Comics are Awesome III

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andersonh1
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

Post by andersonh1 »

Dominic wrote:And, here is some fodder for discussion.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10/20/ ... -band-aid/

At this point, I am guessing that New 52 will be undone during quarter 2 of next year, and will be gone (as if it never happened) by quarter 4, maybe even quarter 3.
I would be surprised if they get rid of it entirely, but if nothing else, it looks like DC is tired of launching series that get cancelled in six months, and they want to try something new. This sounds like the type of thing they should have been trying three years ago, honestly. All that media attention and boost in sales from the reboot, and all wasted because they wanted a darker, grimmer universe with boilerplate superhero storytelling that was nothing new. How much talent did they drive off with heavy handed editorial control? Quite a bit.

I"m not sure the bunch in charge now can produce a good product, but I'll hope for the best. I'd love a full scale reversion to the old universe, with a return of the excised continuity and character relationships, not to mention getting the old costumes back, but I"ll be surprised if that happens. I suspect, if anything, DC will change things in the direction of trying to make the books and tv/movie designs and backstories as close as possible. They've already started with Green Arrow. Don't be surprised if Barry Allen changes to more closely resemble his current tv counterpart.
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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Dominic wrote:At this point, I am guessing that New 52 will be undone during quarter 2 of next year, and will be gone (as if it never happened) by quarter 4, maybe even quarter 3.
Fuck me, then what the hell was the point of all of that? See, this is why I don't read comics, because whatever you read winds up pointless a year or two later anyway. Also, it's shitty storytelling. "Ok, so this happened, except it didn't, this other thing happened instead, but really it was the first thing all along that wait, no didn't really actually happen."

If they really want two different versions of their stories, that's fine, but just make them separate continuities like Marvel did with Ultimates.

Except Marvel does that now too, with both the 616 AND Ultimate continuities. Maybe comic book movies is going to be good in the sense that they might actually cause the books themselves to try to stick to one single story and continuity rather than the pointless rewrites and retcons that we have now. Or mabye comics will just die altogether and the characters will soon be only on movies and tv. Which would suit me just fine.
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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Shockwave wrote:then what the hell was the point of all of that? See, this is why I don't read comics, because whatever you read winds up pointless a year or two later anyway.
It depends on the writer or general editorial policy. There have been times when events from thirty years before were referenced, and sometimes even spawned a new story. But I think we're well past the point where the integrity of their fictional history matters to DC. How can they hype things and sell a few more books this week? That's all that matters to them now.

If the reboot had been good, that would be one thing. I'm all for DC admitting that it's not been all that good, the opportunity has been squandered and more has been lost than gained, and it's time to try again. The New 52 was stupid from a storytelling standpoint anyway. As an attention getter and sales generator it was a huge success, for a while. Things have slowed down again. The anniversary of the Crisis is a good opportunity to bring a lot of things back into continuity that should never have been thrown out in the first place, if DC has the sense to see that.
Also, it's shitty storytelling. "Ok, so this happened, except it didn't, this other thing happened instead, but really it was the first thing all along that wait, no didn't really actually happen."
I hate retcons. Universe altering retcons are even worse. Minor ones can be ignored.
Or mabye comics will just die altogether and the characters will soon be only on movies and tv. Which would suit me just fine.
I would not be surprised to see that happen. Sad, but not surprised.
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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Dominic wrote:"Amazing Spider-Man" #8 had an epic troll from Marvel/Slott,
Spoiler
killing the MC2 Peter Parker, MJ and another supporting character from "Spider-Girl".
They were c-listers. But, the fans were raging from the preview.
Were people really that saddle-sore about the deaths of supporting characters from a What-If book last seen four years ago? Comics fans are weird. People really need to get their priorities strai-

