TF Views

Dominic wrote:As far as the characters being what they should be goes, the idea is that they are being written as those characters would reasonably be written in a given scenario.

The way a character is "meant to be" implies how the character is meant to be portrayed regardless of the scenario. To get a realistic view of how a character is "meant to be" though, you need to see the character under their normal circumstances, not in an extreme situation they have a difficult time handling mentally and/or physically.

I'd have to disagree. How we face the extraordinary shows our personality at least as much if not more than the usual humdrum day to day.

Shockwave wrote:I'd have to disagree. How we face the extraordinary shows our personality at least as much if not more than the usual humdrum day to day.

I don't agree. Depending on how they cope or don't cope with an extraordinary situation, it tends to have an effect on how they'd normally act. Take Ironhide for example. Normally he's a bit hot headed, but under normal circumstances, he isn't the type to go off and attack one of his own based on nothing more than suspicion. He's normally got more self control than that. But he isn't coping with this extraordinary situation, so he doesn't act like he normally would and ends up beating up Mirage for no reason.

Sparky Prime wrote:I don't agree. Depending on how they cope or don't cope with an extraordinary situation, it tends to have an effect on how they'd normally act. Take Ironhide for example. Normally he's a bit hot headed, but under normal circumstances, he isn't the type to go off and attack one of his own based on nothing more than suspicion. He's normally got more self control than that. But he isn't coping with this extraordinary situation, so he doesn't act like he normally would and ends up beating up Mirage for no reason.

Well, actually, now that I'm rereading the last couple of posts, you really are agreeing with me. Sort of. It's the extraordinary situations that test the true measure of anyone's character, be they real or in a comic. This was very well illustrated both ways, positive and negative, in DW's Volume 1 when they showed humans looting and running and looking out for themselves and again when Prime illustrates that they also band together and help each other out, sometimes at the risk of their own lives. This was also very well illustrated throughout AHM. My point is that showing characters in an extraordinary situation gives us much better character development than "Look, here's Ironhide. He's tough and kicks ass." Well as it turns out, mentally speaking he doesn't really live up to his name. We never would have seen that if the character hadn't been placed into that extreme of a situation. So, yes, you're right, unusual situations do have an effect on how they'd normally act. Or more accurately, it shows how they'd normally act in that situation.

Incidently, in rereading AHM I found the answer you asked in regards to why the Decepticons were on Earth and not somewhere else. Earth was the last Autobot outpost in the galaxy. Once Megatron had kicked them off planet, Decepticons everywhere destroyed all the Autobot outposts rendering the Autobot army all but useless. So, yeah, they actually weren't JUST on Earth, but were everywhere else as well. Now, if you're an evil robot dictator and you've for all intents and purposes taken over the galaxy, why are you going to hide again? Also, Megs clearly states that his reason for letting the Decepticons run rampant on Earth was to weed out the unwanted elements of his ideal Decepticon Army. Elements that he had needed up till that point but were no longer necessary. In fact, now that I think about it, I suspect that AHM might have IDW showing just the events on Earth and those that directly related to them while the Spotlights might be to show what was going on everywhere else.

Shockwave wrote:It's the extraordinary situations that test the true measure of anyone's character, be they real or in a comic.

See, that right there is what I don't agree with. I don't believe just being in an extraordinary situation will necessarily create an accurate test of the "true" measure of one's character. How one approaches any given situation I believe can easily change with various circumstances and what their experiences may be. Back to Ironhide, clearly he's a hot head, but is it accurate to say he normally lacks the self control to keep that temper in check? Normally, even in extreme situations, I'd have to say he actually usually does a pretty good job of keeping his temper in check, but this one time, he let it get the better of him.

Incidently, in rereading AHM I found the answer you asked in regards to why the Decepticons were on Earth and not somewhere else. Earth was the last Autobot outpost in the galaxy. Once Megatron had kicked them off planet, Decepticons everywhere destroyed all the Autobot outposts rendering the Autobot army all but useless. So, yeah, they actually weren't JUST on Earth, but were everywhere else as well.

That's not actually what my question was referring to. No, I know that a great deal of the Decepticon army was elsewhere fighting other Autobot outposts across the universe. Rather, my question was more about, why did Megatron stay on Earth? With the Autobots gone, kicked completely off the planet and the humans offering no challenge, what was the point of staying there if he wasn't going to address the energon that made the planet of interest to him in the first place? Clearly the Decepticons he had with him didn't have enough to do, so couldn't he send them to help some other groups deal with the other Autobots or something, anything else? He didn't need them all there to finish conquering the Earth. Even if Megs was trying to weed out the unwanted elements, how was random violence on Earth supposed to accomplish that?

