TF Views

BWprowl wrote:

But, fuck them, right? They can always buy their toys for more money on eBay, right? Let them hunt on eBay and/or pick over junk at flea markets if they want toys of characters that they happen to like. (That will make them want to stay in the hobby!) They were not in the fandom soon enough. the only people who should have toys of old characters are the old guard fans, or the new guys who have eBay money or the guys who are willing to buy trash from flea markets.

Not trying to sound too harsh, but yeah: that's exactly what I'm saying. Earlier this year, I decided I wanted Megaplex. I didn't stamp my feet and cry about Hasbro not having made a new Megaplex since 1996, I didn't bitch about the old one being the only option (aside from the BotCon toy, which is what prompted this in the first place) and not being perfect enough so they needed to make a brand-new one. I just went on eBay and bought a fucking Megaplex.

Which ran you all of like, $5. Megaplex is a terrible example of this because he has no media backing at all anywhere and that's why nobody really wants him and why his toy is still dirt cheap. The real problem with this line of thought is that it's so insular and doesn't allow new people into the fandom. New fans might show up for Prime or Bayformers but might actually stay around for shit like BW or BM or hell, even G1 or RID. And they're going to want toys of those characters and they aren't going to want to pay an arm and leg for them which at this point many of the show characters cost. Popular characters like Blackarachnia still go for quite a bit which will often price out new fans. Which brings me to my next rebuttal...

BWprowl wrote:Why would 'new' fans even want toys of Waspinator and Rattrap anyway? When was the last time they appeared in those designs on TV? The only reason they're showing up in the comics now is because Hasbro wanted IDW to advertise the new toys they're making purely to appeal to nostalgic 90's kids who are flustered over their original Rattrap and Waspinator toys not being perfect.

So it's ok to tell Anderson that he can always go back and read old comic books just because he doesn't like the new ones but it's not ok for new Transfans to go back and watch old shows just because they're not on anymore? That doesn't make any sense. Because new shit isn't what new fans are limited to. Should I just forget about Headmasters or Victory just because they were made decades ago? Or what about BW Neo or BW II? Oh well, that was nearly two decades ago in a country half way around the globe so fuck me if I have an interest right? Bullshit. The fact that the show isn't on anymore doesn't erase it's existence. People can still go back and watch old series and are going to want the toys that go with those series. And since those series had a significant impact on the franchise as a whole there's no reason why Hasbro shouldn't go back and revisit them sometimes.

BWprowl wrote:

And, hey, you know what? They should have kept Thundercracker exclusive too! If somebody did not have the money to go to BotCon 2007, they clearly did not deserve (and probably did not even really want) Thundercracker, am I right?

Given that I was one of the people back in the day who was saying it was ludicrous for people to be complaining about the exclusivity of a toy that was just a repaint as a dude who hadn't been relevent in decades, I'm not sure what you expect my answer to be on this one. You already got a dang transforming jet, who cares how blue it is?

At least G1 toys like Thundercracker gain slightly more by being remade. Rattrap gets what, a smaller backpack, cheaper plastic, twice the price, and a shitty Barber comic packed in with it?

And this makes even less sense. In a line where the difference between characters is 90% determined by a difference in color it's ridiculous to say "Oh you got the white one so why do you need the blue one?" That's like saying "You've already got Data, why do you need Worf?" Because they're completely different characters!

Shockwave wrote:Which ran you all of like, $5. Megaplex is a terrible example of this because he has no media backing at all anywhere and that's why nobody really wants him and why his toy is still dirt cheap. The real problem with this line of thought is that it's so insular and doesn't allow new people into the fandom. New fans might show up for Prime or Bayformers but might actually stay around for shit like BW or BM or hell, even G1 or RID. And they're going to want toys of those characters and they aren't going to want to pay an arm and leg for them which at this point many of the show characters cost. Popular characters like Blackarachnia still go for quite a bit which will often price out new fans. Which brings me to my next rebuttal...

Megaplex cost me $14, but anyway, the train of thought you bring here is a ridiculous one, since it basically says "All characters who were ever represented in the media must have a toy out at all times so any new fans can always get them". Not only is that, y'know, impossible, it means that any chance of *new* characters and concepts in the franchise would eventually be entirely smothered out by the need to constantly have old characters remade and updated and on the shelves.