Wait, in last issue, Slott killed off Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends! The nerve of that monster! I'm going to boycott every Spider-Book, write an angry letter to Marvel editorial, and go throw a tantrum in my local shop, screaming until Slott personally comes over and un-kills those characters! It's only what a true fan would do.
andersonh1 wrote:Raising the price by 25% made no sense, and wasn't a slight price hike. It was a pretty hefty one, and there was no reason for it.
One extra dollar a month doesn't qualify as 'hefty' in any scope. As for the reason: Prices on pretty much everything, particularly consumables like comics, go up over time. That's how the economy works. The fact that comics have a perpetually shrinking user-base probably doesn't help either.
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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BWprowl wrote:Were people really that saddle-sore about the deaths of supporting characters from a What-If book last seen four years ago? Comics fans are weird. People really need to get their priorities strai-
Why is that weird? It's not just comic book fans that form attachments to characters and get upset to see them killed off you know. As I recall, Spider-Girl had quite the following that saved the series from cancellation on a couple of occasions. Not really surprising that not everyone exactly loves this development.
Wait, in last issue, Slott killed off Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends! The nerve of that monster! I'm going to boycott every Spider-Book, write an angry letter to Marvel editorial, and go throw a tantrum in my local shop, screaming until Slott personally comes over and un-kills those characters! It's only what a true fan would do.
I've heard the Spider-Man from the 90's cartoon was killed off as well.
Shockwave wrote:If they really want two different versions of their stories, that's fine, but just make them separate continuities like Marvel did with Ultimates.
The idea really isn't to do two different versions of the story though. It's about simplifying continuity to make it easier for new readers to get into and keeping the characters young, basically refreshing the storyline to bring in new readers and interest. Marvel generally tends to rely on a sliding time scale for that purpose (and killing/reviving characters), but there have been a few attempts at reboots from them over the years as well.
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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BWprowl wrote:One extra dollar a month doesn't qualify as 'hefty' in any scope. As for the reason: Prices on pretty much everything, particularly consumables like comics, go up over time. That's how the economy works. The fact that comics have a perpetually shrinking user-base probably doesn't help either.
A 25% price increase is huge.

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Comics used to be 10c in the 1940s, for nearly triple the pages we get now. According to the bureau of labor statistics inflation calculator, 10c in 1940 would be $1.70 now. You can't chalk this up to simple inflation, or else the standard comic would be $2.00, not $4. And as for the perpetually shrinking user-base, the constant increase in price is no doubt a huge contributor to that trend.

The point is, this was a blatant cash grab by Marvel. There was no extra added value for that extra dollar. It was just more of the same, literally. Could I afford that extra dollar? Sure. Was I going to reward Marvel for this stunt? Absolutely not. Not that they know or care. If the book continues to sell the same amount of copies, Marvel's now making 25% more than they were before, and I guarantee THEY notice the difference. An extra $30,000 or $40,000 every month isn't chump change.
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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Sparky Prime wrote:Why is that weird? It's not just comic book fans that form attachments to characters and get upset to see them killed off you know. As I recall, Spider-Girl had quite the following that saved the series from cancellation on a couple of occasions. Not really surprising that not everyone exactly loves this development.
And she's still alive, it was just some of her supporting cast that got offed. If anything, you'd think those fans of Spider-Girl would be excited to see her again, being brought into a big, relevant, mainline story besides.
I've heard the Spider-Man from the 90's cartoon was killed off as well.
Him I didn't see, though Spider-Man Unlimited was confirmed as killed in the same issue as And His Amazing Friends bit the dust. But it was always a bit nebulous if Spidey TAS and Spidey Unlimited were in the same continuity.
anderson wrote:Comics used to be 10c in the 1940s, for nearly triple the pages we get now. According to the bureau of labor statistics inflation calculator, 10c in 1940 would be $1.70 now. You can't chalk this up to simple inflation, or else the standard comic would be $2.00, not $4. And as for the perpetually shrinking user-base, the constant increase in price is no doubt a huge contributor to that trend.
I'm sure if comics were still printed on newsprint/pulp pages using only four colors and sold anywhere but tiny specialty shops, then yeah, their relative price would be closer to what standard inflation calculation would determine. But the whole of comics and how they're made and sold has changed so utterly that you can't compare them directly like that.

I'd still argue that you can't claim publishers raising prices is what's driving readers away, because if that was the primary force losing them business, they'd stop doing it. To me, it seems reactionary: Less and less people read comics as time goes on, so the prices have to go up to compensate.

Did you stop going to the movies when theater ticket prices went up too?
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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I hate retcons. Universe altering retcons are even worse. Minor ones can be ignored.
There is nothing wrong with streamlining and disposing of old content. Traditionally, DC has done a better job of that than Marvel. But, in the last decade or so (particularly at the direction of Johns), DC has have more complicating fixes than simplifying fixes.

As it stands, it looks like Marvel is heading towards a "Crisis" story. The incursions (and other events) in the Avengers books are implying a multiversal disaster. And, time was specifically broken in "Age of Ultron".

It depends on the writer or general editorial policy. There have been times when events from thirty years before were referenced, and sometimes even spawned a new story. But I think we're well past the point where the integrity of their fictional history matters to DC. How can they hype things and sell a few more books this week? That's all that matters to them now.
Current DC editorial makes 90s Marvel look good.