Megs also mentioned his reasons for sticking around was that he was waiting for Starscream to make up his mind on where he stood, which to me is actually the most plausible of reasons Megatron gave. Although I still think he could have just as easily done that elsewhere, or at least sent some of the Decepticons on Earth elsewhere, I think that it makes some sense that by making it seem like he was directionless after immediately defeating the Autobots would force Starscream to make a decision.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Shockwave wrote:It's the extraordinary situations that test the true measure of anyone's character, be they real or in a comic.

See, that right there is what I don't agree with. I don't believe just being in an extraordinary situation will necessarily create an accurate test of the "true" measure of one's character. How one approaches any given situation I believe can easily change with various circumstances and what their experiences may be. Back to Ironhide, clearly he's a hot head, but is it accurate to say he normally lacks the self control to keep that temper in check? Normally, even in extreme situations, I'd have to say he actually usually does a pretty good job of keeping his temper in check, but this one time, he let it get the better of him.

My contention is that the "true" test of someone's character isn't REALLY tested in the usual ho hum 9-5. On an average day, I get up, go to work, come home and that's about it. Usually, my "character" isn't really tested. It's the unusual, the extraordinary and the sometimes terrible that really tests people's moral fiber and the strength of their character. Sure, it changes people, you're at least right about that. After all, if such circumstances didn't change people, we'd never learn and grow. For any given situation, be it normal or unusual, there are several different possible ways to react. Which reaction someone goes with is what shows their character.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Incidently, in rereading AHM I found the answer you asked in regards to why the Decepticons were on Earth and not somewhere else. Earth was the last Autobot outpost in the galaxy. Once Megatron had kicked them off planet, Decepticons everywhere destroyed all the Autobot outposts rendering the Autobot army all but useless. So, yeah, they actually weren't JUST on Earth, but were everywhere else as well.

That's not actually what my question was referring to. No, I know that a great deal of the Decepticon army was elsewhere fighting other Autobot outposts across the universe. Rather, my question was more about, why did Megatron stay on Earth? With the Autobots gone, kicked completely off the planet and the humans offering no challenge, what was the point of staying there if he wasn't going to address the energon that made the planet of interest to him in the first place? Clearly the Decepticons he had with him didn't have enough to do, so couldn't he send them to help some other groups deal with the other Autobots or something, anything else? He didn't need them all there to finish conquering the Earth. Even if Megs was trying to weed out the unwanted elements, how was random violence on Earth supposed to accomplish that?

Megs also mentioned his reasons for sticking around was that he was waiting for Starscream to make up his mind on where he stood, which to me is actually the most plausible of reasons Megatron gave. Although I still think he could have just as easily done that elsewhere, or at least sent some of the Decepticons on Earth elsewhere, I think that it makes some sense that by making it seem like he was directionless after immediately defeating the Autobots would force Starscream to make a decision.

Oh ok. I misunderstood your question before then. Ok, well as for why he stayed there, um, he's a conqueror, not a locust. The Decepticons aren't going through using resources and leaving devastation in their wake, they're creating an empire, occupying territory. When you're conquering, you don't go in, blow stuff up and leave, you stick around and leave troops there to maintain your presence. On top of that, the Decepticons had defeated the Autobots and kicked them off the planet, but they hadn't actually "conquered" the planet as the majority of Earth citizens weren't even aware of their existence. So on top of weeding out certain elements from the Decepticon ranks, he's also making their presence known and declaring Earth to be an outpost under the Decepticon Empire.

Shockwave wrote:My contention is that the "true" test of someone's character isn't REALLY tested in the usual ho hum 9-5.

Where did this "tested" thing come from exactly? I don't believe you need to "test" a person to gain a sense of their character, or that "testing" them would even give a "true" sense of character. And let's face it, a Transformer's "usual ho hum 9-5" is hardly "ho hum" what with a war that's lasted millions of years.

Ok, well as for why he stayed there, um, he's a conqueror, not a locust. The Decepticons aren't going through using resources and leaving devastation in their wake, they're creating an empire, occupying territory. When you're conquering, you don't go in, blow stuff up and leave, you stick around and leave troops there to maintain your presence.

Clearly the humans were no match for them, and Megatron had enough troops him him to conquer Earth several times over. Conquering is one thing, but AHM is what you'd call overkill.

On top of that, the Decepticons had defeated the Autobots and kicked them off the planet, but they hadn't actually "conquered" the planet as the majority of Earth citizens weren't even aware of their existence. So on top of weeding out certain elements from the Decepticon ranks, he's also making their presence known and declaring Earth to be an outpost under the Decepticon Empire.

Again, Earth was no challenge for them, they didn't need to put that much effort into conquering the planet. And I still don't see how this would accomplish weeding anything out.

Clearly they *would* need to put that kind of effort in, considering a small group of humans killed Rumble, and the entire planet wasn't conquered.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Shockwave wrote:My contention is that the "true" test of someone's character isn't REALLY tested in the usual ho hum 9-5.

