TF Views

Onslaught Six wrote:

Dominic wrote:Do it by the numbers. That is how Hasbro is doing it. And, we want there to be a consistent method to counting. If you have to break a tie, toss a coin.

I'd say put it to a vote.

I'll give it a shot, but it's late in the game and may not help break the ties we currently have. My post above this has the voting system. Luckily, both current ties can be broken with existing data, I just would have to decide on the data points.

As for Megatron/Galvatron and Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime...

There's a distinct difference, in this: Hot Rod only really exists to be a contrast to Rodimus Prime. Hot Rod only exists so he can be Rodimus Prime Before Rodimus Prime. Rodimus Prime's entire 'character' relies mostly on the fact that he Used To Be Hot Rod. Galvatron, on the other hand, doesn't really need that--at least in my opinion. I hear "Galvatron" and I think three things--he's the Decepticon leader, he's from the future, and he's batshit crazy. IDW's version kind of *still* manages to violate a good chunk of those "rules" but I let it slide because IDW does a lot of things differently.

I think what it comes down to is, how much can you separate the "upgraded" character from the original source? Rodimus Prime pretty much can't exist without once having been Hot Rod--you have *never* seen the two standing around together, with disparate origins. Galvatron, though, has been a separate guy in at least one mainstream G1 continuity, and in at least one Marvel timeline he's not even directly created from Megatron, but from the merged Straxus-Megatron clone, arguably making him, at the very least, a separate guy from The Dude Who Is Megatron.

That seems like splitting hairs over quibbles. If we take G1 cartoon and Marvel comic Galvatron as a character, it's not different from your Rodimus argument -- only the IDW universe makes your argument. I can tell you that TFU.info certainly takes Galvatron as a Megatron entry, so from the toy perspective, I think it's safe to say there's no question who the character is.

I have problems letting the UT set precedent for this kind of thing because many times there were very disparate portrayls. Let's just look at Armada Thundercracker, for example. In his techspec, profile book and the comics (if he was even in them?) he was a totally separate guy, but in the cartoon Starscream got upgraded to his colours...and said "I look like Thundercracker!" but was still called Starscream through the entire series. The same thing with Tidal Wave and Mirage, for example--only the cartoon made Tidal Wave become Mirage, the techspecs said nothing about it and the comic was cancelled. Statements from Hasbro even outright 'say' that Mirage was supposed to be a different guy, but communication problems between Hasbro and Takara led to him becoming Mirage in the show.

Wow, that's worse than I even knew.

Dominic wrote:Shockwave is right. "Target: 2006" settles it.

Yeah, I didn't know about that one, it does seem to put it right in its place.

Sorry, misunderstood you.

Well, I would say "whatever screws the Beast Wars characters".

But, nobody is going to actually do that....

For us to use "whatever screws BW characters" would be identically wrong to other organizations pushing BW, I don't want to become less ethical simply to counter someone else's unethical choice.

I would say give it to the character that appears more on lists than higher on lists if that is a differentiating factor. Yes, people might really like the character that is higher on their list. But, a character showing up on more lists, (regardless of order), shows how many people like that character to begin with.

Thanks for the input. I was leaning more that way as well, especially after last year's Erector debacle - if we're going to value a group's vote, we shouldn't let a singular enthusiastic vote spoil that.

Onslaught Six wrote:If there's a dispute, put it to a vote. For example, if Blackarachnia and Barricade have the same "amount" of votes, I would certainly pick Barricade over her. But switch her out for, say, Prowl, and I might have a different opinion.

I have done so, but the short timing we have to turn this in makes it rough to lay it all on that. I'll take the tiebuster votes make a voice, if it isn't definitive then I'll go with the greater votes over higher individual votes stand as our method.

Also, our own decision on Galvatron being Megatron or not is almost moot as it really depends on what Hasbro says.

Our question wasn't Megs/Galvs, that was an example I was using. The question was Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime which appears to be moot at this point since he's running in the middle of the pack.

I would go back and view Megatron's winning video, and see if Galvatron--any Galvatron--turns up in it.

Good idea. The second thing in the video is Megatron being scanned for rebuilding, but they could have just chosen it for a visual cue, as the Galvatron portion isn't shown. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6XUPpq-iHc
OH! But let's complicate matters, Hasbro put Dinobot II into the Dinobot HOF video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ql-4Mp_ ... ure=fvwrel That's not even the same f'ing guy!
Hey, here's another one, Shockwave, hello Shockblast: http://www.youtube.com/user/transformer ... bUN6fb_mos

JediTricks wrote:Ok, tiebreaker time! Let's try to break the 2 ties we currently have with a vote.

Put these 4 in order of preference:

...
Remember, this must be an ORDERED list of preference between those 4 characters.

No guarantee this data will be used or even help, but I'll give it a shot.

Here's mine:

1. Prowl
2. Mirage
3. Rhinox
4. Wheeljack

Ah, hell, man, this is a tough one. I like all those guys.