Part of the problem is that most of DC's readers are new/younger. Those guys do not know the tricks of the industry, so DC's antics are working on them. I had a conversation with one of them last Friday at the comic shop. The manager and I were talking about recent trends, and the kid was impressed with how much we knew and could call. But, all we really did was look back at the history of the industry.

DC is coming up on its third reboot in less than a decade. Up to the "Crisis Trilogy", this sort of thing meant something at DC. They had decisive stories that over-wrote old stories and then the company moved on. But, the changes were planned, if not always followed through on. "Flashpoint" was a last minute change with no planning.

Were people really that saddle-sore about the deaths of supporting characters from a What-If book last seen four years ago? Comics fans are weird. People really need to get their priorities strai-

Wait, in last issue, Slott killed off Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends! The nerve of that monster! I'm going to boycott every Spider-Book, write an angry letter to Marvel editorial, and go throw a tantrum in my local shop, screaming until Slott personally comes over and un-kills those characters! It's only what a true fan would do.
Dude, have you been reading CBR? There are people trying to argue that
Spoiler
MJ and love interst guy
maybe survived
Spoiler
the big explosion and fire, what with all the screaming and all.
People are looking for holes in the line about
Spoiler
May and Ben being the only avatars left
, because they do not want to deal with
Spoiler
the implication that it means that MC2 Kaine and the other spiders are dead
, even though "Edge of Spider-Verse" is a house-cleaning and that
Spoiler
MC2 is
a derelict line that is actually counter to Marvel's current directives.

I can almost see being more angry about the Amazing Friends, because that was purely for the sake of trolling fans. (If nothing else, why is Slott wasting page space for it?) But, the complaints basically come down to fantards who cannot let go of a cartoon from 30 years. ago. But,
Spoiler
wiping out the MC2 spiders
is part of an overall direction that Marvel is going in,
Spoiler
(specifically getting rid of all signs of Peter and MJ )
, and thus more justified.

Why is that weird? It's not just comic book fans that form attachments to characters and get upset to see them killed off you know.
But, comic fans are the ones who typically get *really* attached to characters, even when the character has not been used for years.
've heard the Spider-Man from the 90's cartoon was killed off as well.
A cartoon Spider-Man was killed. But, I think it was the late 90s cartoon. (The early 90s cartoon might be off limits for licensing reasons or something. Dunno. Need to find more information.)

The point is, this was a blatant cash grab by Marvel. There was no extra added value for that extra dollar. It was just more of the same, literally. Could I afford that extra dollar? Sure. Was I going to reward Marvel for this stunt? Absolutely not. Not that they know or care. If the book continues to sell the same amount of copies, Marvel's now making 25% more than they were before, and I guarantee THEY notice the difference. An extra $30,000 or $40,000 every month isn't chump change.
The problem is that the increases can be off-set by lower sales volume. And, the more money that readers are spending for individual books, the more that publishers stand to lose if/when those readers drop a book.

One extra dollar a month doesn't qualify as 'hefty' in any scope. As for the reason: Prices on pretty much everything, particularly consumables like comics, go up over time. That's how the economy works. The fact that comics have a perpetually shrinking user-base probably doesn't help either.
It depends how you are monetizing for "increase". In absolute terms, a buck is not much. But, by percentages, it is expensive (both as a percentage of the original or the new price).

Still, I cannot see dropping a good book because the price went up. As stated above, I am likely to drop the cheapest book on my pull-list because it is also the worst book on my pull-file.

"Earth 2" is one of the few times I have regretted my pull-file. After I drop the book, I am going to be stuck with two weekly books until the "drop" gets processed. Damn, I need to get caught up on that book so I can be justified in dropping in (rather than dropping it without giving it a chance). Even if I drop the book this week (and I am unlikely to get to the comic shop), I would be stuck with it until sometime in November.
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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Dominic wrote:I can almost see being more angry about the Amazing Friends, because that was purely for the sake of trolling fans. (If nothing else, why is Slott wasting page space for it?) But, the complaints basically come down to fantards who cannot let go of a cartoon from 30 years. ago.
At a narrative level, the scene (along with finding Spidey Unlimited killed) is there to let Spider-UK know that some Bad Shit Is Going Down.