Which is about what's going on with the franchise now anyway, but still.

So it's ok to tell Anderson that he can always go back and read old comic books just because he doesn't like the new ones but it's not ok for new Transfans to go back and watch old shows just because they're not on anymore? That doesn't make any sense. Because new shit isn't what new fans are limited to. Should I just forget about Headmasters or Victory just because they were made decades ago? Or what about BW Neo or BW II? Oh well, that was nearly two decades ago in a country half way around the globe so fuck me if I have an interest right? Bullshit. The fact that the show isn't on anymore doesn't erase it's existence. People can still go back and watch old series and are going to want the toys that go with those series. And since those series had a significant impact on the franchise as a whole there's no reason why Hasbro shouldn't go back and revisit them sometimes.

Hey, by all means, go back and enjoy the old media. I finally watched Masterforce twenty years after it came out, and I absolutely love it. The point is, just because I only got around to watching that show so long after it came out, that doesn't mean I feel Hasbro is obligated to put out new versions of God Ginrai and Lander and Cancer and so forth. I *understand* in that situation that I was late to the party, that I missed out on the toys, so now I pay the "You missed out on it" tax if I want any of them. Thinking that there needs to be a slightly updated version of the same characters on the shelves at any given moment is the logic that drives Hasbro to ship cases and cases of Bumblebees to stores constantly.

Going off your Star Trek examples, is Playmates obligated to keep TNG and DS9 figures on store shelves for all eternity because new fans might come in and watch those shows at any given moment? Of course not, that's ridiculous.

And this makes even less sense. In a line where the difference between characters is 90% determined by a difference in color it's ridiculous to say "Oh you got the white one so why do you need the blue one?" That's like saying "You've already got Data, why do you need Worf?" Because they're completely different characters!

I don't know if I agree with the sentiment that characters are that heavily determined by color, unless you're arguing that Starscream is 90% the same as Optimus Prime. My point was more that Hasbro had at least gotten the TOY out, and that since we didn't know if Classics was going to continue at all at the time, making Thundercracker exclusive was an acceptable compromise. This was exacerbated by the fact that AHM hadn't happened at that point yet, so Thundercracker didn't seem like too big a loss, as far as characters go, to me.

BWprowl wrote:

Shockwave wrote:Which ran you all of like, $5. Megaplex is a terrible example of this because he has no media backing at all anywhere and that's why nobody really wants him and why his toy is still dirt cheap. The real problem with this line of thought is that it's so insular and doesn't allow new people into the fandom. New fans might show up for Prime or Bayformers but might actually stay around for shit like BW or BM or hell, even G1 or RID. And they're going to want toys of those characters and they aren't going to want to pay an arm and leg for them which at this point many of the show characters cost. Popular characters like Blackarachnia still go for quite a bit which will often price out new fans. Which brings me to my next rebuttal...

Megaplex cost me $14, but anyway, the train of thought you bring here is a ridiculous one, since it basically says "All characters who were ever represented in the media must have a toy out at all times so any new fans can always get them". Not only is that, y'know, impossible, it means that any chance of *new* characters and concepts in the franchise would eventually be entirely smothered out by the need to constantly have old characters remade and updated and on the shelves.

Which is about what's going on with the franchise now anyway, but still.

So it's ok to tell Anderson that he can always go back and read old comic books just because he doesn't like the new ones but it's not ok for new Transfans to go back and watch old shows just because they're not on anymore? That doesn't make any sense. Because new shit isn't what new fans are limited to. Should I just forget about Headmasters or Victory just because they were made decades ago? Or what about BW Neo or BW II? Oh well, that was nearly two decades ago in a country half way around the globe so fuck me if I have an interest right? Bullshit. The fact that the show isn't on anymore doesn't erase it's existence. People can still go back and watch old series and are going to want the toys that go with those series. And since those series had a significant impact on the franchise as a whole there's no reason why Hasbro shouldn't go back and revisit them sometimes.

