More than Meets the Eye (IDW ongoing comic)

[Sparky Prime]

I meant,IDW gave this explantion via the writers.

If it makes no sense,it should be dismissed as canon. next your gonna tell me,you consider the pig-alien in the 1986 season 3's episode as unicron's creator "canon" because it's in a episode written by a writer.

What are you talking about IDW gave this explanation via the writers? IDW didn't write this story, Roberts did. And what do you think canon is? Anything that appears in an officially-licensed fiction is generally considered to be canon. Discounting anything because you personally think it makes no sense would be fanon.

That's a weak/silly explanation given by the IDW Writers. The advanced TF tech would have detected this Faker in split seconds.

Why wouldn't they have advanced TF tech that's capable of fooling advanced TF tech?

[andersonh1]

I don't think that really works as an apt comparison here since, again, the way this story presents it is really going above and beyond mere impersonation and I don't think there is exactly a realistic human equivalent. While they aren't the original Ultra Magnus, they've taken his place so perfectly that apparently no one ever noticed in these millions of years. Granted it is a different pers... 'bot, but for all intents and purposes, they are also Ultra Magnus.

Again, I have to disagree. If Ultra Magnus was once a genuine historical figure, then he and he alone was the possessor of that identity. Everyone that's followed is pretending to be him. It's all a massive deception. The only reason it's not a human equivalent is that Transformers live for millions of years, and one presumes in this fictional reality that a robotic appearance would be easier to replicate and fake than a human appearance would be in the real world.

No, MTMTE has consistently shown us that these Transformers are unique individuals with hopes, dreams, ambitions and love, and not interchangable ciphers. Only the original was Magnus, the rest are all fakers. If, as some on TFW2005 have speculated, Tailgate were to gain the Magnus armor, it wouldn't suddenly make him Ultra Magnus. He would be tailgate in a Magnus suit. No more, no less.

Maybe the fact that Ambus is pretty much a blank slate is the barrier to me getting my point across. Let's take a hypothetical: instead of Minimus Ambus, let's take a long-established G1 character. Let's say that Kup hadn't appeared in IDW, and his first appearance was in that cell with Rodimus, where it was revealed that he was the bot under the Magnus armor. Same scenario otherwise, the original Magnus died and a succession of bots took his place, with Kup being the latest. Would you be arguing that Kup was really Ultra Magnus? At what point would Kup have ceased to be Kup and become Magnus? Or would he still have been himself under the armor, a seperate individual playing a part?

If they'd said Minimus Ambus had always been Ultra Magnus, and there hadn't been another before that, would you have no problems with that?

Good question. I think I would, because while that scenario would remove my objection to reading about an impostor rather than the original character, it still leaves "Magnus" as an assumed identity and Ambus as the reality.

On the other hand, make the little white robot inside the armor the real Ultra Magnus, and the armor some power suit he adopted to build up his power and reputation, or whatever, and I'm fine with a scenario like that. Have everyone think he was this big, tough guy and in reality he's rather frail and weak, and I wouldn't have any objection to it. Because it would be the genuine Ultra Magnus given some new backstory and character facets, not someone else using pretending to be Magnus.

[Shockwave]

The question I want answered is does anyone here actually beleive that when Simon Furman wrote Spotlight: Ultra Magnus that he intended to be writing Minimus Ambus in that story? I seriously doubt it and THAT'S what makes it a retcon. The previous stories were intended to show actual Ultra Magnus, not some chump imposter. I might be willing to beleive that Roberts may have had this planned out for Magnus since the beginning of MTMTE, but that would be about it. I'm not going to sit here and believe for one second that anyone before that beleived they were writing Minimus Ambus.

[Dominic]

The question I want answered is does anyone here actually beleive that when Simon Furman wrote Spotlight: Ultra Magnus that he intended to be writing Minimus Ambus in that story? I seriously doubt it and THAT'S what makes it a retcon. The previous stories were intended to show actual Ultra Magnus, not some chump imposter. I might be willing to beleive that Roberts may have had this planned out for Magnus since the beginning of MTMTE, but that would be about it. I'm not going to sit here and believe for one second that anyone before that beleived they were writing Minimus Ambus.

Truth.

(I am not against the retcon. But, let's call it what it is.)



On another note: What is the big deal with "cold construction" in the recent issues? (Remember, I am no long reading the comic, so I am going to be missing some pretty basic plot points.)

[BWprowl]

But they aren't Magnus. Let's make this even more personal. Suppose something happened to me, and I'm dead. I was on vacation or something, so no one I know is aware of this. Someone decides to disguise themselves to look like me, commit to living my life, taking care of my family and taking my career. Is that person me, or someone impersonating me? I think the answer is obvious.