Where did this "tested" thing come from exactly? I don't believe you need to "test" a person to gain a sense of their character, or that "testing" them would even give a "true" sense of character. And let's face it, a Transformer's "usual ho hum 9-5" is hardly "ho hum" what with a war that's lasted millions of years.

It's not an SAT so quit focusing on the word "test". That's not the point of what I'm saying. So now I'm going to try to say it without using the word "test". My point is that people say all sorts of things and act a way other than their true nature under ordinary circumstances, but when critical, unusual, unexpected or extraordinary situations come up, that's when things happen when people have to show their true nature. Anyone who really believes otherwise, that people show their true colors on the day to day ordinary lives and takes everything people say and do at face value, is both naive and gullible. People usually put up fronts, wear masks, lie and cheat and rarely show who/what they "really" are until something unusual, extraordinary or unexpected comes up that causes them to do otherwise.

And in the case of Transformers day to day ho hum, exactly, the war's been going for millions of years so war IS the day to day ho hum for them. At this point, I'm guessing Ironhide's usual daily routine is boot up in the morning, act tough, punch Decepticons for several hours, shut down for a while, boot up the next morning and repeat. There's hardly any "real" character development in that, which is pretty much all we've gotten from Ironhide in the last 25 years.

Sparky Prime wrote:

Ok, well as for why he stayed there, um, he's a conqueror, not a locust. The Decepticons aren't going through using resources and leaving devastation in their wake, they're creating an empire, occupying territory. When you're conquering, you don't go in, blow stuff up and leave, you stick around and leave troops there to maintain your presence.

Clearly the humans were no match for them, and Megatron had enough troops him him to conquer Earth several times over. Conquering is one thing, but AHM is what you'd call overkill.

What the Nazis did was overkill too. But that's what a ruthless evil dictator does, which is what makes them villains.

Sparky Prime wrote:Again, Earth was no challenge for them, they didn't need to put that much effort into conquering the planet.

No kidding, that's why they had pretty much succeeded by issue 3. Well, more or less, they had at least taken control of North America, China and Isreal by that point and the rest of the world was united in nuking the hell out of them.

Sparky Prime wrote:And I still don't see how this would accomplish weeding anything out.

Then clearly you missed the point of the story. Megatron spells it out in issue 5 in no uncertain terms. The Decepticon Army as an organization is intended to be one where it's survival of the fittest and the stronger you are the more power you have within that organization. Megatron also clearly states that he has had to tolerate members of his organization that don't live up to his ideal of the perfect Decepticon and that letting them pursue their petty vendettas would weed out those unwanted individuals. Presenting them with an inferior force allowed them to pursue such vendettas. The other purpose was to push Starscream into deciding what role he would play in the future of the Decepticon Empire. So there were three reasons for staying on Earth:

1: Officially conquer the planet (you know so that they'd actually "know" they were conquered)
2: Allow troops to pursue personal vendettas, leaving only the strongest members to continue to serve in the new Decepticon Empire.
3: Push starscream into making a decision to try to take over or follow Megatron loyally.

Ultimately Megatron failed for a multitude of reasons, but that's what he was going for. The fact that Earth is no real challenge is more or less irrelevant to all of that.

Onslaught Six wrote:Clearly they *would* need to put that kind of effort in, considering a small group of humans killed Rumble, and the entire planet wasn't conquered.

Are you sure Rumble was killed? Because he seemed to be perfectly fine by the next issue, siding with Starscream's coup.

Shockwave wrote:My point is that people say all sorts of things and act a way other than their true nature under ordinary circumstances, but when critical, unusual, unexpected or extraordinary situations come up, that's when things happen when people have to show their true nature.

I don't agree. People can surprise you (and maybe even themselves) by doing what you don't expect them to do, or what you'd think they are even capable of in extraordinary situations. This is no way to measure their "true nature".

What the Nazis did was overkill too. But that's what a ruthless evil dictator does, which is what makes them villains.

Way to deflect the topic with something completely irrelevant to what we're talking about...

The point remains, Megatron didn't need all of those Decepticons on Earth.

Then clearly you missed the point of the story. Megatron spells it out in issue 5 in no uncertain terms. The Decepticon Army as an organization is intended to be one where it's survival of the fittest and the stronger you are the more power you have within that organization.

No, you're missing what I'm saying and not really seeing all of what Megatron spells out in no uncertain terms. Megatron says he wants to weed out what exactly? "No infighting, no dissent". So how does he go about this? By infighting and dissent. So how exactly does this plan to weed out the unwanted elements in the Decepticons supposed to work exactly? Sure, only the strongest would survive, but he's basing the process on exactly on what he wants to do away with, which makes absolutely no sense and Megs is smart enough he should realize this plan isn't going to get him very far.