Hey, by all means, go back and enjoy the old media. I finally watched Masterforce twenty years after it came out, and I absolutely love it. The point is, just because I only got around to watching that show so long after it came out, that doesn't mean I feel Hasbro is obligated to put out new versions of God Ginrai and Lander and Cancer and so forth. I *understand* in that situation that I was late to the party, that I missed out on the toys, so now I pay the "You missed out on it" tax if I want any of them. Thinking that there needs to be a slightly updated version of the same characters on the shelves at any given moment is the logic that drives Hasbro to ship cases and cases of Bumblebees to stores constantly.

Going off your Star Trek examples, is Playmates obligated to keep TNG and DS9 figures on store shelves for all eternity because new fans might come in and watch those shows at any given moment? Of course not, that's ridiculous.

And this makes even less sense. In a line where the difference between characters is 90% determined by a difference in color it's ridiculous to say "Oh you got the white one so why do you need the blue one?" That's like saying "You've already got Data, why do you need Worf?" Because they're completely different characters!

I don't know if I agree with the sentiment that characters are that heavily determined by color, unless you're arguing that Starscream is 90% the same as Optimus Prime. My point was more that Hasbro had at least gotten the TOY out, and that since we didn't know if Classics was going to continue at all at the time, making Thundercracker exclusive was an acceptable compromise. This was exacerbated by the fact that AHM hadn't happened at that point yet, so Thundercracker didn't seem like too big a loss, as far as characters go, to me.

Hasbro/Takara doesn't need to keep making repeative homage toys for their current core cast like they've been repeatedly doing for the past 5+ years now. Doing this makes the TF toy sales perform poorly in stores,Key example is the DOTM toy line.

You can't compare Star trek toys with TF toys. Because the Star trek brand is not as high toy driven like the TF brand is. The star trek brand caters more to adults & less towards kids,which is the exact opposite of what the TF brand does. The TF toy brand for the past decade made leaps & bounds more money in toy sales than the Star trek toys.

The world doesn't need hundreds of bumblebee toys,or dozens of jazz toys,or dozens of ratchet toys or hundreds of megatron or hundreds of optimus toys. With thousands of TF character toys in existance,Hasbro needs to seriously rotate out the current core cast with other core cast to give every older G-1 character toy a chance at getting more homage toys. Examples:
1- Rotate Bulkhead out with Ironhide roadbuster.
2- Rotate megatron out with galvatron
3- Rotate arcee out with Elita-one
4- Rotate starscream out with Cyclonus or another seeker persona.
5- rotate ratchet out with perceptor or first aid
6- Rotate bumblebee out with hotrod or hotshot or cheetor.

Those exclusive Japanese TF character toys are epic pure awesome. They were iconic,well made & cost hundreds/thousands on ebay,the demand is clearly their for them. Instead of Hasbro/Takara giving the world more repeative core cast character homages or newly designed new persona toys,why not do more homages for the exclusive G-1 character toys from headmasters,masterforce,Victory,Zone,Battle stars,etc---> The big brutes,with high command ranks can easily squeeze into any current TF media as second in command positions or brute force guys like Armada Tidalwave was.

If I was in charge of Hasbro/Takara,I would of had Masterpiece & Classics TF toy versions for almost all the Exclusive Japanese TF toys like,Deathsaurus,Victoryleo,Starsabre,Overlord,Dialutas,etc..

BWprowl wrote:Megaplex cost me $14, but anyway, the train of thought you bring here is a ridiculous one, since it basically says "All characters who were ever represented in the media must have a toy out at all times so any new fans can always get them".

That's not what I was saying at all. I'm not arguing that Hasbro should always have new updated versions of every character ever, but what I am saying is that when it does happen it's not the affront to the franchise that you seem to think it is. It's Hasbro's way of tossing a bone to new fans of previous iterations while honoring those iterations at the same time. And besides, if it means we get awesome toys out of it, I don't care what genre of TF they update.

BWprowl wrote:Which is about what's going on with the franchise now anyway, but still.

I was going to point out all of the new characters we've gotten since Animated, but I actually do kind of agree. Sort of.

BWprowl wrote:Hey, by all means, go back and enjoy the old media. I finally watched Masterforce twenty years after it came out, and I absolutely love it. The point is, just because I only got around to watching that show so long after it came out, that doesn't mean I feel Hasbro is obligated to put out new versions of God Ginrai and Lander and Cancer and so forth.