You wanna know something twisted? I was actually happy and excited to see that page with Spidey and his Amazing Friends killed, because holy crap, Slott actually acknowledged Amazing Friends! He even threw Miss Lion in there, that's great! Okay, they're 'dead' now in Marvel Comics, but who cares, they were never IN Marvel Comics until now in the first place! I'll take the cute little reference! Especially since Amazing Friends will probably STILL be getting cute nods moving forward anyway. Hell, I read about Firestar and Iceman in Amazing X-Men just this week (that book's okay. Not Yost at his best, but I get the feeling that the co-writer on that one is pushing him in more annoying, Johns-ish directions)!
But,
Spoiler
wiping out the MC2 spiders
is part of an overall direction that Marvel is going in,
Spoiler
(specifically getting rid of all signs of Peter and MJ )
, and thus more justified.
Still not sure how much I believe this, we just BARELY got Peter back in Amazing Spider-Man, I can't see them shuffling him off again to replace him with Silk, or Kaine, or Spider-Gwen, or whoever else so soon.

If Marvel wanted to give Spider-Gwen her own series anyway though, I wouldn't complain at all.
"Earth 2" is one of the few times I have regretted my pull-file. After I drop the book, I am going to be stuck with two weekly books until the "drop" gets processed. Damn, I need to get caught up on that book so I can be justified in dropping in (rather than dropping it without giving it a chance). Even if I drop the book this week (and I am unlikely to get to the comic shop), I would be stuck with it until sometime in November.
Surely the store has a telephone? Why not just...call them up and tell them to cancel your subscription/pull/whatever ASAP and you'll pick up the remainder in two months or whenever you can make the journey across the Plains of Torment to climb the Eternal Mountain and enter the unspoken nether-dimension where your comic shop is apparently located. (Seriously, you give me crap about not getting out of comics just because I miss a book every now and then. If the only shops available to me were SO inconvenient to reach that I could only get to them once or twice a month, THAT would push me out of the hobby.)
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Re: Comics are Awesome III

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BWprowl wrote:Did you stop going to the movies when theater ticket prices went up too?
Mostly, yes. I don't go to more than one or two a year, when I used to go quite a bit more often than that.

Of course it's not quite the equivalent of an extra dollar for a comic. These days it's a question of buying two tickets instead of one so the wife and I can both go, and then we have to pay for a babysitter which adds to the cost, so it's not the simple equation it used to be when it was just me and my friends going to see a movie, and all I had to pay for was my own ticket.
I'm sure if comics were still printed on newsprint/pulp pages using only four colors and sold anywhere but tiny specialty shops, then yeah, their relative price would be closer to what standard inflation calculation would determine. But the whole of comics and how they're made and sold has changed so utterly that you can't compare them directly like that.
That's a fair point. It makes me wonder (and I genuinely don't know) why DC and Marvel and others left the spinner racks and grocery stores behind? I used to go down to a local drugstore and gas station and buy my comics off one of those upright spinners, or from the bookstore in the mall.

Newsprint wouldn't be any cheaper these days. Newspaper circulation has fallen so much that not as much newsprint is produced, making it not much cheaper than the higher quality paper.
I'd still argue that you can't claim publishers raising prices is what's driving readers away, because if that was the primary force losing them business, they'd stop doing it. To me, it seems reactionary: Less and less people read comics as time goes on, so the prices have to go up to compensate
I don't think it's the primary reason behind the lost business, but I do very much believe it's a factor. Yes, it's reactionary, but it creates a cycle. People drop books, companies raise prices, some people are driven away, companies raise prices again. Obviously the glut of other entertainment options competing for the dollar and the fact that people don't read as much are also major factors, but the rising price can't be left out of the equation.
Dominic wrote:It depends how you are monetizing for "increase". In absolute terms, a buck is not much. But, by percentages, it is expensive (both as a percentage of the original or the new price).
Exactly.
Still, I cannot see dropping a good book because the price went up.
No added value for the extra dollar is a good enough reason for me.

I'm paying $4.99 an issue for Multiversity, something I normally wouldn't do, but those books are longer than the standard comic so there's some justification for the higher than normal price. That extra value is there. And even then, I'd probably have skipped it if it wasn't a limited series, and if I hadn't decided to drop MTMTE which saved me $4 a month.
"Earth 2" is one of the few times I have regretted my pull-file. After I drop the book, I am going to be stuck with two weekly books until the "drop" gets processed. Damn, I need to get caught up on that book so I can be justified in dropping in (rather than dropping it without giving it a chance). Even if I drop the book this week (and I am unlikely to get to the comic shop), I would be stuck with it until sometime in November.
My shop will change the pull file same day. When I'm in to pick up my books, I'll just let them know to add this book or drop that one, and they'll enter it into the system then and there.
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