That doesn't really match up with the context of the comic here. It'd be more like if, just now, after we've all been talking to you online for all these years, and you were the only andersonh1 we ever knew or talked to, you revealed that there was a previous online-TF-fan named andersonh1 and after he died by getting trampled by fangirls at BotCon, you started using his screen-name. It would certainly raise some questions of us about you, and develop your 'character' a bit further, but it wouldn't change the fact that you were the only 'andersonh1' we'd ever known or interacted with, and you were still YOU as far as we were concerned. That's the thing with AmbusMagnus in this context: As far as this story and universe is concerned, he's the only 'Ultra Magnus' we've ever known. You claim that you somehow had emotional investment in the 'real' Ultra Magnus, but how? You literally never read about that guy! For all intents and purposes, Minimus Ambus is the Ultra Magnus of this story. Just as Galvatron is a not-Megatron former Cybertronian explorer in this continuity, and Waspinator is a Decepticon Titan-Hunter in this continuity, 'Ultra Magnus' is a suit of armor and legacy identity passed down to various other bots. That's just...what it is here.

If Tailgate gets the Magnus armor (inneresting idea), then he'd be 'Tailgate, the new Ultra Magnus'. Similarly, if it were revealed that an established character like Kup were the one under the armor, then it would be "Oh, Kup is Ultra Magnus in this continuity" because that's just...how it works.

(Just thought of this aside: Anyone see that old Simpsons episode where it turns out Principal Skinner is actually another guy using the name and identity of his former army commander, Seymour Skinner, wanting to carry on his legacy after he thought he died? Well the 'original' Skinner turns up alive and takes his life back, but at the end the townspeople all oust him and bring 'fake' Skinner back and let him carry on with the name, family, and life, because he was the only one they'd ever known, and was the 'real' Seymour Skinner as far as they were concerned. I dunno, I found it funny in that it mirrored the situation here with anderson going "I don't want to read about Ultra Magnus anymore since he wasn't the first Ultra Magnus. I'd rather read about the first one even though I never read about him and have no idea what he would be like".)

One last thing on this: Were this someone's first TF comic-continuity and they'd never read any other iterations of Ultra Magnus where he's just Ultra Magnus and has only ever been the only one, they probably wouldn't take too much issue with this reveal.

On another note: What is the big deal with "cold construction" in the recent issues? (Remember, I am no long reading the comic, so I am going to be missing some pretty basic plot points.)

'Constructed Cold' refers to Cybertronians who had their Sparks generated by harvesting the Matrix, rather than spawned from Primus by that process they detailed a while back that I can't fully remember. They basically bled energy from the Matrix to make new TFs. Furthermore, Tyrest claims that every Autobot who was convicted in the Aequitas trials was one who was Constructed Cold.

[Shockwave]

And still waiting for an answer to my question.

Honestly I don't have a problem with this concept, had it actually been the concept from the beginning. Like if there had been a scene in his Spotlight that showed Minimus removing the armor for a moment or whatever, then fine. But they had an established "Ultra Magnus" that actually was UM until now when Roberts has decided that it wasn't. Again, the main difference is that I don't beleive for one second that any of the previous stories intended this. Ever. Not Spotlight, not AHM, not Ongoing, none of it. I don't beleive that either Furman, Costa or McCarthy were writing UM as anything other than just UM nor do I beleive that they were intending to write Minimus.

[Sparky Prime]

Again, I have to disagree. If Ultra Magnus was once a genuine historical figure, then he and he alone was the possessor of that identity. Everyone that's followed is pretending to be him. It's all a massive deception. The only reason it's not a human equivalent is that Transformers live for millions of years, and one presumes in this fictional reality that a robotic appearance would be easier to replicate and fake than a human appearance would be in the real world.

I'd very much disagree with that. The only reason it's not a human equivalent is hardly because humans don't live for millions of years. Do you really think a human could assume another's life so completely like that? To the point no one could even tell the difference, and managed to keep it secret for millions of years? That's a lot more than appearances you'd have to replicate perfectly.

No, MTMTE has consistently shown us that these Transformers are unique individuals with hopes, dreams, ambitions and love, and not interchangable ciphers. Only the original was Magnus, the rest are all fakers. If, as some on TFW2005 have speculated, Tailgate were to gain the Magnus armor, it wouldn't suddenly make him Ultra Magnus. He would be tailgate in a Magnus suit. No more, no less.

MTMTE also likes to push boundaries on Transformers concepts like that though. Sure if Tailgate (or any other established character) simply put on the armor, he wouldn't be Ultra Magnus, but as I said above, it'd take more than simply putting on the armor to become Ultra Magnus. Appearances alone isn't going to to make someone Ultra Magnus or believe he'd never been killed, especially those that knew the original. Also, I don't think Tailgate could wear the armor. We don't know if he's a .1 percenter. I know a lot of people speculate on his innermost energon color, but Ratchet had mentioned it would curdle given his condition.