I don't feel that they're obligated either, and again, that's not what I was saying. No, they're not obligated, but if they do, I'll be damned happy about it and not bitching that there should be something completely different just because "it's already been done".

BWprowl wrote:Thinking that there needs to be a slightly updated version of the same characters on the shelves at any given moment is the logic that drives Hasbro to ship cases and cases of Bumblebees to stores constantly.

Ok, there's two things wrong with this statement: 1. They're not updated versions of the same characters, they're different toys of the same version of the same characters like having 20 versions of Prime Bumblebee and B. They logic that drives Hasbro is the fact that kids and parents keep buying that crap.

BWprowl wrote:Going off your Star Trek examples, is Playmates obligated to keep TNG and DS9 figures on store shelves for all eternity because new fans might come in and watch those shows at any given moment? Of course not, that's ridiculous.

No, Playmates should quit making Star Trek figures because they make shitty figures (which, actually they already have), but that's beside the point. This had nothing to do with my example which you also missed the point of as I'll elaborate below:

BWprowl wrote:I don't know if I agree with the sentiment that characters are that heavily determined by color, unless you're arguing that Starscream is 90% the same as Optimus Prime.

No, this is not what I'm arguing. Visually speaking, how do you tell Starscream and Thundercracker apart? They're the same mold, same parts, so what's the only identifying factor in determining which one you're looking at? Color. And that's it. Yes, most of the character differences ARE determined by color because Starscream is a completely separate unrelated character to Skywarp who is completely separate and unrelated to Thundercracker but the only thing on the toys that differentiates them IS color. And this isn't limited to the jets, Sideswipe, Red Alert are the same mold but only differentiated by color as are Prowl, Bluestreak and Smokescreen, as are Ratchet and Ironhide as are Trailbreaker and Hoist as are Frenzy and Rumble... I mean if we really look at the original '84 line up of Transformers, how many original molds are there? For the Decepticons, 6. And yet they got 10 characters out of that. For the Autobots, it's 10, yet they got 17 characters out of it. Ok, so maybe that's not "90%", but it's a lot and makes color differentiation pretty important to the line. So the Star Trek example, which I'll admit is a pretty bad example, is like saying that you don't need Worf because you already have Data and why would you need two guys in yellow shirts.

BWprowl wrote:My point was more that Hasbro had at least gotten the TOY out, and that since we didn't know if Classics was going to continue at all at the time, making Thundercracker exclusive was an acceptable compromise. This was exacerbated by the fact that AHM hadn't happened at that point yet, so Thundercracker didn't seem like too big a loss, as far as characters go, to me.

See now THIS makes sense and is by far the most logical argument I've read in favor of the exclusivity. I do disagree about it being "too big a loss" but that's mostly because we have different perspectives of how important he is as a character. I honestly think if people had just said this back when Thundergate happened it wouldn't have been a big deal. Or as big anyway.

A too-big backpack is no reason to waste time and resources making a whole-new figure of a character from a show that's been off the air for over a decade and a half.

I'd like to point out that this is an anniversary line. I mean, remember 2007 and GI Joes' anniversary line?

Onslaught Six wrote:

A too-big backpack is no reason to waste time and resources making a whole-new figure of a character from a show that's been off the air for over a decade and a half.

I'd like to point out that this is an anniversary line. I mean, remember 2007 and GI Joes' anniversary line?

From my point of view Hasbro is failing at the 30th TF anniversary toy line. Because their is more to Transformers than 1984-1985.
Doing those IDW inspired TF character toys was a HUGE MISTAKE. Doing homages in the wrong size scale is a another mistake. At the very least that IDW Stealth bomber/whatever toy might have been a decent toy had it been done at the voyager,ultra or leader toy size classes.

I'm actually sick & tired of the Classics/Generations toy lines. because every time the line goes on a hiatus break & returns 75% of the line is chock full of the same set of core characters Hasbro is overly obsessed with like Optimus,Megaton,Starscream+his seekers repaints,Bumblebee,Soundwave.

Is it really so hard for Hasbro to release homage TF toys in the proper size classes. and give fans homages beyond the current core cast & beyond 1986.

Fans want the exclusive Japanse G-1 TF characters because the original cost over hundreds/thousands on the Secondary market. Yet Hasbro refuses to create homage toys for these characters. instead we get a billion bumblebees.

