Wars", I would want a better Qui Gon Jin than the one sold in 1999.

Putting aside that I still don’t understand how you can accuse the figures of ‘deviating from the show’ when we all know it’s the other way around, there’s still the matter that Transmetal Cheetor looks perfectly like the show. You can buff off the printed name, since that’s the main issue I can think of, but otherwise it’s a terrific toy.

Uh, buffing off the name would terdify the chrome.

And, the facial sculpt on Transmetal Cheetor is shit.

I’m not exaggerating when I say that I would be happy to never see a repeated, remade, or re-interpreted character in the line ever again.

I want toys that look like the damned comics that are keeping me in the hobby.

I want good toys that look like the G1 characters (because most G1 toys looked like shit 25 years ago). Why has there not been a good Bludgeon toy that looks like the comics?

I want good toys based on some of the IDW stuff. (I still want a good IDW Kup. Not gonna happen. But, I want one.)

I have zero interest in a toy based on a character that has appeared in and done abolutely nothing of interest.

Dominic wrote:I would like to see jets (both established characters and new characters or even troop-builders) with unique weapons. But, that involves a tooling budget that Hasbro would have accepted for maybe a few years at the turn of the decade ('08 to *maybe* '10). And, there is enough precedent to make Skywarp and Thundercracker (two established and significant characters) as straight recolours of Starscream.

Screw precedent, it’s *lazy* and *boring* to do it that way. If you’re gonna do the same characters over and over, at least update the way that they’re being done.

Uh, actually, that model worked well enough for "Star Wars". At any given time, at least two main characters from both sets of movies would be available. And, barring any significant and abrupt change in Habro's design sensibilities, it would take maybe a year for passive collectors to get a complete "set" of main characters that all looked about right together. And, along the way, Hasbro produced secondary, tertiary or more obscure characters. (Granted, SW toys suck now. But, that is another discussion.)

At a certain point, some toys need to be updated. As good as figures from the late 90s were, Hasbro was making better stuff 5 years ago. If I were a fan of "Star Wars", I would want a better Qui Gon Jin than the one sold in 1999.

‘Transformers’ isn’t ‘Star Wars’ though. SW gets by on characters featured in a handful of movies, because the characters themselves are all the toys have to offer. Literally any action figure with up-to-current-standards articulation can ‘function’ the same way a given toy of a SW character does, they don’t *do* anything. You don’t buy a figure of Qui-Gon Jinn because of interesting sculpting on the lightsaber, or use of cloth elements, or interesting new articulation systems, you buy it because it looks like Qui-Gon Jinn and you want a thing that looks like Qui-Gon Jinn to sit on your shelf. (And really, there’s an apex. Once you’ve got a Qui-Gon Jinn that looks good and has all the necessary articulation, why on earth would you ever need to buy a new version? Hasbro could get by on regularly reissuing the toys from the last three years if they wanted too, there’s little to improve on).

But TF can be so much more than that. You don’t just buy, say, Cybertron Soundwave to sit on your shelf and look kinda like Soundwave, you buy him because he’s got cool bombs that change into guns and a bird minion, because he has a key-activated bomb-dropping gimmick, and most importantly, because the whole toy can be fiddled around to transform into a nifty alien stealth-bomber. No other action figure can turn into the type of jet the way the Cybertron Soundwave mold does, it’s wholly unique from just being A Posable Figure Of A Dude the way GI Joes, or Star Wars toys, or Star Trek toys are. The whole toy has things to experience and discover on its own, separate from any fictional context you may associate with it for fondness. I have no reason to pick up a toy of some Mos Eisly patron from SW, because I don’t know who the hell that guy is, and he’s not going to *do* anything other than sit on my shelf and look like some guy I don’t know, maybe move his arms and legs to look like some guy I don’t know in a running or shooting pose. But I bought the hell out of Beast Hunters Ripclaw, even though she has no fictional context, since I know that even though I know nothing about her since there’s nothing TO know, I’m still gonna get enjoyment from the sheer fiddle value she possesses by being a Transformers, and one that turns into things and does things I haven’t seen before in Transformers besides.

I genuinely believe that Transformers are the absolute greatest toys in the world, because of that value, and people who want to see it become the same guys turning into the same stuff the same ways year after year (and Hasbro obliging them) are absolutely killing it for me.

And, the facial sculpt on Transmetal Cheetor is shit.

It looks like the show, though.

I want toys that look like the damned comics that are keeping me in the hobby.

I just want toys that will keep me in the hobby. The comics can then be based off of those.

Why has there not been a good Bludgeon toy that looks like the comics?

Because up until this year, Bludgeon’s Marvel comic design was wholly irrelevant (much like Rattrap and Waspinator, but hey). The ROTF toy took the core concept of Bludgeon and reinvented it around modern engineering and design, and we ended up with an amazing toy. The generic-bodied, samurai-with-a-skull-face that only remembers it’s a Transformer half the time from the comics? Who needs that as a toy?

I have zero interest in a toy based on a character that has appeared in and done abolutely nothing of interest.

As I said above, I agree with this. For every toyline that isn’t Transformers. It’s one of the few toylines where, by virtue of what they *are* and how they *work*, can stand on their own. And Hasbro (and the fans), for whatever reason, seem content not to exploit that, or advance what it could be in any way. Transformers handled like ‘GI Joe’ just kills me.

Dominic wrote:Raiz being on art sold the issue for me. I have been a fan of his since his (all too short) run on "Armada" 10+ years ago.

So have I. I hope IDW keeps him around in some capacity.

I just want toys that will keep me in the hobby. The comics can then be based off of those.

So, you would rather have bad comics based on toys you bought than good comics?