1. Wheeljack
2. Prowl
3. Mirage
4. Rhinox

Huh, I almost expected that Rhinox would do better on my list.

I'd have to say...

1. Rhinox
2. Wheeljack
3. Mirage
4. Prowl

138 Scourge wrote:Ah, hell, man, this is a tough one. I like all those guys.

1. Wheeljack
2. Prowl
3. Mirage
4. Rhinox

Huh, I almost expected that Rhinox would do better on my list.

It's not shameful to come in 4th in that company.


Oh man, I hope we get a few more votes one way or the other, Sparky's votes just caused 2 of the tied characters to re-tie.

Prowl
Wheeljack
Mirage
Rhinox

I got rhino fever!

1. Rhinox
2. Wheeljack
3. Prowl
4. Mirage

Prowl
Rhinox
Wheeljack
Mirage

JediTricks wrote:That seems like splitting hairs over quibbles. If we take G1 cartoon and Marvel comic Galvatron as a character, it's not different from your Rodimus argument -- only the IDW universe makes your argument. I can tell you that TFU.info certainly takes Galvatron as a Megatron entry, so from the toy perspective, I think it's safe to say there's no question who the character is.

And yet, TFWiki (an equally "reputable" source--for the record, I hate them both) has not just a separate article for G1 Galvatron In General, but also Galvatron II!

As it is, the only way we'll ever know is if someone asks Hasbro. Don't you have that kind of clout? Can't you ask them?

Also, our own decision on Galvatron being Megatron or not is almost moot as it really depends on what Hasbro says.

Our question wasn't Megs/Galvs, that was an example I was using. The question was Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime which appears to be moot at this point since he's running in the middle of the pack.[/quote]

See, that's the thing, Hot Rod and Rodimus are very clearly the same guy, whereas Galvatron has a subtle amount of confusion going on and in at least one continuity is a separate guy. I would also argue design elements and colours on this--there's no way, even with the thousands of Transformers who look kind of similar to each other, that you're going to see Hot Rod and Rodimus Prime together and 'not' think they're the same guy. Megatron and Galvatron might look sort of similar, but have enough visual differences that you could see the both of them and easily assume they aren't intended to be the same guy.

I would go back and view Megatron's winning video, and see if Galvatron--any Galvatron--turns up in it.

Good idea. The second thing in the video is Megatron being scanned for rebuilding, but they could have just chosen it for a visual cue, as the Galvatron portion isn't shown. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6XUPpq-iHc
OH! But let's complicate matters, Hasbro put Dinobot II into the Dinobot HOF video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ql-4Mp_ ... ure=fvwrel That's not even the same f'ing guy!
Hey, here's another one, Shockwave, hello Shockblast: http://www.youtube.com/user/transformer ... bUN6fb_mos

[/quote]

Shockblast was only named as such because of Trademark BS, we all know that--Alternators Shockblast proves that, I'd say. Which just means Energon "Shockwave" is an alt-universe equivalent to G1 Shockwave. And as we've seen, these things are basically for Transformers characters 'across all continuities.' G1 Megatron is, for all intents and purposes, the same character as UT Megatron, Animated Megatron, Movie Megatron, and Prime Megatron...because they're all bigass dudes with lots of guns who are Decepticon supreme leaders (and in most cases, founders).

Dinobot...I never liked this whole BS "Dinobot II isn't actually Dinobot" thing. In fact, "Dinobot 2" is never said anywhere with the show, it's fanon crap. I don't know if they ever say TM2 Dinobot has the original's memories downloaded into him or not (Obviously they would be from a copy Megatron had before Dinobot turned on him, since Rattrap spends the entirety of Dark Glass trying to upload a more recent copy to Dinobot) and, if nothing else, in his final moments he definitely makes contact or some shit with his "former self" as evidenced by him turning on Megs at the end and yelling HONOOOUUURRRRR. And even then, "Dinobot II" is clearly meant to EVOKE Dinobot--he's got the same face and voice, and turns into (mostly) the same thing, and is...named Dinobot--which I think makes him fall under the same thing as Shockblast.

Now, here's the thing, you COULD make a case if, say, someone like Prowl or Mirage made it in. There've been lots of guys named Mirage and Prowl over the years who *aren't* really intended to be the same guy evocatively. Energon Prowl really doesn't have anything in common with G1 Prowl, for example--not in personality OR design. On the other hand, Hasbro might lump them in anyway as having the same name and being all, "Fuck it," because Energon Prowl is pretty damn unlikely to ever be nominated for anything other than "Most Forgettable."

JediTricks wrote:

Sorry, misunderstood you.

Well, I would say "whatever screws the Beast Wars characters".

But, nobody is going to actually do that....

For us to use "whatever screws BW characters" would be identically wrong to other organizations pushing BW, I don't want to become less ethical simply to counter someone else's unethical choice.

Just ignore it JT, Dom forgets that he doesn't actually Beast Wars, what he really hates are Beast Wars FANS. Seriously Dom, stop punishing the franchise for the actions of the fanbase.