My point was more that Hasbro had at least gotten the TOY out, and that since we didn't know if Classics was going to continue at all at the time, making Thundercracker exclusive was an acceptable compromise. This was exacerbated by the fact that AHM hadn't happened at that point yet, so Thundercracker didn't seem like too big a loss, as far as characters go, to me.

Thundercracker, Skywart and Starscream as kind of a set. They are three closely associated characters. It makes sense for people to want all 3 at once.

The world doesn't need hundreds of bumblebee toys,or dozens of jazz toys,or dozens of ratchet toys or hundreds of megatron or hundreds of optimus toys. With thousands of TF character toys in existance,Hasbro needs to seriously rotate out the current core cast with other core cast to give every older G-1 character toy a chance at getting more homage toys.

This makes sense. Even allowing for the fact that Hasbro has a fixation on Bumblebee, there is no reason not to rotate some characters in and out of the toy line. Prowl could be rotated out with Jazz or Ironhide every couple of years, and it would still be possible to have modern toys of all 3 at about the same time.

Going off your Star Trek examples, is Playmates obligated to keep TNG and DS9 figures on store shelves for all eternity because new fans might come in and watch those shows at any given moment? Of course not, that's ridiculous.

But, you have also argued that "the old toy is good enough", even when the old toy is....kind of crap. That old 90s Rattrap figure is junk. End of story.

There has never been a legitimately good toy made of Rattrap, despite 3 sets of tooling and several recolours.

I honestly think if people had just said this back when Thundergate happened it wouldn't have been a big deal.

That was the common arguement in '07.

Most people assumed that the only way that Thundercracker would have come out was through Fun Publications. But, they were (rightly) annoyed that Hasbro did not make a mass release Thundercracker, effectively leaving the "set of 3 Seekers" incomplete.

Given that I was one of the people back in the day who was saying it was ludicrous for people to be complaining about the exclusivity of a toy that was just a repaint as a dude who hadn't been relevent in decades, I'm not sure what you expect my answer to be on this one. You already got a dang transforming jet, who cares how blue it is?

Because they wanted Thundercracker, not Starscream. Or, more accurately, they wanted Thundercracker along with Starscream and Skywarp. They wanted the set. (And, at that point, good G1 Thundercracker toys were all but non-existent. The G1 toy is a piece of shit. The "Robot Masters" toy was exclusive in Japan, so that was not a practical option for most fans. I had the PVC, from 5 years earlier, and that was my Thundercracker. A PVC should not be the best option.)

Dominic wrote:Thundercracker, Skywart and Starscream as kind of a set. They are three closely associated characters. It makes sense for people to want all 3 at once.

This is one reason I've always kind of hated the Seekers, since it basically leads into the double standard of 'I hate it when Hasbro produces too many repaints, unless they're repaints of Starscream'. Just because Thundercracker and Skywarp arose out of Hasbro's laziness when you were a kid doesn't make them 'more important' than the repaints that arise from laziness now.

This makes sense. Even allowing for the fact that Hasbro has a fixation on Bumblebee, there is no reason not to rotate some characters in and out of the toy line. Prowl could be rotated out with Jazz or Ironhide every couple of years, and it would still be possible to have modern toys of all 3 at about the same time.

Aside from the fact that Prowl and Jazz and Ironhide all have modern toys *already*, it's bonkers to think that characters should be 'rotated out' on a timed basis. No one talked about nonsense like 'rotating' particular characters from BW through the UT; you got maybe two Hot Shots per year because he was a main character in a series that had a continuity throughout it, and he got an upgrade once per show, and then you would be LUCKY if new toys were homages to guys like G1 Soundwave or Wheeljack. It was great, since it kept the line fresh with variety, you could never be sure what sort of thing was around the corner, as opposed to now when the primary question of new toys boils down to 'What old toys will they get around to remaking next?'

But, you have also argued that "the old toy is good enough", even when the old toy is....kind of crap. That old 90s Rattrap figure is junk. End of story.

There has never been a legitimately good toy made of Rattrap, despite 3 sets of tooling and several recolours.