(And really, there’s an apex. Once you’ve got a Qui-Gon Jinn that looks good and has all the necessary articulation, why on earth would you ever need to buy a new version? Hasbro could get by on regularly reissuing the toys from the last three years if they wanted too, there’s little to improve on).

In theory, toys will get better over time as technology improves. More than once, I have seen SW figures that were as good as I expected them to be....and then seen better toys of the same characters a few years later. Moulding and paint can always be improved.

It looks like the show, though.

The hell it does. On screen, Cheetor had a jaw and a visible mouth. In plastic, Cheetor has a grill/speaker for a mouth. The two look nothing alike. (This was also a problem with Transmetal Rattrap.)

The generic-bodied, samurai-with-a-skull-face that only remembers it’s a Transformer half the time from the comics? Who needs that as a toy?

People who want a toy based on how the character looked in the comics that made the character relevant.

Dominic wrote:So, you would rather have bad comics based on toys you bought than good comics?

If the comics suck, I just won't read them. It's pretty much what I'm going to be doing now, and the caveat there is that all the toys on shelves now are based on those comics, and not interesting enough on their own to keep me drawn in (I still have no idea why I bought that damn Hoist). If the toys are actually interesting and worth buying on their own, at least when the comics turn to poop I still have a reason to keep getting toys.

Cool comics can come from pretty much any source (I'm reading GI Joe somewhat regularly, for chrissakes). Cool transforming robot toys are a lot harder to come by.

In theory, toys will get better over time as technology improves. More than once, I have seen SW figures that were as good as I expected them to be....and then seen better toys of the same characters a few years later. Moulding and paint can always be improved.

Then why the shit even buy the things? If I can look at a Qui-Gon on the shelf and go "But a better one will be out in just two years!", what motivation do I have to get the one on the shelf? With something like Ripclaw, I'm nabbing it going "There might never be something like this again!"

The hell it does. On screen, Cheetor had a jaw and a visible mouth. In plastic, Cheetor has a grill/speaker for a mouth. The two look nothing alike. (This was also a problem with Transmetal Rattrap.)

I never read that as a 'speaker' at all, it just looks like an open mouth to me (he has those liney-grille-y bits behind his mouth in the show too, reinforcing this look). That's just how the BW guys sculpted mouths, they look fine.

Dominic wrote:The hell it does. On screen, Cheetor had a jaw and a visible mouth. In plastic, Cheetor has a grill/speaker for a mouth. The two look nothing alike. (This was also a problem with Transmetal Rattrap.)

I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be an expression of snarling, not a grill. The lines are supposed to be teeth. And I'd have to agree with BWprowl on this... Transmetal Cheetor is a very faithful representation of the character from the show.

BWprowl wrote:

Shockwave wrote:But, your perspective is justifiably different because by the time you got into the franchise there were already hundreds of characters on both sides to choose from so you weren't limited to just the ten Decepticons and Skywarp and Thundercracker had kind of fallen into obscurity at that point, so your "senior officers" were different so there's less attachment to the 84 characters.

Which is the way it should be. Ditch the old shit, leave it in the past, and move onto something new and more interesting.

Why? Why is your perspective the right one? The "old shit" is what made the franchise to begin with, if you're going to ditch it why not just start an entirely new different franchise based on whatever new different thing? Franchises HAVE to stay true to their core concept or they start to suck. This has been proven many times in many franchises already and even in TF itself. Even if we limit that statement to just the characters, there's still going to be some resistance from the fandom. As there should be. Because fans have already invested our time and money on those characters and we didn't waste all of that just to have some young whippersnapper come along and wipe it out for no other reason than "I'm sick of hearing old people yammer on about those things they like". If there's not going to be any connection between the new thing and the old thing then again, why bother? Just come up with a new franchise altogether.

BWprowl wrote:I’m not exaggerating when I say that I would be happy to never see a repeated, remade, or re-interpreted character in the line ever again.

I dunno if I'd say "full" articulation but I agree with this. The BW toys certainly had WAY better articulation than the G1 guys.

Head, shoulders, elbows, hips, knees, all on universal ball joints. You could potentially add wrists, ankles, and waist articulation, but you’re getting greedy and OCD at that point, and it still doesn’t justify wasting time on a whole new toy.

I disagree with this up to a point and that point is the point you mentioned with the Star Wars toys. I bought a Darth Vader figure back in 2006 and have not needed a new one since. Star Wars and GI Joe have already reached that apex point for me. Unfortunately, articulation and tooling on TFs doesn't hold up as well. By and large, I am happy with Classics voyager Optimus being my representation of G1 Prime, but that mold has not aged well over the years. It's not terrible, but it there is room for some improvement. Wanting toys with articulation that is standard fare right now is not greedy. I mean, what's wrong with people wanting their favorite characters to have the best possible toys they can? And, unfortunately, many of the Classics molds have not held up well over the years. Everything from Universe on however, more or less has. As for toys looking like the fiction, I agree with prowl that the fiction should be drawn to match the toys, but unfortunately the toys aren't made with enough articulation to be able to be directly translated into an animated format. At least not until the last 5 years or so.

As for the seekers, there's precedent both ways. Obviously in G1 they were straight repaints of each other, but other iterations like Armada and Cybertron had them as totally different molds (or at least modified in the case of Armada Skywarp).

BWprowl wrote:

Shockwave wrote:

BWprowl wrote:Considering the main fan-audience gobbling up all these redundant G1-reimaginings are the same people that argued for years that the G1 toys were somehow better than the BW toys by virtue of being 'good enough' representations of the characters that *they* grew up with, they've got no place saying there's a reason for the existence of marginally-better versions of toys like Waspinator and Rattrap.

Has anyone ever actually said that?

Which part, the part about G1 toys being better than BW toys, or the part about wanting re-made BW toys?

Um all of it actually. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say any of this, at least not with the implication of one relating to the other.