Good question. I think I would, because while that scenario would remove my objection to reading about an impostor rather than the original character, it still leaves "Magnus" as an assumed identity and Ambus as the reality.

On the other hand, make the little white robot inside the armor the real Ultra Magnus, and the armor some power suit he adopted to build up his power and reputation, or whatever, and I'm fine with a scenario like that. Have everyone think he was this big, tough guy and in reality he's rather frail and weak, and I wouldn't have any objection to it. Because it would be the genuine Ultra Magnus given some new backstory and character facets, not someone else using pretending to be Magnus.

I still don't see the big deal then. Ambus both is and isn't Ultra Magnus. The only difference is he wasn't the only one or the original having become more of an identity in this continuity.

The question I want answered is does anyone here actually beleive that when Simon Furman wrote Spotlight: Ultra Magnus that he intended to be writing Minimus Ambus in that story? I seriously doubt it and THAT'S what makes it a retcon.

Obviously when Furman wrote that story the concept of Minimus Ambus didn't exist yet. But did Furman establish anything in that story that says otherwise about Ultra Magnus? It's a bit of a retcon, but that's not because of what other authors may or may not have intended.

[BWprowl]

And still waiting for an answer to my question.

Honestly I don't have a problem with this concept, had it actually been the concept from the beginning. Like if there had been a scene in his Spotlight that showed Minimus removing the armor for a moment or whatever, then fine. But they had an established "Ultra Magnus" that actually was UM until now when Roberts has decided that it wasn't. Again, the main difference is that I don't beleive for one second that any of the previous stories intended this. Ever. Not Spotlight, not AHM, not Ongoing, none of it. I don't beleive that either Furman, Costa or McCarthy were writing UM as anything other than just UM nor do I beleive that they were intending to write Minimus.

It's called a retcon. Welcome to comic books.

Roberts had an interesting idea for expanding on this 'Ultra Magnus's character and backstory in a way that this reimagined continuity would allow for, and he took it.

I doubt any of the previous writers who handled the Matrix in previous stories in IDW continuity intended it to actually have a star-map to the Knights of Cybertron inside of it. Previous writers probably had no intention of Thundercracker being a Titan Hunter way back in his past. Not to mention the early, Furman-written Shockwave in this continuity certainly wasn't done so with the intent that he'd been a lively Autobot Senator. But no one pitched a fit when those 'reveals' came about. You just accept that the writer is expanding on backstory in ways the established continuity will allow without stepping on the toes of what other writers have written, and go with it.

[Shockwave]

The Shockwave thing was at least alluded to way before the recent stories (I think it was back in Ongoing?) so that wasn't that big of a... shock? Sorry, couldn't resist.

I dunno, this thing just feels like a dick move for some reason.

[andersonh1]

Yeah, because we never get to actually read about Ultra Magnus. He doesn't exist in IDW continuity, though he did before this retcon changed that. That's what irritates me so much about it. We had an all new, different and interesting take on Ultra Magnus, and now we've got a skinny little pretender with a moustache who isn't Magnus at all.

Despite what Sparky and BWProwl insist, if all it took to be a person was to assume their identity, ID theft wouldn't be a problem in the real world, would it? "You stole Mr. Smith's credit card number! Fraud!" "No, I'm Mr. Smith too." "Ok, that's alright then."

That's the thing with AmbusMagnus in this context: As far as this story and universe is concerned, he's the only 'Ultra Magnus' we've ever known. You claim that you somehow had emotional investment in the 'real' Ultra Magnus, but how? You literally never read about that guy!

I did read about him... until Roberts retconned it. That's the danger with retcons. They're not all equal, they don't all have the same effects. Sometimes they explain plot holes, sometimes they add to a story, and then sometimes they change everything and take something away, and that's what's happened here.

'Ultra Magnus' is a suit of armor and legacy identity passed down to various other bots. That's just...what it is here.

Yes, that's what it is now, thanks to the retcon.

Do you really think a human could assume another's life so completely like that? To the point no one could even tell the difference, and managed to keep it secret for millions of years? That's a lot more than appearances you'd have to replicate perfectly.

It wouldn't be that hard. The only place it would be difficult is with people who actually knew the individual who the impostor is attempting to mimic. For the vast millions who have never actually met the original face to face, how hard could it be? Let's say Ultra Magnus was like one of the generals during the Iraq War, and all most of them knew of him was repututation based on a few news reports, a few video clips and a few still images. It wouldn't be hard to fake his continued survival for those Transformers who had only ever seen him from a distance, if at all.

I still don't see the big deal then. Ambus both is and isn't Ultra Magnus. The only difference is he wasn't the only one or the original having become more of an identity in this continuity.

He isn't Magnus, he's impersonating Magnus. He's a replacement character, not the genuine article.