...in your opinion. Rattrap has full articulation using effective ball joints across his entire robot mode, and looks plenty like the show. Your primary argument for him sucking is that his backpack is too big. Boo fucking hoo. Considering the main fan-audience gobbling up all these redundant G1-reimaginings are the same people that argued for years that the G1 toys were somehow better than the BW toys by virtue of being 'good enough' representations of the characters that *they* grew up with, they've got no place saying there's a reason for the existence of marginally-better versions of toys like Waspinator and Rattrap.

Just because Thundercracker and Skywarp arose out of Hasbro's laziness when you were a kid doesn't make them 'more important' than the repaints that arise from laziness now.

Except that Thundercracker and Skywarp have actually done stuff, unlike "non-show same-character recolour of ______________" or "non-screen character recolour of ________________". There is a difference, and you are creatively ignoring it.

Aside from the fact that Prowl and Jazz and Ironhide all have modern toys *already*, it's bonkers to think that characters should be 'rotated out' on a timed basis. No one talked about nonsense like 'rotating' particular characters from BW through the UT;

Jazz has not had a *good* toy in how many years? Prowl came out over 5 years ago, and Ironhide not long after. (And, those were just examples.) The point is that there are plenty of characters that could stand to get updated toys, and in some cases have never been made as good toys. (Until '09 or so, Ironhide was the main example of that principle.)

Considering the main fan-audience gobbling up all these redundant G1-reimaginings are the same people that argued for years that the G1 toys were somehow better than the BW toys by virtue of being 'good enough' representations of the characters that *they* grew up with, they've got no place saying there's a reason for the existence of marginally-better versions of toys like Waspinator and Rattrap.

Actually, most of those GeeWunners are not buying any toys because they are happy with three decade old junk.

The people who are buying the new toys of old characters tend to be like me, either not having toys of said characters at all or wanting better toys of said characters. If I liked Cheetor, I would still want a good toy of Cheetor that looked like the show. (That arguably happened with the Transmetal figure and during "Beast Machines", but those figure still had significant flaws and deviations from the show.)

Do you know how many years I waited for something that resembled a good Ironhide? I still want an Ironhide that looks like Casey Coller's illustrations of the character. But, after 25+ years of waiting for an acceptable Ironhide, the '09 figure is good enough for now.


Dom

BWprowl wrote:

Dominic wrote:Thundercracker, Skywart and Starscream as kind of a set. They are three closely associated characters. It makes sense for people to want all 3 at once.

This is one reason I've always kind of hated the Seekers, since it basically leads into the double standard of 'I hate it when Hasbro produces too many repaints, unless they're repaints of Starscream'. Just because Thundercracker and Skywarp arose out of Hasbro's laziness when you were a kid doesn't make them 'more important' than the repaints that arise from laziness now.

I can explain this. Aaaaannd, I know how much you *really* hate it when some old guy pulls the "you weren't there card" but the difference in perspective is what's at play here. In 1984, you had 10 Decepticons. That's it, 10. So if you didn't have the repaints of Starscream, your Decepticons were horribly outnumbered. Then, later in 1985 when a lot more characters were introduced, the 84 lot seemed to be thought of as the "senior officers" of the Decepticons, which still made them more important or at least higher ranked than half the army. That's a different concept than say, complaining that Skullgrin and Straxus, two characters who were never repaints of each other or had any connection to each other at all are now repaints of each other. FWIW, I never complain about such things, but I can see the difference.

But, your perspective is justifiably different because by the time you got into the franchise there were already hundreds of characters on both sides to choose from so you weren't limited to just the ten Decepticons and Skywarp and Thundercracker had kind of fallen into obscurity at that point, so your "senior officers" were different so there's less attachment to the 84 characters.

BWprowl wrote:Rattrap has full articulation using effective ball joints across his entire robot mode, and looks plenty like the show. Your primary argument for him sucking is that his backpack is too big. Boo fucking hoo.

I dunno if I'd say "full" articulation but I agree with this. The BW toys certainly had WAY better articulation than the G1 guys.

BWprowl wrote:Considering the main fan-audience gobbling up all these redundant G1-reimaginings are the same people that argued for years that the G1 toys were somehow better than the BW toys by virtue of being 'good enough' representations of the characters that *they* grew up with, they've got no place saying there's a reason for the existence of marginally-better versions of toys like Waspinator and Rattrap.

Has anyone ever actually said that?